The Five Reasons Law Firms Do Not Hire You After an Interview

[00:00:00] Today I'm going to be talking about the five reasons that. Law firms and legal employers typically do not hire you after interviews. And another thing that's important to understand about this presentation is this also is a way obviously to get in physicians as well after an interview.

[00:00:18] And if you do these things correctly you will get to interviews. And this is, really what I've seen based on, decades of experience in this profession and watching. Law students and attorneys here are the ones that get jobs and are the most effective.  The thing you need to realize is that, when someone is inviting you into an interview, they really don't care about your resume.

[00:00:39] And in fact, when someone's inviting you in there's someone that sees your resume and. Really hopes. They really want you to get the job. They want it, they want to hire you. And it's these five things I'm going to talk about if you do them in properly, that typically disqualify people from getting jobs and,  an illegal employer may not hire you buy because they'll [00:01:00] say, Oh, your experiences and right.

[00:01:01]After interviewing you and stuff, but that's almost hardly not the case. Th the reason they're not hiring you is because.  You're doing something wrong in terms of one of these five questions and people that fix these five things almost always ended up going into interviews and doing very well.

[00:01:17] And the people that kind of instinctively understand these five things, almost always get jobs and the people that don't understand these five things. Don't. So it's very important, to really get the gist of what I'm talking about today. And if you do, you're going to do very well.

[00:01:33] So the five questions are does this attorney generally we in generally want the job we'll want to work here. I'm sorry. So the first one is will this attorney let's see. I'm sorry. Give me a second here. Yeah. Does this attorney generally. I want the job I want to work here.

[00:01:48]This attorney support me in the cabin. The bath is another one. And then does this attorney, will this attorney to do the job? We wait the way we expect it to be done and we'll this attorney and make us look good. And do they [00:02:00] represent how we want to see ourselves? And then the final one is, do I like this attorney more than the other people I'm interviewing with the first four?

[00:02:09]You really have control over. And the last one you don't always have control over, but if you do the four things first part things, then you'll typically the person will like it. So the first one is, will this attorney support me and have my back. So it's important to understand that,  if you're a practice fishing, an attorney, I'm sure you realize this.

[00:02:30]Many law students don't, but. The legal world is a very difficult place to be in. And, attorneys are constantly surrounded by people who question you tell you're not good enough undermine you and exclude you. And many attorneys inside of law firms in particular, retire early.

[00:02:48] I know some lots of attorneys that are retired early and just. Feel very stressed out about their jobs. And it's one of the hardest jobs out there. It really is, especially in large competitive law firms, but [00:03:00] all law firms are very stressful for people to work in. And most attorneys, regardless of who they are, even in house attorneys feel very stressed because.

[00:03:09] They take the brunt of legal problems. Legal in-house attorneys will, lose jobs when something goes wrong. It doesn't even have anything to do with them. And then they'll have to take the blame for it. So it's very difficult. And even getting into law school is tough.

[00:03:22]Very few attorneys get into all the law schools they want to or even the law school, they want to most attorneys don't get interviews with all the law firms they want to, or get jobs clients. As a general rule are going to be unhappy half the time. And they're always questioning bills and, attorneys are undermined by their peers.

[00:03:40]They're laid off and fired and the economy's bad, or sometimes for no reason at all. They get humiliated in front of their colleagues and it's just a very difficult job. And I think everybody here that's an attorney knows how difficult it is and it's also difficult. When you're looking for a job and facing rejection and just, it's [00:04:00] very, tough and it's tough.

[00:04:01]Being an attorney, the hours are very tough. It's very tough. And and the thing to understand that is because of it's so tough for me. Most attorneys have lots and lots of insecurity. I know, tons of attorneys with.  With, serious substance abuse problems that are in my,  that I know are caused by the job.

[00:04:20] And I know lots of attorneys that have died in their early forties and, heart attacks and those sorts of things that I doubt they would have this in cancers and that they would have if they didn't weren't in these stressful environments and pushing so hard. So yeah.

[00:04:35]As a general rule, you need to realize that every person you're interviewing with the more longer they've been doing it or insecurity they have, and I can tell you that, I coach and I work with, some of the most powerful attorneys in the country. People that you have heard it probably.

[00:04:52]And and they all have lots of insecurities. Everybody does. And I know lots of very powerful people and they have been security. So everybody you're [00:05:00] interviewing with has lots of insecurities. And so the person you're interviewing really wants to know if you're going to support them and have their back because.

[00:05:10]An attorney inside of a law firm or wherever they are, is surrounded by people that do not support them and have their back. Even law firms partners in law firms are surrounded by people that don't support them and have their back. And it's a very hard job. And, it's very difficult to manage how alone and unprotected attorneys feel.

[00:05:30] And it's actually. The higher up you get the more alone a lot of attorneys feel associates can go online and they can gripe about their employers in each other which is hurtful to employers by the way. But they can, gripe about,  what, different things and they have each other and their friends and, the more successful an attorney gets.

[00:05:49]And the more, the higher they rise, the more they're likely to feel the taps and and be challenged both internally by their peers and externally by people trying to get their business [00:06:00] by, clients that may be unhappy. It's just a very difficult job. And and it's something that, you need to understand when you're talking to someone that.

[00:06:09] Whoever that person is despite whatever, however they may act towards you. And however, they may come across at that person is probably under a lot of stress and and feels very unsupported in this desperately looking to for people around them that are going to support them.

