[00:00:00] Today is actually a very important webinar. It's about networking and it's something that a lot of people don't traditionally think about in this day and age, in terms of a really good way to get a job they think in terms of applying places online and other sorts of ways that certainly have always been almost as long as I've been working have been good ways to get jobs, but at the same time I think networking really makes a big difference.
It makes a big difference. Most of the most successful attorneys are networked. And that's one of the reasons why this is such an important presentation, so I'll give the presentation and then after today's presentation we'll take a quick break and then I will come back and we'll do questions, which is my favorite part of the week.
So you guys will be able to pretty much ask about this or any other questions the may have about anything. So most successful trainings are quite network and and a lot of attorneys, unfortunately, don't network. And now work means that they have a large circle of people that they give them information [00:01:00] that they otherwise might not have.
And they're also able to make themselves known to a large pool of people that they might not otherwise know. And when you know about jobs developments within your firm things going on in the legal market ways other people are getting business and making money all these things can be very helpful to your success as attorney.
In fact, I would argue that, honestly, the most successful attorneys out there are, whether it comes, whether it's about getting business or whatever. They really are networked quite well. And And being known to sources of information are relevant. Your career is even more important.
So today I'm going to talk about networking and your legal career. I'm going to discuss the value of networking to find a job inside of a firm. And then I'm also going to discuss its value to keeping a job. And then why people that don't network often have quite a few problems in there, honestly, when it comes right down to it, if you're quite networked you often don't need to look for a job.
Jobs will come to you and you'll constantly be all sorts of opportunities [00:02:00] will be presenting themselves that you normally normally wouldn't become aware of. So the first part I'm talking about today is the importance of networking and finding a job inside of a law firm. And and honestly when you look at all the studies most people learn about jobs through people that aren't their close friends.
So most studies have shown there's lots of studies that other people find out about jobs for other people. So in the late 1960s, there was a graduate student at Harvard, and he did a study about how. And he subsequently published a book on this and other finance in the mid nineties. And this book offers a lot of findings about how people learn about their jobs.
And what he did is he interviewed a lot of people and asked him to identify the five people they spent the most time with and then draw a diagram as to how those people were connected to each other. And at the time it was, pretty well known that most people were learning about the job, different jobs for the people in that advertised.[00:03:00]
And so he asked the people that he interviewed, to identify the person from their last job. And what was interesting was that the person that he identified was never one of the five plus friends. And when he asked them who the person was the people almost responded that the person was an acquaintance, not a friend.
And so he interviewed, E 282 technical managerial professional workers. And he found that of the 56% of people who found their jobs for personal contacts, only 17% learned about their their positions through close friends. So the lesson behind this seems to be that most people actually do learn about jobs through people who are outside of.
Works. People whom you're closest to tend to have access to the same information you do, but people outside of your group are likely to be exposed to information that you're not exposed to. And so if you want to learn about a job, it's often important that you have access to people that are outside of your existing network of close friends.
And and there's really [00:04:00] no reason to suspect that this logic wouldn't also apply to attorneys. And in my experience, this is actually even more appropriate because I think about about less than 5% of all attorneys get positions for people that are in their immediate circle of influence.
I've certainly heard of that happening, but most people find it through other people that aren't immediately connected to. And one of the interesting things, I remember that when I was young attorney and practicing law was an individual who's, considering one of the most successful attorneys in the country send a group of out their first year associates and myself, that one of his biggest mistakes was not making more friends and getting closer with people when he was in law school.
And at the time I remember being amazed by this statement, because I saw this first in this, someone that was remarkable. He was very successful and and I had a hard time believing, an attorney can be much more successful than he was. But what I did not understand was that he believed that if he properly network, even at that early stage, he could have been much more [00:05:00] successful, but he wasn't at that point.
So regardless of how well you network in law school, when you commence the practice of law and, throughout your entire career being able to network as something that is going to be very important to your current job search and your present job. Your future job search, because if you're able to network beyond, your immediate social ties, like people that you know closely then it's gonna be very helpful for you.
