I’ve Reviewed the Resumes of Over 500,000 Attorneys and Law Students: Here is What I Have Learned About How to Construct a Legal Resume

Transcript

[00:00:00] This presentation is a very important one because the resumes of almost all attorneys and law students need a ton of work. People are going to get jobs and.  In my career, I believe I've probably reviewed, over 500,000 resumes in terms of people that have applied to work with BCG attorney search and then also people.

[00:00:21] I'm from LA cross Cedar and other companies that I've had in the legal space. And I would say probably without a doubt, probably reviewed more resumes than anyone in history. Back in 20 years ago, I started revealing more than 20 years ago. I started reviewing resume the first time that people started actually submitting.

[00:00:39]Resumes online. I was one of the first people to actually get resumes via email so long ago. And when I started, actually I used to have a fax machine or actually several fax machines that people used to fax the resumes and into our various companies. And they were going these fax machines, 24 seven pretty much just setting them, see, resume.

[00:00:57] So I've seen, I see resumes [00:01:00] all day. Even today, I probably, reviewed a couple hundred resumes of people that have applied to what could BCG and then other resumes, fraternities.  So in terms of, the number of resumes I've reviewed, I would say I reviewed probably, almost half or close to half of the current practicing attorneys in the United States.

[00:01:17] So I've seen literally everything and not only that. But I know what works I've gotten thousands of jobs, fraternities by fixing the resumes and because I'm someone that's an illegal placement business, I'm incentivized to make sure that resumes work. Not only from the standpoint that I don't to hang up on my people that work convenient, get jobs, but also I don't want to waste the time of the law firm clients that I work with.

[00:01:42] I want the people that are seeing the resumes to want to see more resumes because the resumes. Are in good shape. So I know what to look for and without tooting my own horn I really believe that, what I'm about to tell you today is probably, unlike any type of resume advice you've ever gotten, [00:02:00] and I'm going to go into a lot of depth.

[00:02:02] And so you can fix your resume regardless of where it is and make it very good for the types of positions you're looking for. And the thing that upsets me so much is. You know that most people don't get resume buys from the right people. They make lots of mistakes and they may not be people get the resumes done, but people that aren't in the legal industry.

[00:02:26]And not only that but they don't necessarily understand the audiences and the law firm, audiences are all going to different, which I'll explain to you that. But when you're getting your resume done you really need to, most attorneys and law students, there's a lot of stuff you need to do to make it know better.

[00:02:43] And I want to tell you about that right now. I eat, breathe and sleep this. I can tell you that. Last night I was up till 10. O'clock reviewing your fiction resumes. I got up this morning, got in the office, introduced after six and I've been reviewing resumes. And this is all I do [00:03:00] every day is I fix them.

[00:03:02]It makes the jet streams, I eat and sleep, but, and I've been doing this for, a couple of decades and and I also get paid a lot of money to fix resumes. I. In some cases,  if I get her the right attorney a job, my fees are in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[00:03:15] Order for just getting one attorney a job. So I need to make sure that the resumes that I work with get the attention of the right people and also stick out.  As someone that's been doing this, I want to explain to you a little bit how the placement business works. I.

[00:03:31] I get calls from law firms and, and companies and so forth, but mainly law firms, rejecting candidates and expressing interest  and other people. And there's really specific patterns that I'm going to talk about that are on resumes of the people that get jobs and those that don't.

[00:03:47] And if you want to get a position I hope you listen to what I'm saying today because the resume is a very personal thing for people. Yeah. People want to communicate their experience and they want to communicate all their experience and they want to [00:04:00] communicate everything that they, and sometimes you don't really need to do that.

[00:04:04] So I'm going to talk all about that today. I'm going to talk about heading the resume. I'm going to talk about your education and I'm going to talk about the experience. And we're going to go into a lot of depth, so you can really get a good sense of the way you need to structure your resume. And I really hope that you take my advice because regardless of how senior you are or how junior you are, if you're a law student or what, whatever your experience says the advice I'm providing you really applies to everybody.

[00:04:31] And, I make placements with solo practitioners. I've made two of them or this week I make placements with major law firms. I make placements for midsize law firms. I make placements for companies and in each of those instances there's a lot of things that are on the resumes.

[00:04:47]That I made sure effects. So as a preliminary matter, I just want to cover some general resume housekeeping things. In most cases, your resume should only be one page. If you're a corporate or [00:05:00] transactional attorney include a transactional sheet on your resume I'm not going to talk a lot about transaction sheet today, but in general if you're applying for an M and a position you want to put your M and a experience on the top of their transaction sheet and other related corporate experiences on the bottom, if you're applying for a general corporate job, you can mix them up depending on what the firm does.

[00:05:22]But that's pretty much, yeah. Some people have longer resumes, but if you really need to communicate more than one page, there's generally a problem. The best resumes are often the shortest one resume. I remember seeing it was someone that had gone to Harvard law school clerked at a really good worked at a really good firm.

[00:05:41] And and, had there a couple of schools and the farm and said they were an associate and the practice area they were in, and that was it. And it was a great resume cause he didn't really need to say a lot. And if you don't always need to say a lot in your resume. So just who, regardless of your experience, try to make it only one page.

[00:05:59]The other thing [00:06:00] too, is that, there is some. Age discrimination in the legal field. And and because of that, people that have longer resumes typically will be thought of as, tired and and too much experience that you know, that people won't be able to tell them what to do.

[00:06:15] There's all sorts of negative connotations that I believe that employers have when they see a long resume long resumes, typically don't get people jobs and they just don't work. I'm sorry to say. If you're an older attorney and you've worked at a series of five law firms over 20 or 30 years, you can just list, that you were a partner in several law firms, or you were an associate and partner at several law firms and in one or two lines and list the name of the firms.