[00:06:27] And it's very important for them. To feel that, and the people that get jobs are always able to communicate that they're going to be someone that supports that person. And, I've spoken a lot about resumes and keeping things off that are likely to  communicate things that you may not be someone that supports your employer.

[00:06:47] And  and that's one of the reasons that I talk about that things, but this is one of the most important things and something. That very few people understand. But if you understand this it's, you're gonna go a long way in practicing [00:07:00] law. And also you're rarely going to lose a job not get a job or have issues advancing.

[00:07:05] And it's also that way when you're trying to get clients. If you're going in house or client as the company, but if you're trying to get clients, a client really needs to believe. But you're not just rotely performing a job that you really have their back and you're looking around corners and you're looking for things that they're not even anticipating and and that's part of what being a good attorney is.

[00:07:27] And and the best attorneys are really. Their clients think that they're willing to do anything for them. And it's more about the client than their ego and so forth. And it's that will get a new job. So we, like I said earlier, an employer wants to hire you. When they're bringing you in for an interview and the cost a lot of time and money, the attorneys are giving up billable hours to, in your view.

[00:07:48]They have to, recruit you, which is a lot of work and you put ads out or, pretty firms or, however, it's just, it's a lot and they really want you to work out.  Understanding, interviewing, and this, [00:08:00] what I'm talking about is help you employers want to hire you.

[00:08:04] And  the big thing to understand is, when a law firm is interviewing someone. The best law firms are the best at what I'm talking about. They're the best at surrounding themselves with people that they know will support them. And some of the top law firms in the world rarely hire even laterally.

[00:08:24]They just. They keep people very close to the vest because they want to make sure that they have a certain type of culture and that the people are trained in some of the things that I'm talking to you about with clients and and so forth. And I'm gonna talk a lot about all this today.

[00:08:37] So it's going to be there's a lot of information, but a law firm can survive. If it hires them properly, the only service it has us, its people. And these people are going to determine, what happens and inside of the law firms. This is, once these interviews start, it's a very important thing for the law firm to make sure that it's hiring properly.

[00:08:59] And, when you [00:09:00] do get an interview just make sure that you're following these rules correctly, because it is the key to success. And many attorneys and law students are able to get every job that they're applying for. And this characteristic about supporting you  is really the most important one.

[00:09:18] If you remember anything from today you have to understand this because the people that don't get jobs are coming across as people who will not help their interviewers, though, they're coming across as not interested is people that. Look like they won't commit as people that don't have explanations for why they're leaving.

[00:09:36] Their last job is people that may have, personality conflicts in a series of jobs as people that are unavailable or, there are all sorts of things and prejudices that that an employer is looking for, that they want to really avoid and, everybody out there needs to be supportive regardless of who you are.

[00:09:55]Everyone has insecurities, you have been security is every human [00:10:00] has insecurity. It's even, the people that come across with the most confident have insecurities. Everybody wants to be accepted, everybody, of course isn't accepted. Everybody wants to be loved and cared about.

[00:10:10]A lot of what we do in society and jobs is because we, a sense of love and laughter we want, and and attorneys, very few of them really get the rewards they want.  It's sad. I know some of the most successful attorneys out there go through all sorts of divorces and so forth and  they have a hard time,  they're not close to their children and their families and they're there.

[00:10:32] You're not getting the support. The most successful attorneys, people that you've heard of.  They have very tough lives and they, so they may look good on paper, but they don't, aren't getting the support. So we, you need people, everybody, you included need people who will believe in you and see the good and not the bathroom.

[00:10:50] You and. And then make you feel like the person you want to be seen as and  it's very important.  We want people to see the best sides of ourselves [00:11:00] and you're going to succeed in interviews and you're going to get jobs and you're going to do well in life in terms of getting clients  and everything you do in your jobs.

[00:11:11] When you come across as someone who's going to support your interviewers and not someone who makes it all about me, or, when you support people arise and organizations, and they rise and law firms and they rise in the world to the extent that they're providing value and supporting other people.

[00:11:26] And that's something that you need to learn and, stop making it about you and really concentrate on how you're making the other person feel. And law firms and the people in them want to hire people that they believe are going to support and protect them. And they don't want to hire anybody that, they think will not help them defend them.

[00:11:49]There's all sorts of problems in, in society. And and there's all sorts of problems in inside of law firms and at the law firm or any current organization [00:12:00] is in a constant process. Of trying to bring people in that they believe are going to hire, help and support them and not take more than they give and be givers and and prop the people up that are there.

[00:12:13]And they're at the same time, they're in the process of constantly eliminating those sorts of people and wherever you're looking for a job, you may be looking for a job there because that sort of person is being pushed out. And everybody to some extent is like a race horse. It needs to be broken.

[00:12:30] And you may have lost jobs in the past or had problems in the past because you weren't supporting the employer or you weren't supporting your boss, or you were talking negatively about them, or you had personality conflicts, and that's why you lost your job. And that's why people, for the most part lose their job.

[00:12:45] They don't lose their jobs because they made a mistake in something. They don't lose their jobs because. Even when there's economic things happening when there's an economic crisis, Hughes and law firms are laying people off, they typically [00:13:00] will lay off the people that they feel don't support them and they will.

[00:13:03] Keep the people out, if they can, that they believe do support them. And and then if an attorney is leaving, they're going to take people with them that they believe support them. So it's very important to understand this dynamic and how you communicate that to the employers. When you're looking for a job and law firms want to hire people that they feel comfortable with and that are going to support them and they simply do not.