When you're seeking a position and large law firms tend to emphasize things like the bill, your billable hours how meticulous you should be. And and the stress and demands of the practice law will often undermine the importance of networking because the law firms don't necessarily reward you for networking.
They they reward you for hours and the quality at work many times, but in terms of direct reward, but many attorneys think that a lot of times, once they're joined a large law firm, that all they have to do really is get, do the best work they can and nothing more they're going to do well, but this is just not true.
And and I think that [00:06:00] most firms, most attorneys at shine law firms, when they're out of school, won't really stay there longer than a couple of years. And most of them join another large law firm as well. And gods are pretty good, most cases that they're also going to be at the same law firm for a short period of time as well for a couple of years.
So if a young attorney goes to a large law firm and closes the door, puts on blinders and they works as hard as they can. They're making a mistake. They're not networking as well. There's a fallacy in thinking that if you just work as hard as you can then you're certainly going to have a long-term success and that's not the truth.
The ex the success of most partners and other individuals is really in most cases, more due to networking than the quality of their work in many cases networking is what Get you work. So the work you get inside of a law firm typically comes from networking and work almost always comes from partners.
Who've managed to make contacts outside the firm, which come from networking. And these partners often have gotten involved in the community and met people outside of their immediate [00:07:00] group of people, and that have given them business and spread the word about the attorney and their good work and networking.
And the idea is being able to get a position through networking and the legal job was very subtle because you typically need to have a large group of people with whom you associate both inside and outside of your law firm. And I think you're much more likely to get a position from someone outside of your immediate group of attorneys that you may be associated with than people that are necessarily your close friends.
And, if you know a few people and you stay close to them you're like the only benefit from, again, the information that they have alarm was always already know what that information is. But the thing is that when you're exposed to lots of acquaintances and other people you're going to learn a lot more information and the number could be 10 to 20 times as much information it's a lot.
And, I go out of my way to try to, interact with groups and different people, because I want to be exposed to different types of information about how to do my job or to think about the world. And, [00:08:00] really when you are exposed to lots of different people, it can help you quite a bit.
And he knows a recruiter. I spend a lot of my day talking to people about job openings. And when I recruit, I've often noticed that the best attorneys are our people who are the most open to speaking with me. In fact, when I first started this several years ago I was very surprised.
I Even as a young recruiter, I would call it. Partners very successful partners and they would be very chatty, but when I would call attorneys that weren't as chatty they would hang up on me and be mean, these tended to be people that weren't as successful. And the most successful attorneys are typically actually very nice to recruiters and anybody.
That's providing them information and one interesting thing too, is there's lots of sources of leads that recruiters use are things like the top 40 liars, under 40 in California are America's top trial lawyers. And, if you call people from these lists or interact with them they're almost always happy with their current positions and unlikely to move, but they're almost always as well very open to speaking.
They're not a guarded, they're not they're [00:09:00] interested in any information they can get. And they're just very nice people. And they often asked to send you your card to connect with them. And they always take the time to speak. They returned calls and this is, these are the attorneys that are supposedly like, the most in demand.
And so why is it that the best attorneys are the nicest and the easiest to get through to when the others aren't? And so I think it's the reason that a lot of attorneys are getting on this last 10 considered such good attorneys is because they're very good at networking in the first place.
However they do it they're often able to get the attention of people in the media and other attorneys and other firms. And because members of the public are nominated for these lists and the ability to, as attorneys to get media acknowledgement is meaningful, but many of them are getting this acknowledgement because they're so networked and they're there, they're talking to people and they're out there.
And I was always intrigued because I know when I, whenever I read this last, I know that there. The attorneys out there that are often, far better attorneys who don't make this less, but those attorneys in [00:10:00] terms of their technical proficiency, but those attorneys are often not as networked they're not, they don't have people speaking up for them and saying nice things.