[00:06:40] And you can, I'm even seeing people. I know one very good attorney that for whatever reason, switches, perms, Every five, no, I'm sorry. Like every one or two years and has been doing this for at least 25 years. And he just lists that he worked at several firms, including, and then, and then listed the [00:07:00] day, where he was an associate and then when, partner and it works and, you don't want to list I have a very long resume to the extent you can.

[00:07:07]The other thing is in terms of the font on your resume please don't use multiple colors. Only use one color. Law firms are almost every single one of them are conformist environments. And so our  companies but not all of them I would definitely recommend.

[00:07:24]Only keeping your resume one color just don't use red, don't use blue just use one color and, it should only be black and people that put colors on their resume draw negativity. She turned themselves anytime something's different. And an attorney attorneys are like sharks.

[00:07:40]They're made to recognize something. That's not right. And, and then pounce on it and, that's what a shark does. Sharks typically will attack dying animals or, fish because they can, they give off like a different type of movement and you don't want your resume to be in multiple colors, just make a black you should only use like a very simple font, [00:08:00] like times new Roman, not fancy fonts.

[00:08:02]You shouldn't be using multiple fonts. And you shouldn't have things that are different sizes or lions going through different areas and breaking things up into boxes and so forth. You're just going to be showing your hard to control and then likely to fit in. And so many people want to express their individuality through resumes and,  you just, you can't, I'm sorry, but you have to be very straightforward, direct.

[00:08:26]And so forth on your resume, that's really the only way that it's work.  Please take my advice. I know that someone that has a resume that doing all this stuff that they're very proud of and looks good may want to change things, but just don't do this. The other thing too is.

[00:08:41] You know that, a lot of times people do not spend a lot of time proofreading their resume and it can liars are paid at all levels to be very wound up about details. The better the liar, the more detailed they are. I've seen, some of the best lawyers the best firms.

[00:08:59][00:09:00] I've seen them. Spend weeks proofreading a corporate document.  It's insane, but that's really what attorneys are paid to do. They're paid to, turn out very good work product. And when you have errors in your resume that's a turnoff, the larger the firm you go, so it also needs to be concise and to be as very concise and direct language you can use action verbs in your Experience, but other than that, you need to be pretty you need to be very active.

[00:09:26] Correct. And I had an offer once withdrawn I got the off the bat, but but almost withdrawn because I had a date wrong on my resume. This is what the major New York law firm I had quit June instead of may for my law school graduation date. And the fourth year associate after the law firm had made me an offer a fourth year associate with given the role of doing a white background check.

[00:09:50] And he found this air and I had just assumed it was made because what had happened was I got out of classes in may and then the graduation was like a week or so, or [00:10:00] 10 days later. But anyway, he discovered this because the data on my transcript was different than the date. In my resume and thought that this was just a horrible thing.

[00:10:09] And and the, in the law firm ultimately that may start, but the idea was, is that I've made an error, just an, a date. And and that showed a lack of attention to detail, which they valued and paid a lot of money for. Back then the firm was one of two that paid twice market and Los Angeles and paid New York.

[00:10:26] And there was a different pay scale. So it was they had a lot of people to choose from. So you need to be very careful. You need to proofread your resume. You need approve it again. There's some great programs out there that you can buy to prove things, but you should also have other people profit and make sure the language is very direct don't use fancy words and so forth.

[00:10:48] And and just remember that at all levels attorneys go overboard in terms of detail. I had an experience that I learned very early as an attorney when I was clerking for a federal judge [00:11:00] and I had spent like a day or something reviewing these. So these prisoner petitions would, they, do them to get out of business or try to get out of jail.

[00:11:09] But there were a bunch of kind of things mixed in there that were some that had to be granted, but it wasn't letting them out of jail. It was just granting of the prosecutor's motion to. Deny it. And I don't know, but, and one of them, I wrote granted by mistake for prisoner instead of to the judge for signature and had I granted it, it would have started the process of maybe letting this guy out of prison.

[00:11:30]You just need to be very careful about decals that's job, by the way. That's the attorney's job and if you're not comfortable with being,  very detail oriented, you need to learn to be very detail oriented. If you're young attorney, cause that's.

[00:11:42]Really what it is and the more detailed learners you are the better. When attorney has got court  they point out detail on the other side and they go back and forth and it's really that. And some ex corporate attorneys and patent attorneys, I've seen patent attorneys, miss one small little thing and get fired.

[00:11:58]It's just, you have [00:12:00] to be very detailed oriented and your resumes where you can show it and people can tell. Based on how much time and how many drafts and how much you go over it. How detailed our interview are. So you need to be extremely guitar in the resume. You need to do tight direct language.

[00:12:17]You're not paid to write a lot. You're paid to write short in direct  if you can shorten the language in your resume, you should. If you have too much language  it's not good language in court documents, language in corporate documents.

[00:12:32] You want it to be as direct as possible. Courts typically have page limits. They want to want things to be easy to read. You just need to make things as direct as possible. You don't want to be using large words.  It doesn't show you're smart. It shows your  academic and law firms typically do not like academics.

[00:12:50] If you're using big words the best liars some of them, every other word that they say is a swear word. So you need to be litigators are numb, but it's just be careful  your [00:13:00] education experience or what are going to show. Your skills and attorney in your experience and your building it to be hired.

[00:13:06]The other thing that's very important. And can, if you get, this is the only thing you get out of what I'm talking about today, then then you  then you, then that's great, but your resume. Needs to give off the scent. You're a good fit for the type of work that you're seeking.