[00:13:28]Want to hire people that won't, and  if your interviewer really feels like you're the type of person that's going to support them, then they're going to be much more likely to interview and hire you and really the great hope of everyone talking to you what they really want.

[00:13:47] And they're hoping is that, someone comes in, with a sparkle in their eye and looks like they're going to. Really, put their head down and help you in whatever, the way that person needs help. And, even partners when a law [00:14:00] firms interviewing partners, they're looking for the same thing.

[00:14:02] They want partners that are going to help them and collaborate with them. And people want others on their side, you're getting the tasks, done, billing the hours they want protecting their interests. Telling them if someone's, if there's, someone's out to hurt them.

[00:14:18] And then there's, these people are really challenging to find. There, there's very few people like that out there. Most often, and,  with people they're not loyal and they're out for themselves and they're against us. And so you never know when you're hiring someone, I'm in a player doesn't who they can trust, but that's really what they want.

[00:14:38] That's. Deep down, it's that connection and the ability that someone. Has their bath and it doesn't matter. What, if you're from the same background, it doesn't matter. None of that matters. It matters having people close to you that you can trust. And it's very rare for people to be able to find that.

[00:14:57] And. That's what the employers are looking [00:15:00] for. And any way you can communicate them, it's like a bunch of stories today about how you can do that. It's going to be helpful to you. So my first legal job Our first law firm job, I should say. I was only a few months into it and I was asked to do a part assignment like on a Friday night for tourists, touristy difficult partner who sent this bond to prison by the way.

[00:15:22]But a he just was the kind of person that, wasn't. Was out for himself and hurting clients by over billing, I think, and and not nice to associates and but a mid-level associate was asked to help me with the assignment. And there was, I was very, I hadn't practiced law very long and I, and the assignment was very, I didn't really understand what I was doing because I had never done it was from further discovery type responses.

[00:15:49] And everything was very vague and the attorney didn't even give him the assignment and some someone else can. So the woman that the mid-level associate told me, I [00:16:00] needed to cover my back. And I needed to write down and document everything that happened with the partner. And I should be doing this with the firm in general.

[00:16:08] She actually told me like everything that happened. And and at some point,  she just kinda got into a frenzy and she opened her laptop and she opened this giant document and it listed all the slides she'd received when she was there. Things that people had said. Things she heard and all sorts of things during the time at the firm.

[00:16:27]So she was approaching her job in a very negative way, and it was very long. And I didn't look at it very closely, but I, it was enough to notice that she was keeping a diary that she could use against the firm at some point. And she, documented, written down everything wrong that never been said to her, every rumor, just pretty much everything.

[00:16:44] And. She, and she was someone that wasn't considered very good at her job that I learned later. And graduate of Harvard law school, a top a very smart woman. And but a few months later she left the firm after making a catastrophic error and assignment and, she wouldn't [00:17:00] have probably lost her job.

[00:17:01] , she hadn't been seen as someone that was against the firm and, I'm not judging whether or not she had, concrete reasons for writing everything down. But it did teach me  that there's people inside every element that are against the firm and they see themselves and, like in a.

[00:17:18] In a contentious relationship with the firm and the people in there. And and this particular woman had no allies and she, wasn't kind of part of the herd and and seeing it's not a supporter of the firm and there's probably all sorts of things that had happened to her in the past and made that happen.

[00:17:33]And and that probably hurt her. You need to understand that in every employer, there's going to be people that are versed to the firm, and there's going to be people that are supporters of the firm and individuals as well are the most important. And there's going to be people that are individual supporters of the firm.

[00:17:49] And there's going to be people that are individuals on the farming bonds that are not. So I've made, a lot of mistakes as well , in my career and I'll tell you a couple of them [00:18:00] today.  When you show, when people get the impression when you're working there, or when you're interviewing that you're not going to be a supporter, then they're less likely to hire you.

[00:18:09] And they're also less likely to keep you around. And they're looking for things in your rap, in your resume and your past that show that you may not be an individual supporter of people. Or you may not be a supporter when you get there because the passengers, the way you're treating them or, repeating itself, it's one, most people learn that you're not supposed to talk negatively about your employer in an interview.

[00:18:31] And that's just the facts. You don't, and when you're going to interview you, shouldn't be saying negative things about a previous employer. You should try to be as upbeat as possible because. People want to believe that you're going to be the kind of person that's going to be on the side of you that you're working for.

[00:18:45] And you're also on the side of the employer. So when I was young I was I don't know how all that was. Maybe 17 or 18. I was working as a valet at the country club near my house, and I get it. I dunno a couple of days a week and sometimes I get into an evening [00:19:00] and and then one busy evening a more senior valet and I were standing around and she asked me what I thought of my boss and.

[00:19:07] On a couple of occasions, one on the 4th of July and another he came, I had all these tips in my pocket, just all this money. And he came up to me and made me give him all his, all my money. And, I don't think that was legal, but maybe it was but I was very upset because I had worked very hard the whole day.

[00:19:25] And, it was very hot, almost passed out and then he took all my money. I didn't think it was fair. So I told her about this. And and I told her I didn't like it. And the next morning he called up my mother and said I was fired for talking behind his back. And the more senior valet had gone straight to him in my complaint, maybe she had the same complaint.

[00:19:44]Probably she had something similar happened to her. I was upset about it, but she had concentrated him with my complaint. And what had happened in was probably illegal. It was probably wrong. But he just didn't like the fact that I was talking behind his back and not supporting him. And because. It was a pretty [00:20:00] decent job.