And in a lot of my conversations with attorneys that have made these last I think that one of the reasons I take my phone calls and speak with me is because they highly value any type of network or connection they can get. And a telephone call with me. It would be often very annoying to a less savvy attorney, but by networkers it's typically going to be something that's very important to them because they're going to learn and and I think they value anytime someone can provide them any form of information that they may not be exposed to in their day-to-day practice and life.
They're very likely to be interested in it. So when you learn about how, when you look at how most interviewers learn about jobs in my opinion, they're often learn about them through networks that are really outside their immediate spheres of influence. So the question is, that I would be asking if I was watching this as, how do you network to find a [00:11:00] position and and I've listed some of the ways that I believe are really good to do it.
I'd like to mention that I've noticed known a lot of people that have done nothing but networking and and not been able to find a job, but, often You know the answer the people that don't get jobs through networking, this is pretty basic. It's often that they just don't want a job.
And in many times the attorneys are very easy to spot because they lack the enthusiasm engagement and interest of someone who's going after something that they want. If you're not really interested in that you don't really want something, then, then you probably, aren't going to come across as really one really pushing here, different connections with people and trying to do whatever you can to make sure you get a certain job or not.
And and that's important. So the better you'd network the better off you're going to be. So just going to offense is not going to help you if you don't really want a job. And if you really want it. You're going to have almost like a, a major enthusiasm that's going to come through that, your network, and then people are to want to, hire you or, they're going to, and you're going to be [00:12:00] excited.
You're going to ask questions to get to the next step. So the first thing you need to understand though, is that, how you network with everyone really counts. And this is one of the most important things. So how you act among friends what you say, what you don't say all that stuff matters.
And and and the thing is that you have to remember that everything you say and do counts. So if you're going to get, if you're going to network into a job, you need to be the kind of person that is referrable. And that if it comes across as someone that you would want to refer, I you would want to refer someone that liked their job.
You wouldn't want to refer someone that didn't talk negatively about everyone. You would want to refer someone that worked hard and didn't cut corners. So if you think about all those things, if you can develop a good reputation for yourself and you're helping other people, and you're seen as a force for good, and you're honest, and you volunteer to attend things that don't seem important.
All these things count and People need to see you as the sort of person that they would want to refer, that they would want being their [00:13:00] attorney. If they had an issue or they would want work in their firm if they had a firm. And so everything that you've ever done it was probably known by someone.
Every time you've done something good, every time you'd done something bad. And you, it's known and you want most of that conversation, that stuff to be positive. And if you become a topic of conversation or if someone is interested in passing along your name then there's definitely going to be a good general opinion expressed about you and you want that opinion to be positive.
And you want people to think that you're the sort of person that can be recommended. So just remember, when you're working on anything or any firm you're working at you want to always leave people with a very positive taste in their mouth, even if that you don't get along, there are things aren't going well.
Ultimately you want their memories of you to be positive. And then I emphasize this to a lot of people at it's not something that people always agree to. But I do think it's very important to make yourself known to lots of different people. And one of the reasons that companies and people [00:14:00] hire advertising agencies and public relations firms and all those sorts of companies is they want to make themselves known and they want to be people, large audience that people know who they are.
And and be able to get the attention to people. And, attorneys use recruiters because recruiters have the ability to make, under large groups of people, if they know what they're doing and the right people and get their attention. And, a product is not, will often not sell and unless a large group of people knows about it.
And that's just how it works. And if you think a little bit about this. If people don't know who you are and they don't, they're not talking about you, but they're not seeing you, how can you possibly get a job? The only way to get a job is, to be seen. And and so good recruiters will get you seen.
And and, are very good at that. Networks can also help you the larger network many times and the more indirect contacts the better and smaller cities recruiters are often not used in certain practice areas. They're not in smaller cities as well because everyone knows each other, but in large cities there's many practice groups that, are very networked and everyone, [00:15:00] bankruptcy is an example where attorneys in some markets are very well networked.