[00:13:26] If your resume discusses a bunch of interest and things that are relevant to the job, you may not be interviewed and hired. If your resume. Looks like is, has a lot of things that look like he might be interested in a certain type of work. You're not likely to be a good fit for the job.

[00:13:42]Everything you put on your resume needs to be viewed through the lens of how the firm that's going to be interviewing you and hiring you is going to see you. So I'll just tell you a couple of examples. So I was reviewing. Interns to help with some legal work for our company this morning from local law [00:14:00] schools.

[00:14:00]It's just something that I was, doing, and I like to, get back to kids in school. So I was reviewing these and, the, several of the ones that I reviewed they were all over the place.  They talked about, a lot of healthcare stuff and that wouldn't have been in good fat and others.

[00:14:15]Had a lot of political stuff on it. Like very towards one party, it wouldn't have been a good fit because that, that seemed like all the person was interested in. So your resume needs to be very direct and focused. And then people are going to choose to work with them, people that that they think are going to be the best fit for the position.

[00:14:32] So if your experience is all over the place and stuff, you need to clean it up. And I'll talk a lot about that today.  But you should typically have different versions of your resume for different types of jobs you're applying to. The thing is if you're an attorney, you need to be able to, take sides and just, if you've ever watched a, TV, courtroom, dramas, or shows where there's a lot of negotiation going on business type shows or.

[00:14:58]Or what happens is [00:15:00] people take one side and then you emphasize your strengths and you minimize your weaknesses. So an example would be, if you're applying for general commercial litigation job, this is the kind of thing I see all the time. Attorneys will talk about how they do a lot of labor and employment and their resume and law firms don't want to hear them.

[00:15:17] They want to hear that you want to do general commercial litigation. So you may put a line in your resume. You did some placement employment, but it's really irrelevant if you. If you haven't done a lot, if you did different types of work, like I was reviewing an attorney's resume, a very good resume from someone from major law firm that did a rotation for one year and worked on five different things.

[00:15:40] And he worked in the corporate department, he worked in environmental department. He did project finance. And and that makes it very difficult. You need to pick an interest and, he would be better off just saying he was an associate and and then apply, and then, letting someone else talk to me, talk about his experience, but, emphasizing one [00:16:00] thing or just trying to emphasize one thing.

[00:16:01] So you need to be able to take sides. So every job you're applying for, you should look at it through the lens of the person that's hiring. They are going to. Hire the person that is the best match for the job. And you will only be the best match for the job if your experience and so forth is, and I'm going to talk a lot about experience today, but if everything about your background looks like it's a good match because most employer has been hired someone that's a good match.

[00:16:28] Okay. So the next thing we'll talk about is the heading is what goes. Right on top of your resume, it's, where your name and so forth phone number and email address are. You don't need to include your LinkedIn or Twitter profile. Employers would find that in the wrong you should always have your email address your email address by the way it should be like a Gmail or something generally.

[00:16:48]You can certainly use a school email address if you want. But I I don't necessarily think that's a great idea. And I'll talk about that in a second. Your your school address  [00:17:00] it's sometimes. Not a good thing. So people will listen to expand for it.

[00:17:03] And then they may, where they went to college or Harvard or something, and then they may not be going to a top school. So it just shows the person might be a little bit snobby about where they went to school. I hate to say it, people don't like that. And then it'll highlight if we didn't go to as great of a law school and so just I typically, recommend not listing.

[00:17:22]A school email address. I just, I liked gene now. If you have. A private website. It's not a good idea to list your private website or blog. Email. Just use something that's very generic because you don't want to draw too much attention to yourself. Remember lawyers are typically behind the scenes doing things for people and they pounce on things to look a little weird.

[00:17:42]A lot of people use your school email address. I just don't think it's the greatest idea. That's my opinion. You're welcome to, but but just be careful, especially if you're trying to list a very prestigious school because that's just, only people typically they went to the best school for those of those email addresses and that's been [00:18:00] my experience, so it just draws it, attention.

[00:18:02] So the other thing is too, is that when your resume you may be going to school in Chicago.  Want to work in if you're from New Jersey you should less the permanent address you and your school address. They should have two addresses which is helpful. And so you need to make sure you always list your permanent address.

[00:18:21] If you have one in you're applying to firms in New Jersey, if you're applying just to firms in Chicago, then you shouldn't list your permanent address. You should only list your permanent address when you're applying to firms in New Jersey or someplace close to that. If you have a foreign name that may people may not be able to necessarily understand.

[00:18:38] You can also include Mr. Miss Ms. Mrs. As well. The other thing too, that I don't like, and that a lot of people do is  they don't include an address on their resume. If you don't include an address  the, it, it can look a little bit suspicious. The employers always want to get a sense of where you live.

[00:18:57]If you don't list it, they're always going to ask you. [00:19:00] But the employer may always wonder, why you're being so private about where you live and not include it on your resume. And the reason is as employers want to hire people that live close to their office. An example would be I live in work in Los Angeles and in Malibu, and I'm always hiring people to work in my office here in Malibu, but.

[00:19:19] From, if someone's coming from Santa Monica to commute is typically like 15 to 20 minutes, but if they're coming from Pasadena, it literally could be 90 minutes to two hours or downtown Los Angeles could be more than an hour. So when I see resumes from those people I, as much as I would like to I know they're not going to want to come here full time.

[00:19:37]LA is a huge area of millions of people. They're going to want to work closer to home. And to the extent I've ever heard people from those areas, they've always quit. Because of the community.  I'm not going to hire people from those areas. If you have an address and it's a long way from the office, people probably won't hire you.