[00:20:00]You just, pick up cars and, I can make a good living doing it and and not a good living, but it was good, summer money when you're in your kid. And, but the idea is there's plenty of people out there that replaced me. He doesn't didn't need to tolerate it and he very quickly let me go.

[00:20:16]And so when I got into practicing law, I started to have similar experiences. And and I'll tell you about like briefly, but it's at the last law firm I worked at, there was a female partner and her husband was also at the firm and she had gotten this incredibly challenging assignment working on international law.

[00:20:38] And there was a actually riots going on in the part of the world that were related to this. There were hundreds of millions of dollars involved and. And she'd gotten us time from a friend, but the woman  was someone that she knew. And and the woman had recently met the equitize from a equity partner to a non-equity partner.

[00:20:55] And, w was in, in a bad way and not working as much at the firm, but she had this [00:21:00] assignment and that she wasn't spending a lot of time. The issue was extremely complex because there were like I don't remember, but there was a law of three or four different countries.

[00:21:10] There was a Swiss bank involved where the money was, there was a third world country involved and there was United States involved. And then there was And the federal government wanted the money. And then there was a, I don't know, it was just all sorts of things that were going on. It was very difficult.

[00:21:22]At one point, I remember, working several nights trying to figure this out, all nighters. And finally I understood the issue and I was able to, take what it was probably a 50 page memo and get it down to, 20 pages make an understandable, but. When I tried to explain this to this woman she was angry because, she wasn't concentrating.

[00:21:44] She was, they'd just been equitized. She was, not in a good way. And she had  and she knew that I knew about her personal situation, the firm, and I couldn't, she got frustrated because she wasn't able to understand it. And literally, I'm telling you, this is the most complex thing I've ever worked on in my life.

[00:21:59] It was very [00:22:00] difficult. But she can be very angry with me and. And then she asked her husband to read my memo to see if he could understand what was going on and he read it and he was able to understand it fairly quickly, within probably 90 minutes. And and then. He called her in and we both sat there in his office.

[00:22:17] He tried to explain it to her and she still couldn't understand it. And and it required a lot of concentration to understand. I'm not saying that she was doing anything wrong. She probably had a lot of other stuff on her mind. But she would Matt and she was upset that she didn't understand it.

[00:22:33] And it was, she was embarrassed. And and then I realized that, she was angry with me. And. And I realized I had an enemy in the firm because, I went from someone that, had been interviewed by her when I went to work for the firm and supported by her. And I supported her engaged with the, the impression that I would always support her.

[00:22:51] I did a good job on the interview. But then when this happened I made the error of explaining to her husband when I was sitting there with him that [00:23:00] I've tried to keep delete to explain it to her. And she's mad at me and I don't understand what to do. And I was right.  But I should never have done that.

[00:23:08] And and it was just bad. And I went from being in a position where I was someone that she viewed as a supporter and and not the opposite way around. And it didn't really affect me at the firm because she was in trouble anyway. But at the same time it was an error.

[00:23:23] And when you, someone gets a impression that you don't support them it's a very bad thing. And especially if that person is in power and you need to be very careful. Many people believe that when they're interviewing. Just because they're qualified for a position and hire them and employers really do not hire people just because they're qualified and, at BCG attorney search, for example, I, everyone that I work with that interview with and I asked them all sorts of questions and I try to, elucidate these sorts of things.

[00:23:53] So I can. Convince employers that the person's going to have the back. And I O personally, a lot of my success to my [00:24:00] ability to,  make sure that people that go on for interviews understand things this way, and also that that they're represented,  and letters and so forth to the employers.

[00:24:10] It's the sort of people that we'll have people's back and in deemphasizing aspects of their experience. That may show the opposite cause anytime you're unemployed looking for, or anytime you've had a lot of moves on your resume law firms and other employers are always going to be nervous that maybe you're one of these kinds of people that will support them.

[00:24:30] And and it's not a good thing. The employers are always trying to figure out if you have that pack and and, you can get into interview sometimes even if you're the least qualified for the job. Not the most qualified and that's, one of my business secrets, that, and one of the things that I am able to bring to the table when I represent people, but you can get into employers if you're, even if you're less qualified for a job than if the employer thinks you're the kind of person that's going to commit and have their path, I see graduates of [00:25:00] Yale law school and other top places.

[00:25:02]Not get interviews and people from third tier law schools and so forth, getting interviews with, firms that are much less qualified and paper because they come across as someone, that may not be as brilliant. But as someone that is going to happy employers back and just think about, you would want.

[00:25:19] If you're an attorney like that, and you're under, assault all day by judges and clients and other attorneys and so forth. You want people they're going to have your back. And the other thing to know, when an attorney goes into a law firm, they're typically interviewing with associates, they're interviewing with partners.

[00:25:38] And associates also want people, they feel like you're going to have their back that are going to be, that aren't going to be trying to show them up that are gonna, do good work, but may not be frightening and a senior associate someone that'll do assignments for them and do a good job.

[00:25:52] And partners want the same thing. They don't want to hire people that they think are going to create problems, or they think me. Not committed. [00:26:00] Everybody wants to feel supported even, in some firms the, someone that's people that aren't attorneys like HR directors and so forth, or recruiting coordinators, they invite you and they interview.