So having a network and people saying positive things about you is very important. And bankruptcy attorneys and Silicon valley is a perfect example. They they've always they're having, there's never a ton of them. And so they, they tend to know each other very well, and they share opportunities with that, about the work coming in and different opportunities.
And they're and and I've seen in different downturns. There's been several since 2000 bankruptcy attorneys all kinds of banding together and protecting each other when w when things when there's a lot of work, because they know about all the opportunities and they move and rarely use recruiters because they're very networked and they share information with each other.
And if there's work at their firm, they different people. We'll talk to each other about different opportunities and so forth. There's a very good network of bankruptcy attorneys and it's like that in many parts of the country, but when there's a good network, you don't need you, it's very easy for you to get a job and you hear about jobs and things through your network, and that's [00:16:00] very helpful.
And I w when I, every time I've tried to recruit banker street attorneys in Silicon valley, for example and even LA to a lesser extent though they're just very connected and and they know each other and they know opportunities.
They know what's going on large firms and small firms. And and that can be very helpful to them when they're looking for different opportunities, they're just networks and and there's information, that's CA that's, there's informal information, that formal information and so that information is very useful for the, the, them to find.
Yeah, different positions. Let me just see here. One more thing. I wanted to cover with you. But so most large cities the it's not like bankruptcy. There's there's a lot of individual networks of people. There's sometimes there's not a lot of crossover in those networks.
It can get very important, difficult for attorneys to develop networks of any substance in those markets. Often there's not a lot of attorneys that really realize the importance of all this network. And then there's often a lot of outside organizations and things for [00:17:00] them to get involved in.
And and so there's so much going on many times that the, that it's difficult for you to even imagine, there's the endless supplies of groups and things, and now lay, there's so many legal groups. I There's things that meet almost every day and and, and I used to wonder a long time ago, why attorneys and barriers and so forth could possibly have so much interest in all these groups.
And and I thought, it'd be, you'd almost be better off if you're interested in a certain information about a practice here, you'd almost be better off just picking up treatise and reading about it are going to then going to event because you'd probably get better information, but when you go to meetings and conferences and it's different, even if you have to drive there and pay for parking and sit around an auditorium.
This is exactly the point because you're taking time to meet people. You're listening to people outside of your main, near major circles. You can't just turn off zoom and leave here, meeting people. And you're learning things and you're just, you're connecting and putting a face to names and and you're, you may [00:18:00] develop the opportunity to ask questions personally, in an informal way and get information you might not normally get.
And and the more you go to these meetings, oftentimes the more familiar people are going to become with you. And the more familiar you're going to be with them. And and if you and these networking events, I'm telling you, this is where most of the, a lot of the information comes because you can get jobs for them.
You can get client referrals for them. Just all sorts of things happen. And when a lot of people know you, when things come up, if someone's looking for someone like our attorney referral, or they're trying to hire someone then they'll often mention you and that can be very helpful.
And and they mentioned your name to companies that need help with something. If they don't do that type of work you'll have the opportunity many times to do favors. Sometimes shouldn't be asked to just do some, secretarial type work, meaning, I dunno keep minutes or something at one of these groups or pick something up for them or to make a connection.
And and these favors and the fact that they exist as a positive thing because over time they can lead to reciprocity in terms of other people want to do [00:19:00] favors for you and so forth. And when you go to all these networking events and keep in touch with people, this ultimately really increases your networking responsively possibilities, because you just learn things.
Then if you take an interest in certain causes where you sit on boards I'm a lot, or you write books and papers there's two increases things when people want to talk to you. So everything you do really involves enter interacting with other people and ultimately will increase your networking possibilities and.
One of the largest functions of my job really is making networking happy. And for attorneys that are looking for jobs, and there's lots of ways you can network when you're looking for a job and, there's a few things that I work really well. And most people don't have huge networks and it's not their fault, especially for attorneys because of the way the legal market works.