[00:19:52]They wanna see that you live close to their office. And when you're applying to players where you're close to the office that's very helpful to have [00:20:00] your address  most employers if the employer is. Far away from you. If someone is applying from Pasadena the employers probably going to be more likely to interview, I would be, if I didn't see an address and I thought maybe the person.

[00:20:12]I see that they're working in, Santa Monica, for example, I might assume they live in Santa Monica and bring them in. So not having an address can also be a strategic move if you're applying someplace far from your house in a geographic area people in New York a lot of times will do that.

[00:20:28] They'll live in. An hour and a half train ride but then the work in New York city, and they may not put an address on there, but if you're within a reasonable distance community distance with the employer, it is a good idea always to put your resume on, your address on them.

[00:20:42] Another thing I see, quite often I don't know what the percentage of attorneys would do it, but a lot of people will put PO boxes. That's a real turnoff for employers. People had a PO boxes, typically have a much harder time than people don't list PO boxes and just have addresses. And honestly I've [00:21:00] seen some things, I've seen some weird things of post office boxes.

[00:21:03]First law firm, I worked in. There was only one guy with PO box and he ended up being arrested and some sort of, staying trying to meet girls online. And and then in another instance  I've worked with attorneys that have had PO boxes and unless, unusual stuff came to light their backgrounds later.

[00:21:20]Another examples are recently came across the Silicon Valley attorney. Working for a major New York law firm with an office in Silicon Valley, but he was also working as an engineer for Intel incredibly he was working two jobs at the time and had been an engineer since he graduated from college with them.

[00:21:37]You need to, and he had, lot. I just see weird stuff, with PO boxes all the time, a new, another girl that had one and. She was convinced that she, people might stop her because she had a daughter  son of a well-known TV actor. It's just, people have PO boxes.

[00:21:53] I understand that there's a reason for them  but they do raise red flags and there's legitimate reasons for having them. Of [00:22:00] course. And one example is attorney that's on the road all the time. Or someone that needs privacy, but if it's an issue just don't list it.

[00:22:08] I just would recommend keeping it off off altogether, if you need a post office box for one reason and your privacy. Had a funny thing happened with the main ed. It's not funny, but I had a woman that worked for me that had been harassed by her ex boyfriend needed privacy. And when the man found out she worked at our company.

[00:22:26]He assumed I must be having an affair with her, which I don't know why, where that came from. And and then he called them threatened to blow up in her house. And he was in Nigeria, FBI got involved. And then and then my housekeeper with a bunch of other people from her church or the candlelight vigil in front of my house, praying that the house wouldn't be blown up.

[00:22:46] So it was actually amusing. It was nice for him, but. I'm just saying things get weird when there's post office boxes involved, the other thing that you need to get away from and attorneys shouldn't do, and this is equally important is you [00:23:00] don't want to be using  an opening paragraph or bullet points.

[00:23:03]This is something that typically older attorneys will do a lot of times they'll pick it up when they work in companies. I don't know why they do it, but they might, you might have something on your resume that says something like motivated, diversified attorney, able to multitask and understand the needs of large corporations and mids.

[00:23:19]It's just, it, can, they, these things drone on and on. And I don't know why people do this. I'm assuming that you must, sit around with a resume coach or something and they. They sit around and philosophize for awhile. And some of these resume companies charged thousands of dollars to do this.

[00:23:34] And I just don't really think it helps anyone. And all it does is draw attention to the fact that it might be a little bit difficult for you to get a job that you need to spend all this time doing that and attorneys to do this, do not get jobs. It's very difficult.  Don't think I've ever seen a prestigious firm hire someone with this on their resume.

[00:23:52] It's just.  Know I'm upsetting some people and I'm not trying to, if you're doing that, but it just, it doesn't work. It draws attention [00:24:00] to the fact that, you need to, that may be maybe hard for people to grow employer. You may need to, you need to seem like, people want to know that you're, you're in demand a little bit and it doesn't do that.

[00:24:10]Other people do bullet points, they'll say something like seasoned graduate of a top 40 law school, or large law firm trained attorney. People can pick all that up by reading your resume. You don't need to tell them stuff like that. So I please, don't use bullet points at the top of your resume either.

[00:24:27]Let the employer read your resume. They can pick all this stuff up and they don't really need to see all this kind of information in order to hire you or bring you in, just leave it off. It's not it doesn't really do any good. I just take the same the, it must be like executive resume services.

[00:24:46] Like I said, to do this when you write all this stuff, it's just communicating to the firm that that you may not, that there's no way they can interpret what your experienced means. And and it tends to say point out if they're older, it tends to say, you may have a [00:25:00] being very, high on yourself.

[00:25:02]And also that there's fluff on there because there's nothing there. And we just remember the idea of a shark sharks looking for anything that's out of the ordinary. And it just doesn't work. And and there's this other thing that people do too. Like they think they need to put all these keywords and stuff in their resume to be found by an automated resume search services, systems and you don't, it does that doesn't work either.

[00:25:23] People do not want to hire people that have to put a bunch of keyboards on their resume to get attention. They're going to hire the best person that can. Okay. Attorneys are obsessive, very suspicious of verbiage and others posturing. So just be  very careful please don't do this stop.

[00:25:39]If you're doing it and remove it, trust me. It doesn't help. You may have somehow gotten a job doing that in the past, but it really does not work very well at all. Okay. So let's talk about degrees  and voluntary earned honors grades, awards, and journals, and so forth. And that's the second section you have a resume, so you have the heading. [00:26:00]

[00:26:00]Hopefully you don't have a paragraph if you do our bullet points at the top, remove it your address and everything, if it's appropriate. And then the next section is going to be your degrees and voluntary honors grades, awards, and journals. So what you need to understand is we've been out of school less than five years.