[00:26:09] And they also want to feel that you're not someone that's going to undermine. No one wants to be undermined. Everybody wants to feel supported. Everyone everywhere needs to be supported and. And just because, you may be interviewing people that have, you are interviewing people that have incredible qualifications on paper and so forth.

[00:26:27]It doesn't mean at all that they don't need to be supportive. The most competent appearing people often need the most support.  One of the things one of the most successful and youngest, most successful partners, I know grew up in a bad neighborhood where from a young age, he was actually a gang member.

[00:26:46] And today he's in a major firm, in a major city, doing very well. And one of the things that he told me  was that, he became. So successful. He believes because he learned, from an early age, the [00:27:00] importance of, protecting each other and this gang would never tell on each other.

[00:27:05] They would always have each other's back if someone was against them externally. And and they were taught at a very young age, not very, teens, how the importance of not undermining one another and and when he got older and joined a law firm, he was able to.

[00:27:19]Learn, draw on his past. And when he interviewed with firms, she would commit that he would communicate in this way where people believed he would have the back. And and then he did the same thing with clients. And and then the other thing he learns interesting as he learned not to fight about money inside the law firms.

[00:27:39]In most law firms, one of the things, partners are moving. Firms all the time and and associates do too. And a lot of times what they're, the reason the partners are moving in particular is because, I want to get the most compensation and then they want every year, they're fighting to get the most compensation.

[00:27:56] And they're trying to, say who. Who gets credit [00:28:00] for bringing in a client, which affects the compensation that they're not wanting to split credit at their same. I knew this person before you did. And even though, and this just goes on all the time at every firm and it's just, it's exhausting and people get upset and, alliances form.

[00:28:15] And some law firms are literally like 50 different law firms inside of the law firm, because there's just these little groups of people. And this attorney instinctively felt that. He didn't want to be part of this rat's nest. He would do what gangs do. And he would share, credit.

[00:28:30] And again, those are robbery, they split the money. I don't know how it works, but he did whatever he could to. Be on the side of the sperm and to happily share origination credit. And he also did whatever he could to share his client's point of view and have their backs.

[00:28:44] And and he's been rewarded by getting lots and lots of work and getting this huge, one of the larger books of business in the country by not pushing back by making the clients feel he had the back and then making employers think they had their [00:29:00] back and this person started on the, a relatively small firm in this risen to great Heights.

[00:29:05] That's what happens when people believe you have their back and very few people out there really are able to communicate and that way, because this person shares origination credit and so forth he actually, doesn't have the same sort of stresses that most people in law firms have.

[00:29:22]That is a huge secret. He's not, there's not people that are mad at him all the time. He may not make the highest compensation. But this outlook of, really having people's back, having their clients back, which he really does and having your peers back and so forth. Hat is his mother enabled this person to go from.

[00:29:43]From, maybe the equivalent of novel like the second or third tier law firm to first-year law firm and, to making, millions of dollars a year at a very young age being curious without a lot of stress.

[00:29:55] And that's what happens to people that learned these things. And [00:30:00] and you should do what you can to learn this stuff as well, because. It will help you. When you're interviewing all their training, yeah. Most people is figure out if you're going to be the kind of people person that's going to support them.

[00:30:13] And they want to get the sense that you may see their point of view and protect them. And most attorneys never find a people that don't, but you can see, all around the country various attorneys that. And very successful attorneys, they typically have people that are very close to them, then their associates and become partners and so forth that they know have their back.

[00:30:35] And most successful partners have take people with them. Most successful associates are able to work very closely with certain partners that will have their back. And, if you want to make partner by the way, and I apologize for people that are listening to this that are already partners and so forth, but if you want to make apartment being made partner in a law firm, in most cases, you need a sponsor and that sponsor.

[00:30:58] Will be someone who [00:31:00] believes that you have always had their back and that's how it works. So people without sponsors don't make partner in law firms. And understanding this dynamic is important to not just getting a job, but to rising them, to being a very effective in your job.

[00:31:15] And, so you need to understand the whole idea of supporting and having someone's back and communicating that and really doing that because. You, can't no one, succeeds in a vacuum. You need, everyone needs people that have their back. If you're a well-known politician regardless of the level you're at, you need people that believe and see things from our point of view.

[00:31:34]Whether it's, you need a lot of people to support you. So your interviewer needs to really believe that you're going to support them. So years ago I was given the responsibility of interviewing someone for a position with a federal judge I was working for.

[00:31:50] And the top choice for the job, with someone who flew into where we were, the city I was in Bay city, Michigan from outside country, [00:32:00] outside the state. I think they came from, I don't know, California or something. And. The interviews are going very well. And the interviews typically, half day doesn't have to meet everyone.

[00:32:10]But one of the things is at the time there were reviews written by people that had been before the judge and written reviews. And then those were published in some book, that people could. Goodbye. And and and then our people, that could go through in the law library at school or whatever.

[00:32:26] And some of the reviews were less than favorable. They just, everybody that's in the public limelight in some cases, it's going to ha in most cases it's going to happen. It's going to upset people, not every powerful judge. Attorney politician or, anybody is have  people that are upset about them.

[00:32:44] And that's important to understand. If are interviewing with the firms there, people saying negative things. Typically, other people are mad at people when they challenged their self-worth, so if you say something negative about them on I did the woman I was working for [00:33:00] That challenges their self worth people are upset at it, challenge the status quo,  or they take sides against people or groups, it's just, but whatever reason no one was with that, no one was without it.