So a lot of them the recruiters in particular their job is to really help people network and and when times are good many return, people don't think very highly recruiters because they think that all they're doing is making a [00:20:00] simple introduction, but many times it ignores the reality of the situation because the recent the most labor recruiting firms and recruiters aren't that successful.
And they're not effective because they're not really good networkers. They don't know how to bring people together. And so many recruiters just don't know how to, they're not experts in networking the candidates in the jobs or networking candidates stork with them.
There's just a lot of networking that doesn't happen quite well. But my three years ago I heard a story that seemed at the time to me, very strange, but after I heard it, it became more meaningful. And I met this person in Beverly Hills through my wife and the person had come to the United States from a foreign country.
And and and not too long ago, they'd literally come over. They didn't speak much English and and opened a pawn shop. And to the business of this pawn shop was loaning out money to. The stars and other people when they had financial problems and and they would typically borrow money from things like where are expensive [00:21:00] cars, jewelry, and he would loan them pennies on the dollar in exchange for the title to the goods.
And hopefully, the person wouldn't pay it back and then he would keep it and sell it. But people were charged interest and and then and it was a pawnbroker, so they didn't, pick up the goods from the certain period of time. He take possession of them and he became extremely successful doing this.
And he lived on a nice house to Malibu and was having a Playboy lifestyle. I don't think he's ever gotten married. But I asked a couple of people about him how he became so successful because, I just didn't understand, how could owning a pawn shop?
Someone would be so successful because it was a very competitive business. I Anybody can open a pawn shop and any, certainly had an interesting business model, but there was also a little bit more to it. And when he, when he came over to the United States, he came over without significant money.
And he when he came over, he just one second something that was something about this webinar, someone call anyway he he come off, he hadn't had a lot of income and he'd been opening [00:22:00] this, he'd open the small pawn shop, just trading a little things. And the first thing he did was he started asking who is the best public relations person in Los Angeles.
And apparently he asked around for months and he was reportedly told of someone that was so good that her reputation was far better than everyone else. And he called the public relations persons from, and he was rudely told by a receptionist and the person didn't take any new clients unless a public relations person approached them first.
And then, but the man kept calling and for months and eventually he was put through and the public relations person. Is the man talked about how much you wanted her to work for him. And how he heard so many great things about her and all this thing. And after a couple of minutes, the purse, the public relations personality dead, and he told her he ran a punch shot and she quickly got off the phone, said she had no interest in doing public relations.
He also told her that he couldn't afford her because she charged a minimum retainer if this is a long time ago and a couple of hundred thousand [00:23:00] dollars for her work. So the next morning he went the public relations firm and hold a receptionist. You wanted to see her. There are assumptions made a phone call and told the man.
It was totally wouldn't see him. So that he hoped he would wait and he waited. And over the next few weeks the man came by that, the public relations and sat in the waiting room every day until the, from close each night, each day was her boss from say would wait.
And after two weeks of this, the receptionist funding looked up and said, okay, she'll see you now. And he met with her gotten on his knees and begged her. And he was a former commando, I guess he'd been in the country though. Senior that aren't a little bit special forces, whatever the equivalent is there.
And she finally agreed to represent them. And what do you understood me? What many candidates of most legal recruiting firms talent is that there are certain people who by virtue of their position in society are very well-placed and networks and can influence public opinion. And, I could write about the legal recruiting profession ever cause I, I love it, but when it comes right down to it, a [00:24:00] good recruiter can influence the course of your career because the Wellnet were good recruiters to all network and good recruiters are, will network because they're constantly speaking to law firms, but with the law firms need all day everyday.
And they're well networked because by, because of the relationship of law firms, they have a dynamic where. Certain firms are likely to listen to them when the recruiter serious. And there a voice inside of the legal profession and someone who has direct contact with hiring partners and other legal personnel inside of law firms.