[00:26:17] You should list your degrees first. That's the general rule. If you're more than five years out of school you should list your degrees. After your experience and you should listings in reverse chronological order. So the main thing though to understand is, if you went to a prestigious school, you just, that, and that's a great thing you still have, at the end, after five years law school, law firms really only care are most concerned about your school right when you get out of school and but you always need to list your degrees and.

[00:26:49]And and if you go into a great law school, just keep in mind that law firms are going to care less and less about this, more and more about your experience and stability. The longer you've been out of school if you don't have the [00:27:00] experience for job, your school, your experience becomes somewhat meaningless.

[00:27:03]And law firms are really concerned, if they're going to stick in the job and if you're going to do the job. And so sometimes if it doesn't look like you will, because of your experience they're not going to care about your education. So just remember after five years you put your school last.

[00:27:17]Okay. So another thing too is a lot of the attorneys are lists they're high school on their resumes.  You should generally not list it. People that went to school like Andover St. Paul's Exeter there are other public schools like Stuyvesant or Bronx science, Boston, Latin, and so forth.

[00:27:33]Often list those on their resumes. I think that it's great. And the people go to those schools.  Think that he went to a very prestigious public school in the market where you're applying. So if you're applying to button firms in Boston, you leave that on there.

[00:27:45] That might be okay. Or if you're in New York, Stuyvesant is okay or cast back if you're in Detroit. But the competitive public high school is. Good from the, if it's public, but in terms of the private schools  don't think it's really a good [00:28:00] idea. I went to a, like a well-known  private boarding school and, and only people from my school that really still put this on their resume or people.

[00:28:08] You know that, that haven't done much. They all think at all their sense of importance from that and your sense of importance when you get out of school, whether it's college or law school really needs to come from your experience. In my opinion, you need to concentrate on that. You're done with school, forget about it,  and highlighting that you went to a prestigious school when I was applying to firms like that, initially I had the number, my resume and, everybody I was interviewing and went to, and went to these, big firms.

[00:28:33] Most of my remember I went to public schools in my city. It's just, it's just it's a sign of insecurity that upsets people sometimes if they didn't grow up with the same advantages and they're resentful and you, don't the fact that you went to a prep school.

[00:28:47] It doesn't mean that you're going to be a good attorney. And most attorneys are not listening it on their resume and. People are gonna, show that, the resentment and get back to you by rejecting you. From the way they thought growing up. So just leave that [00:29:00] off your resume and, don't take pride in something that your parents or something may have paid for a long time ago.

[00:29:06] If you got into a competitive public school by testing, that's a good thing, but otherwise they recommend leaving the schools off and. One of the things to understand is the most prestigious firms like solving a Cromwell crevasse, and Wachtell, most of those people went to public schools and they, they fought really hard and just,  to get ahead and most of the, most successful business people and the lawyers I went to, really, public schools and try hard.

[00:29:30]Yeah, it's just not a good idea to do anything. That's going to bring out the shark in attorney. And make them attack you. You want to be, as simple as possible, I was looking, it was interesting when I was reviewing these resumes and this was just, it's just today.

[00:29:46] So this is why I'm talking about it. But, it's reviewing a resume of a woman that, that I ended up hiring that was going to work and solving a chromo in the summer. And. Which is a great firm and and she's working here and, but she her resume was very [00:30:00] simple, very direct to hit her grades on it.

[00:30:02]But very simple. And and that's how it is with the best firms. They don't want like big personalities and support the people with all this stuff. They're going to just tear it. They're not going to hire you. They're more concerned about just being direct. Just don't listen, that sort of stuff.

[00:30:16]Okay. So you should list your college on your resume. You should. List your major, but you don't want to go on too much detail if your resume, if your major doesn't have a lot to do with practice in law. And in fact, you may sometimes want to completely deemphasize it and just put BA or something, if you can.

[00:30:34]In, in the sense that if it's a general kind of, something like that, you don't want to, if you majored in nursing do they, is that nursing or did you get a bachelor from the BS? I don't know, but you just, you don't want to list things that are likely to alienate the types of employers who may be interested.

[00:30:52] And I think it's probably okay to list nursing, but you just need to be very careful. You don't want to go into too much detail. A lot of people, less [00:31:00] their senior thesis or their individual grades and their college section you don't want to list your individual grades. If your senior thesis with something to do with what you want to do for example, if you want to be an environmental attorney and you wrote about environmental stuff, that's probably okay.

[00:31:15] But you don't want to list anything. That's really irrelevant to what you're trying to do and that's especially, so when it could be, alienating, I see resumes all the time and these are, this is actually an example of from today. I'm just, I'm sorry to keep drawing on this, but.

[00:31:29]I saw it today and I saw these,  people that wrote down in college that they, wrote these papers about these very kind of controversial alienating topics, don't know  how to, impeach the president in why, Trump's bad and I'm not.

[00:31:42] Saying that I agree with that, or don't agree with it one way or another, but,  the point is like, that's very amniotic to some audiences and, and someone's not going to want to hire someone that, wants to impeach their president or,  or something along those lines.

[00:31:55] So you just need to be very clear, careful with what you're putting on there. Minor [00:32:00] needs to be you need to be careful about that. Sometimes my people will minor and just ridiculous things, and. That really aren't, too relevant to practicing law. And if you want to list your minor, that's fine.