[00:33:10] And when you approach interviews and so forth, and you've heard negative things about firm, or you've heard negative things about a certain particular employer, I want to be very clear with you that. You know that you, first of all you don't know what it's like to be or what any employer I can tell you that I've spoken to the people.

[00:33:30] So just because one person has been upset because they may have lost a job or they've they're, they've had other things that have happened that made them upset. There's people that will go to any employer and look for trouble. So just because you've read things like that does not make it a bad place.

[00:33:46] And the best places typically. We'll often upset the most people it's just, it's kinda depends, but you need to understand that, if you go into interviews with the idea that there's something [00:34:00] negative about this employer and you're going to snip it out because you read a review somewhere.

[00:34:04] Or you heard somebody say something, you're going to show it and you won't get the job, so you can't think that you have to be looking at the positive. Now you can always reject jobs after you get them or ask questions after you get the job. But you need to be very careful because people do not want to hire people that they think are, the, the, I've heard negative things about them and in our paradigm.

[00:34:26] So this particular guy it was the top choice but he had read some reviews and and  Oh, he did he was very close to being hired and then he started asking me about some of the negative comments about the judge that he'd read.

[00:34:41] And how did I justify this? What was I going to say is if like I had to defend the judge and. I did. I descended the judge and you should always defend your employers. And and, and the judge learned about it and and and didn't, and the guy didn't get the job.

[00:34:58]I believe that they hadn't done [00:35:00] that. They would have gotten the job, but all they showed was that the person was, unable to commit to the judge's point of view. And and why would you want to hire someone that's coming in with these doubts and so forth? It would not be. The right thing.

[00:35:12] And the way he asked the question gave the impression he believed in it and that it was difficult, it would be difficult. And and  it's just, not something that you should be doing. You shouldn't ask people that justify negative things. You should understand that.

[00:35:27] Negative comments typically come when when a law firm or an employer is actually trying to enforce the quality of the people that are there and keep supporters there and not outside the firm. And one thing is, I if you want to know how I interview people I interviewed people all the time.

[00:35:47]Who don't get jobs because they appear too guarded.  And not like people that I believe are likely to defend me and be a potential problem. That's, honestly in most organizations, the process [00:36:00] of keeping people around and getting rid of people and hiring new people is really.

[00:36:04]Peanut people just want the employers just wanted to keep positive types of people around. And it's very important. And, I I personally, this is just me and it's not everyone, but I don't like working in large offices. I have offices that contain a lot of people, but I don't like necessarily working in them.

[00:36:24]I tend to. Not like them because there's all sorts of alliances and so forth that are going on and politicking between people there. And so I like people I prefer a smaller circle of people that are close to me that I can trust that have my back and I can rely on rather than being in this kind of giant, rats nest, is a way to put it.

[00:36:42] And most partners in law firms are like that. They keep a small group of people around them and and people. That they can trust and not the other way around, because they don't want people to say negative things about them and so forth. Once again, everybody wants to be supported and every interviewer is looking for this.

[00:36:58] And I certainly look [00:37:00] for this when I'm interviewing people and and everybody does and people want, there's no sense having people, if you're an interviewer or if you're an employer next to you or around you. That are not necessarily your supporters, because if they're not supporting you then  then they're undermining your efforts in front of your clients in front of your other people and people that aren't supporters, by the way, they bring everybody around them down.

[00:37:27] They sat the enthusiasm of other people and it's just a bad thing.   Some of the best people I've interviewed in the past. I'm just thinking back and, the past couple of years of phenom exceptional job when they're interviewing showing will be supporters even if, when they started they were not, they're good at their job, one guy who I'm thinking of not too long ago I showed up for a position  with a business plan,  and I think it was a second interview after we talked and in some things he would do to help me and opportunities I was [00:38:00] missing and improvements, he would help me make if I wanted to, based on what I said in the first interview.

[00:38:04] And I, that was like, I was amazed. That's a supporter and I was very.  Enthusiastic about him but unfortunately it was a sales position and he didn't have good sales skills, but he really had a lot of enthusiasm and it was really cool. And I felt like he would be supportive.

[00:38:22] He was hired. Another person came in for an interview and and I was talking to them and I'd maybe was a half hour into the interview and. And they had told me about several things I'd written that they liked and that I was under-utilizing and and that I could do different things with them.

[00:38:39] And I was very astonished that this person had taken the time to read things because their interview was for a position doing it related work. And and that made me feel like the person could understand my point of view and. It was a supporter  other things, people that I've seen have just showed up for interviews and done very well.

[00:38:58]They've smiled they've talked about [00:39:00] how they wanted to work hard. They seem to be okay. They respect me and they told me they wanted to help me build the business and everything. And and  and frankly, I'm also like attorneys surrounded by. People that are trying to tear me down and everybody is, and, so if you have people around you that are like you and respect you and make you feel important as an employer and interviewer you're really gonna want to hire them over people that don't, I'm just thinking.

[00:39:29]The other day we interviewed him and and I didn't wasn't the interviewer, but it was for an administrative role and the person was asked some questions about their experience and they said, Oh, it's on my resume. So you know, that person isn't gonna work out and the interviewer needs to believe that you liked them.

[00:39:46]They're gonna, they want to believe that they can trust you and all that's going to go a long way towards getting a position. You need to, the employer needs to think you liked them and  and they need to believe that, and they need to believe that you actually [00:40:00] liked them.