[00:32:12]It's very good. If you want to be like a patent attorney or you majored in electrical engineering or something and and it's related to what you're doing that can be helpful. It can be helpful, if you want to be a litigator, maybe minor in English or something, but everything about your resume just really needs to show that you're.

[00:32:28] A natural fit for the type of job that you're applying for and that you could be and you're likely to be the best person for the job.  Many attorneys will also go to graduate school. So they may get advanced degrees and things like English, anthropology, and other types of things. And these are very good for being an attorney and you always need to list your advanced degrees, but you can't.

[00:32:49] They were an academic type subjects you have to, view, remember that attorneys really view academics as soft and in, in inside of law firms and so forth. And [00:33:00] they don't understand why people want to sit around discussing ideas and writing papers and so forth.

[00:33:04]They don't like it and like the shark of a pound sign. So you don't want your resume to look too academic. If it is, you want to, deemphasize the academics you want to make it look like a little bit less academic than if you can't unless it's related to what you're seeking to do, patent attorneys looks great when you have a lot of academics that are related, but not too much.

[00:33:25]Law firms are not interested in too much reflection, introspection. They represent clients and need immediate solutions. They do not typically value intellectuals and it's just the way it is. And I'm a very intellectual I always considered, going for a PhD at the university, Chicago and my subject and I and and I was very intellectual, one point in my life.

[00:33:47] But, I learned when I went to law school and when I got out and started that this is just not what it is. And, even if you're intellectual attorney it could hurt you if you've been practicing for several years. So you should list your degree and move on. If you don't want to [00:34:00] give an impression that you're going to be too intellectual and think things through too much.

[00:34:05]In one, one example would be I've had law firms tell me they don't like hiring people from Yale law school because they just will think about things too much and the clients aren't going to pay for it. And, it's great having that kind of mind and being smart, but. It's not always valued.

[00:34:20]By law firms are about an employer, legal employers about cutting through facts and come in the solutions. The other things too is you don't want to list in voluntary  and things that aren't degrees on your resume all the time. Every week, I see people lists, they took an Anthony Robbins course or a Dale Carnegie course.

[00:34:39]That they got a certificate and something from business school. Like it might be, I don't know what it is. It could be project, man. You just want to list your degrees, that's it? A self-improvement course, a certification from a business school and so forth. It really detracts from the practice law.

[00:34:56]It shows, that you may have interests that lie outside there. [00:35:00] Or, and they're not really concerned about that. A three-day Dale Carnegie course not really something that's going to be valued. Law firms want attorneys that sit behind desk and bill hours. That's pretty much it, or, get verdicts.

[00:35:13] They want them to produce income and and work. And yeah. If you indicate you have a lot of outside interests and things like that, and you've been spending work time doing that. It's going to spook a attorney or the law firm a little bit, and it's going to turn them off.

[00:35:28]The other thing  that you need to make sure you need to understand is that a lot of times older attorneys will not list their college and law school graduation dates on their resumes. And what this does, is it, but they will show that you're trying to hide your age. It highlights that you're much older and and if we're trying to find certain information, it's just going to draw attention to it by trying to obscure it.

[00:35:51] So you don't want to hide it. Just remember, you can use your age as a, as an advantage. But remember the attorneys are sharks and they're going to come, after any type [00:36:00] of thing that's missing. Just like they came after me for having been off, for 10 days on my graduation data, on my resume th this is how it works.

[00:36:08] And then the bigger the firm, the better the firm, the more they're going to be sharps there that are going to tear apart your resume, if there's too much stuff there. And one of the things too, that I'm also seeing like that. That I, for the life of me, don't understand why people are doing it. I understand why they might, a lot of times people that went to university of Vermont law school will say it's ranked number one, environmental law, or, sometimes people will say to a school's ranked number.

[00:36:31] For in the U S pretrial advocacy by some unknown organization or, number 24 by the Princeton review. And it may be a rank, 75 by us news, or, no one cares about these things. It's this, you don't need to put that on your resume. You just don't need it on there. No one cares.

[00:36:48] It's not just because a law firm is ranked highly for trial advocacy. Yeah, it certainly does not mean that you're going to be a good litigator. That's insane. That's like saying just, it doesn't make [00:37:00] sense. No one cares and you need to, get away from the stuff that, for school law firms, some of them care about, firm rankings, others don't it's just, it doesn't matter.

[00:37:08] So just please be careful. The other thing too  and this is a big one and I just,  this really is a big one, but people will always, a lot of times will list the grades and, and the list of grade point average. And they'll say things like, that they were in the top 50% or, the list that they got an a minus in one course or, and the thing to remember is.

[00:37:33]If you highlight the fact that your average, then the sharks are going to move in and say your average the only benefit to highlighting your average grades and not doing well is if you want to show a low pain or procedures from that, you probably can't get a job anywhere else.

[00:37:46] So you don't want to put your grades on there as proud as you are of them, that you were in the top 30% of your class from a top, 25 law school or wherever you went. You just. You don't want to put it on there. You want to put things like, if you were five, [00:38:00] eight, a Kappa and college or eater or the top 10% or manual come Lottie, or order the koi and so forth, you do want to put all that.

[00:38:08] Please don't highlight your average grades. You just need to be very careful about that. And and make sure that they're, when you're highlighting grades you just don't want to highlight it because law firms can hire. The best. And so the job of an attorney is to be an advocate.

[00:38:24] You need to be an advocate for yourself. You need to emphasize your strengths and then minimize your weaknesses. The other thing too, is like law firms don't care, about your individual class grades. If you got an, a, in a class or something, or, that's fine. If you've got an amateur award or the best student in class, you can list that.

[00:38:43]But after a while five years, you might want to take it off. You need to remember that when you're in law school, the only way that law firms can compare you to other people is typically based on your grades. And then that sort of inflammation, but  after awhile it's just, it's not going to [00:39:00] really matter that much.

[00:39:01] And most law firms can hire people if they can get A's or wants it. It's especially dangerous when you're applying to top firms, you can find a top firm in your listing and you've got a great grade in a couple of classes, they can hire people that got great grades in all their classes.

[00:39:14] So just. Leave that off. You don't want to do anything that highlights that makes you look average.  I had an interesting experience of a woman that never listed her grades

[00:39:24]your resume, and it really helped her. She'd written onto the law review at a top 25 law school, but she did a horribly in law school. She had to seven. It may have even been worse than that. A two seven is good at some schools, but I heard law school that was very bad. It might even have been two, three or something.

[00:39:41]She had nothing about her grades on her resume and and she got a circuit court clerkship somehow I think it was through a friend or like a family friend or something, but right out of that, she got a job at one of the 10 best litigation firms in the United States. They never asked for [00:40:00] braids.

[00:40:00] They probably assumed she was in the top 5% of her class. And and then after that she got another job at a top firm and no one would have hired her. Had they known what her grades were. I just, this top firms, they just forgot to ask the grades and assume so. Sometimes not listing your grades is a great thing.

[00:40:18] And in law firms, a lot of them just completely forget to ask the transcripts and attorneys at work there. It's very common. I also thought about this because recently I spoke to a woman that's finishing up a very prestigious clerkship and she's highlighting that she is in the top 50% of her class from a top 50 law school on a resume.

[00:40:36] And she was very upset because one of the first things I said to her, it was like, you got to get that off. And then,  she went back on her heels and I, what I told her is that, the most prestigious firms can hire people in the top 10% of their class all day.

[00:40:48]Senior in the top 50% and highlighting that. That you're proud of, being average that's, a top law school is probably not a good idea.  Just to remember that, and your grades really aren't that important and the longer [00:41:00] you're practicing, the less important they are, all they show is, that you had an early aptitude for taking tests.

[00:41:05] They don't show how good of an attorney you're going to be in the long run by any stretch of the imagination. They are important for law students or people coming out of clerkships and so forth to some degree, but you really don't need to spend a lot. I'm on  remember the the individual grades are good grade is not necessary.

[00:41:22]And and then the reason that grades are important as an overall thing is just because there is a perception that the people that do the best academically are the most focused. Achievement oriented and hardest working and that's what they want to do. Okay.  And if you did extremely well you should list that, but list your overall grade point or something along those lines.

[00:41:42]I love people for example, that did well in college that typically shows, a long-term commitment without parents hovering over you and and shows, the people that do the best in college, I think are often the best attorneys. And so displaying your grades over an extended period of time that you did well in college, that's actually [00:42:00] good if you did, very high honors or something.

[00:42:02]I think that  good outset  is an indication of aptitude for the practice of law. I think that people that do well on the test tend to be, have very good innate legal skills. So I do think it's a. An important thing. But you shouldn't list your L sat on your resume.

[00:42:17] You should never list your sat outside GRE or GMAT scores. The thing is that most people, that list that don't tend to have the best grades and I've never seen a graduate of a top law school are people that get positions in top law firms list that information on their resume.

[00:42:33]Sometimes people will go to who like like a third tier fourth tier law school and may have done incredibly well, like a one 75 and the L sat or one 80, or, whatever. And, in that case  listing that will show that you may have gotten a scholarship or something.

[00:42:48]If you did go to a good, if you did go to a lesser law school and you've got a full tuition scholarship, that's something you can sometimes list to explain that. And there's nothing wrong with that. Listing your El [00:43:00] sat scores and so forth when you went to a top law school really does show a lot of insecurity.

[00:43:05]And it should be removed unless it, maybe indicates you've got a scholarship and that's why you went to a lesser law school. The other thing too is, you can highlight your earned academic awards in college law school and graduate school.  So you may want to hire, the highlight the highest grade in a corporate class, if you're trying to get a corporate attorney job or environmental but you should only list that to the extent that it's very relevant and and most of the time it's not going to be getting other awards for your academic accomplishments are important and show you're motivated.

[00:43:37] So that's a good idea. And you can list that. And but the thing is too is like a lot of times people will listen, they got a three, five in graduate school or something, or, and most people that go to graduate school, most of them have, give all, A's not all of them do.

[00:43:52]But just be careful and of listing that to some extent one of the things I see too as I see one of the reasons I'm so [00:44:00] cautious, I like people to get MBAs. That's a good  degree to get a lot of times and put on your image blocks in your resume.

[00:44:07] But, I see attorneys, regularly that have gone to medical school and then they were, these doctors like, doing very well, and. And then decided they wanted to go mad in sport. They have almost an impossible time getting jobs and especially not in good firms.

[00:44:22]They almost never do. Law firms reject people that look like they're not fit for practicing law. And I don't think law firms liked doctors because I think that  they figure that, didn't want to give someone that could save her life, put them in a warehouse all night someplace reviewing documents.

[00:44:37] But you just, you don't want to highlight things that show anything to do with your lack of commitment to practicing law. And in some cases I've seen attorneys list something like they may have gone to university of Michigan and they may have gotten a master's degree and a a bachelor's degree and they just left BA ma and then they don't put a lot of detail and they put it with the subject was in and that's it.