[00:40:00] And that's a hard thing to do. It's, interviews are not supposed to be about personal things, the employer wants to get a sense of whether or not they like you and they trust you or whether or not they think you like them because of the, think you like them. Then they're going to think you have their back.

[00:40:14] So that's why they always talk about things that are important. Like eye contact is important. They, and and people that don't get interviews. I had an experience, it was interesting. It was a couple years ago and I wanted to hire entry-level attorney and so I called U S UCLA and and they sent me the people, and this is what I wanted to do.

[00:40:34]It was in the, late fall. So these are people that had graduated and they'd taken the bar, but hadn't gotten yet jobs. And so the people that I interviewed from the career services office or the people that hadn't been able to get hired. And that was interesting because the people that came in were, had bad handshakes they're.

[00:40:53] They're  their eyes were down and they weren't making eye contact.  Would ask them questions and they would. They would not answer me [00:41:00] fully and, folds information back and and weren't communicating with a level of enthusiasm and and some people just, seemed dishonest.

[00:41:08]And I wouldn't say dishonest, but I would say not connecting, like in an honest way, like you didn't. Get a sense of, why they would, why you would want to hire them. Those are all kind of important thing and components. The interviewer wants to get a sense of whether or not they like the person likes them.

[00:41:26] And you need to connect with the people you're speaking to, it'd be likable and you really want to try to like the interviewer and not see negative and they need signals and in the most important thing to say, don't want to hire people. That are going to cause trouble.

[00:41:41] They want to hire people that are gonna sit down and, do the job and not make trouble. They want, everything they want to feel stress-free and they want supporters, you really need to think about that and people, by the way Our tribal animals.

[00:41:59]What happens [00:42:00] is, people come together and the people that come together tend to have shared interests and backgrounds, and we all need tribes. A family is a tribe, then your employer's a tribe. Then your, your city and your state and your country, all these are tribes.

[00:42:14] And but people come together against external forces that are hostile. A country has enemies.  Companies have enemies an accompany kind of is a group of people or a law firm that comes together. And and then they go out into the world to make money and they're supposed to protect each other.

[00:42:30] And when a lawyer is looking for people, they want to hire people that are part of their tribe and they look for reasons that you might be part of their tribe by having things in common. Schools are want of course, but interest or another. Backgrounds are another and there's all sorts of things.

[00:42:48]That they're looking for and your group, your employer of course is, part of that group that has people externally that are against them. And they want to have someone that [00:43:00] has their back.  Early in my career, I was interviewing for a bookkeeper to work with me. And I've had the experience of, since I was young, I.

[00:43:07]Hadn't run into an asphalt business in Detroit and had met all these successful business owners. And then and then I'd always, seen the notice that these successful entrepreneurs I met with always Tom very positively or, in a very positive way, know about their bookkeepers.

[00:43:24] And they would always kind of be somewhere in their office and they, whilst it may work for them for a long time. And I thought that was interesting. Why would these people that are so successful? I always have these bookkeeper response to them. And and so I realized that there was something between managing money and having people close to them.

[00:43:42]That was very important. And and and so there, there are like out there, it's, people that are good at bookkeeping and so forth, tend to stay with the same person for a long period of time. The same thing with attorneys that will tend to work very closely.

[00:43:55]With someone in their company for a long period of time. After countless interviews, the person I [00:44:00] hired with someone who'd worked for her previous employer for about 20 years before he sold the business. And, I realized that, she must've had she worked for him for so long and I hired her because I felt that, out of all these applicants that I had, I felt that.

[00:44:15]She would have my back and she sought, she signed, set up the interview. She was smiling happy. And her, the focus of her what she talked about when I would ask the questions was about how she'd helped her previous boss and how she had his back and, and and imitate it, and act like she'd be the exact same for me.

[00:44:33] And so I hired her and and she's been. Or she did end up working for me for over a decade and did a really good job. And  and that is the kind of person that employers want to hire. And anybody that shows that looks at  and gives the idea that they would help you and do a good job.

[00:44:51]When someone has her back, we want to hire them. We want to keep them around and. And you really need to give the employer, the idea that you're [00:45:00] going to have their back and if they can hide, if they believe this.  And compared to other people they're going to hire you and it's not getting hired is not about your resume.

[00:45:10] Once you get into the interview really is, your resume has something to do with it, but it's really not about your resume. It's about, the employer believing that. You're going to have their mouth and people that work there as back as well. That's really, if I was to boil it down to anything that's what they're looking for.

[00:45:28] They're also looking for that, by the way. I just want to be clear. They're looking for that in your resume as well. They want to get the sense of in your resume that you're going to be the sort of person that's going to have their back. Looking for. Signals that show, you may not be the kind of person that cooperates that you may not be the kind of person that's likely to leave, that you're not committed to working in whatever type of employer it is.

[00:45:54] They're looking for all sorts of things like that. And they want to have people that are going to have their back. [00:46:00] And and they're looking for clothes. They're asking themselves, does this seem the type of person that's going to talk negative about me? And others in the firm, mentioning something you read on on a review site about the firm, even if it's positive may spook them a little because it's going to make them think that,  you're also looking for bad information.

[00:46:16] They're looking to see, if you're asking questions about compensation or hours early in the interview  they're asking themselves, is this person going to be unhappy? With that and make an issue out of that.  They're looking for signs that you may leave at the first sign of trouble, is this person going to leave when things get difficult?