[00:44:59] And that's [00:45:00] actually much smarter than going to a lot of detail, especially if you start writing the thesis of, and all this stuff, Meyers will tear you up. Okay. Other things like serious prize winners, Harvard law school, I was just, first year grade point most attorneys that go to work in top firms or from the fist on scholars at Columbia listing Madden spine Phi beta Kappa, like I said earlier.

[00:45:21] You need to be careful too. So like I had on my resume for years that I was nominated. In advance in this competition to be a road scholar, which, wasn't easy to do. Cause there were only like five people from my entire college and you were Chicago that, got to do that, but I didn't win.

[00:45:36]And that's the thing is that, people would always ask me that I make it to the semi-finals of the fi. So all I did was emphasize, my weakness and also because I didn't get the honor it made me look like a loser. I'm basically writing on there that I lost something.

[00:45:51] I'm proud of it, but, and so that it's not something that I should have listed but you just look, the big thing is the law firms want to, your [00:46:00] rewards need to show that you're likely to stick around at the law firm, you should list your lab-grown journal membership. You should list if you were on various journals law review should always be listed, but you need to be very careful about listing.

[00:46:14]Journals from time to time because some of them are, these journal titles may be upsetting to some employers and you just need to, be careful. An environmental journal is not something that you would think a corporate attorney would want to do that represents corporations gender and the law, which I think is perfectly fine, but some people may or may not like them.

[00:46:34] So you just need to be careful about how you keep what you keep on there and what you highlight. Most law firms will value you being a member of a journal or law review and having a competitive or leadership role in them. It's likely to help you. Law firms and see a consistent path leadership will assume your peers respect you and that you're likely to fit in.

[00:46:56] And that's true as well. So one [00:47:00] of the final things as we move through the degree thing that I need to talk about is your Scholastic activities and Scholastic activities need to signal to employers that you're likely to be a good fit for whatever type of job that you're seeking. And this is a very important point and I hope.

[00:47:19]That this particular advice you listened to it because this hurts a lot of careers. If you want, if you did mock trial and debate in college, you want to be a litigator, you can list it it's relevant and it will help you. You can put down, especially if you have a role or something playing varsity sports, law firms love people that played varsity sports in college, regardless of the size of the college.

[00:47:39]Most of them like it. You shouldn't be listing your intramural sports. It's probably a waste of time on your resume, but the varsity sport is a good idea, but only listed if you were very good, even, if you did something, when you were younger that you were like a nationally ranked tennis player or something, you can, this, that, and the end of the resume or something, but you don't want to really list too much information [00:48:00] about that.

[00:48:00]I don't think it's a good idea to list fraternities in college. I don't even know about fire from the Delta, the law fraternity it shows you can get along if you listen to fraternity with a group of men, but it's going to be alienating to a lot of people that were very good students and didn't do that kind of stuff in college.

[00:48:17]I typically recommend leaving it off the same thing with sororities. It's just, it's not really liars just want to go for the. Cut through all that. Think about your, think, just think about how you would feel. If you weren't in a sorority and you didn't get into sorority in college, or if you weren't in a fraternity and didn't get into a fraternity in college.

[00:48:36]I saw some awful stuff. I was a member,  when I was in college, when people not getting in the fraternities and and I know that some people that didn't get in probably have major chips on their shoulder and you just don't want to leave. That kind of a thing on your resume for the most part, it's not going to help you.

[00:48:52] And then, in terms of eating clubs, Princeton and Harvard and things like, or Yale, that's probably not a great thing to leave on there, or, [00:49:00] you don't want to alienate people that weren't part of the groups that you weren't part of. It's just not a good idea.

[00:49:06] Remember, attorneys are sharks. You're an attorney and you got rejected from an attorney or sorority when you're younger and so much put it in that, on their resume. You're going to think, I don't like this person and reject them. So why would you leave that on there? Most of the firms are only going to be concerned with your law school grade.

[00:49:21]When you're as an associate, especially and you're not going to move the needle very much by showing that you were did some of these outside activities. But one of the things is that, you can signal your interest, if you're a part of the corporate law students group or something that's a good idea to list when you're young and applying for the first time when your law school probably not, when you get out the other thing that a lot of people do and there's a huge push in society for diversity and which is great.

[00:49:48] And that's a good thing. And there should be more diversity. But at the same time listing these, the first groups you were part of can also be something that may harm you. And [00:50:00] I'm not saying that that I have any problems with, people that are part of the Federalist society, which is a group of very conservative people or to Christian law students society, or.

[00:50:10]Which is nice too, all these things anytime you make an issue out of these things, you're going to alienate some people it's just the way it is. And so the more you can just be direct and go on your qualifications and not that's thing people will figure out your background and so you don't necessarily need to list it and they will hire you and you'll get.

[00:50:31] A lot of people will get hired as a diverse reason. And so we'll help you, but listing it.  And these types of things can help you because people have, perceptions of people that are sometimes negative or they may be positive. Now, if you're applying to certain types of firms and may make sense, we've been on there, but you do need to be very careful.

[00:50:49] And I don't like it any more than you do. But I'm just telling you what works. I'm telling you. I'm from representing thousands of people that have, hadn't spent a step on their resume and haven't had a [00:51:00] resume. The less you make an issue out of your stuff, the more likely you are to get hired, because it will be perceived that you're not, using it.

[00:51:07]If you're a member of. The Federalist society, all that means is you have some very conservative views and you get together and have some meetings and it's not really that big of a deal. And the only thing that's going to do is potentially disqualify you with many employers and you just need to remember that.

[00:51:25]If you're reviewing a resume, think about it this way. If you're reviewing a resume. And and you're very liberal and you see someone that has a bunch of stuff about being a Republican on there. You're not going to like that. You're going to instinctively think I don't want to