[00:46:33]Or, if there's any problems in our firm or with NATO, is this person going to leave with their problems? People want to feel loved. And so they want to feel like. You know that you're going to stick close to them and support them. And I, and it's just how people are. I'm not, it's not right or wrong one way or another, but that's just the way we're made up.

[00:46:50] And so people want to feel cared about. And and it's not in the same way your family cares about them, but it is that way. In a professional setting and and especially [00:47:00] the person that you're going to be working for and employers who are, probing, judging and really doing everything they can to figure out.

[00:47:07] If you seem like the kind of person that's going to have your back and have her back. And and they really want to believe that it's important, and just think about, what you've witnessed,  in society. It's just very polarizing. Everyone has different political parties.

[00:47:23] Some people care about it more than others and they take it incredibly seriously. These political views and, and groups get very angry towards one, another different types of people, and there's just general unease.  And every society between rich and poor between people of different races, and people are feel want to be around people that share that.

[00:47:44] So that first question will the security support me and how my bath is something. You need to really think about before you go into any interview and and make sure that you do whatever you can to communicate that. [00:48:00] And when you answer questions showing that, you work very hard and and commit to the people you're with.

[00:48:06]So the second question is, does this attorney generally wants it's a job and want to work here and. After I'd worked for a judge and was assigned my second job with a law firm in, two or three years. I was really trying to decide whether I wanted to practice law anymore.

[00:48:26] And so I was going out on interviews with law firms and I. Unlike my previous success when I was interviewing with law firms, when I was in coming out of my clerkship, where I got just about every in your job, I can, it'd be rude cause I really want it. To work in a law firm at that point in time this time I wasn't getting positions with every law firm I interviewed with, but I wasn't getting positions.

[00:48:53] This was a very different time to the market had been, had gotten extremely busy which was one reason I was getting some [00:49:00] interviews. I was always able to get interviews do well in screening interviews. Cause I would get enthusiastic and I would read about the firm and it was like. Fun, but after going in for full round interviews and so forth that every law firm would offer me a job.

[00:49:15] And and certainly I would say that I was probably batting very low probably, one in three or even maybe one in four. I was like getting offers from I wasn't doing well. And and I'm not saying that's, bad, but it, I was not getting jobs with firms, so I should have gotten the job because I really wasn't coming across as wanting the job.

[00:49:41] And one of the things that happens to a lot of attorneys when they get older and myself included but  when a tree's interviewed that are. 10, 15, or even seven or eight years out of law school, as they get cynical,  they don't come across as really wanting to work as much.

[00:49:59]They've [00:50:00] been there done that. They've had, build lots of hours and they're just not as enthusiastic about that as they once were. And then they have families and,  but one very well known and smart attorney that flown out to work to interview with a big law firm in New York, which firm was it?

[00:50:16]But it was for a job in their Los Angeles office. And there was a very well known attorney. I interviewed with a pretty famous attorney. I was Spanish. I was interviewing with him and he picked up very quickly. That I didn't want the job. He just said, I can tell you what I want to work, get this anymore or something along those lines.

[00:50:32] And he was very direct about it. And I loved that. I thought that was so cool. I was, I tried to. No convince them otherwise at the time. No you're wrong. And that kind of thing, but he was, he picked up on it and that's what law firms are picking up on and say, we're picking up that I really didn't want the job.

[00:50:48] And when you go into an interview, you need to look like you want the job. It's not necessarily. About the things you say it's about how the employer believe whether or not [00:51:00] they believe you. And you simply cannot fool your way into getting jobs that you don't want your resume, by the way.

[00:51:06]We'll usually tell the story if you want the job, but. People, when you show up to an interview, they want to see that you're excited and you really want the job and most smart law firms, like the attorney that interviewed me that said that to me, you can tell if you don't want to work for them they can tell if you've gone to work in a company because people that go to work in companies or want to come back, typically, don't want to work there.

[00:51:26] They can tell if you move firms too often, or you want to change practice areas, or you've taken a lot of time off.  These, all these things show that you probably do not want the job, but certain people show up and, they may have preconceptions and just ask questions that are troughs and, the odds of the employer wanting to hurt you are pretty low,  interviewed people for positions all the time and people that worked for me. And I'll just tell you that, in most instances,  if I'm like any other employer most. There's lots of applicants for every position.  There's more than, you can possibly get through  there's tons of them.

[00:52:00] [00:51:59] And the other today like I told you earlier, I was interviewing a woman for a woman where she was interviewing one for clerical disease. When she was asked about some aspects of her experience, she never replied, you can see it on my resume. And that's just a perfect example of someone that didn't want the job.

[00:52:15]If you're asked about your experience, you talk enthusiastically about an ask, answer the question. And I regularly interview people to work in the placement business,  at BCG it's just a critic from, and it's very challenging to get a job because I have, very high standards and certain ways of interviewing people.

[00:52:33] And I want people here that really want to work here and, if I get a hundred applicants, I'll probably interview. One person and out of those people every, the person that I interview, I really want to hire. When I've seen a resume, I'm like this person was perfect and I've learned, based on experience, a type of resume and stuff that tends to work when I hire someone here.

[00:52:54] And but I'll typically hire, out of a hundred people and maybe even more than a hundred, because. Maybe, [00:53:00] 200 or 300, I don't know. When I do interview people, I typically hire less than one 10 of them. And and the reason it's there's so few hires is the main one is they come across as not necessarily wanting the job.

[00:53:13] A lot of times, some were very good background will apply, but they won't come in. When knowing enough information, they won't. They w