And this isn't much different than what I've been public relations can do for a company or individual. They're just people who by their nature society can make your case hurt. And that's what a good PR person does. And I've worked with lots of candidates before that who, before I represented them didn't get a single interview.
And once I was involved, they, some of them hadn't, job offers within a day or two often at the same firms that may not have worked with them initially. Th all I'm saying is, there's certain things a good recruiter can do. That can be just as profound as what a good public relations can do and was able to, this person was able to do for the shop owner, but [00:25:00] he couldn't do himself.
And because of what a good recruiter can do, it's it really shouldn't be surprised that they don't represent everyone in those search. Obviously, a good recruiters have just the public relations person, certain standards otherwise they're going to lose credibility.
And thus recruiting firms will typically have the highest standards for their candidates. And a good recruiter also spends a lot of time and effort on each candidates behalf and can only work with a few people at a time. And good recruiters must also believe in the person like the public relations person up one, I believe in him before she represented the pawn shop owner.
Cause if they believe in the candidate and the person's reasons for getting a job, they're going to be more successful. And if a candidate doesn't really want a job and they're going to be unsuccessful, then the recruiter isn't going to help want to, really want to help them either.
But if I have a candidate that really wants a job, then I typically would do everything within my power to get that person a job where, so someone doesn't you're not. As aggressive. A lot of recruiters, just like a lot of public relations people, a lot of attorneys and so forth aren't [00:26:00] that good at what they do.
In the legal recruiting real world, a lot of people aren't good at it because they're not that networked or they don't they don't nurture individual networks. And when you're using someone to network on your behalf you really need to be in a position that is well-placed and, someone that's knows what they're doing.
That's very important. Given that and recruiters, charge employers fees, The firms they deal with are likely to be the best firms. The candidates, but that's not always the case by any stretch of the imagination. It used to be, but it's not really anymore. Pretty much all firms.
In my opinion, almost all of them now use recruiters, but but a lot of candidates they deal with are going to people coming from the best firms. It's more attorneys and lesser friends with narrow skills are really good qualifications. And so what happens is the involvement a recruiter with these attorneys is a value added and at most firms the best firms expect you're, you're one of those attorneys when you come through them and.
For the very best firms they're often suspicious of it candidates coming to them and not a recruiter because they may think there's something wrong with them for not using a recruiter. So it'd be like almost imagine if [00:27:00] a famous movie star approach to studio and try to negotiate a picture without an agent, just they would think it was strange and they would wonder what was going on.
So that's the same thing that happens with the best attorneys approaching pick law firms. If you typically the, again, they expect that that are you just going to be using a recruiter in most cases it's and again, a Brad Pitt's approach, a small studio without an agent, the studio might be delighted and try to sign him up a low rates.
And that sort of the same thing you've been with if you're, if you try to approach a small firm, many times without a recruiter, they may try to get a better deal for you then. And they would normally pay. I would say probably 90% of attorneys don't really have the credentials to deal with most recruiting firms, but just as the majority of actors and actresses don't really have their credentials to deal with a top agent.
And the majority of people in the market probably shouldn't be dealing with agents, but there's nothing but that's just most markets in the recruiting. Market's a little bit different, I think and the legal placement market that I'm in. I [00:28:00] think that most firms if you have experience in a certain practice area and you know what you're doing and you're good at your job and a committed, then they are happy to use some critters, but in most cases, a lot of people don't fit that bill.
And and often that's very difficult. For a lot of people, but it can be hard to develop a network and, for in most major cities, if you're here an attorney some recruiters can help you do this many times. And and I think that one of the reasons for using recruiters.
Just because the, the attorney the recruiter can really help me network but if you're looking for a job without a recruiter one of the ways that I recommend is, you really need to create your own network very quickly. And one of the ways you can do that as a, that I recommend is just apply to all the firms and they give them market that match your interest.
So if you want to do employee benefits in a certain market, look up all the firms that do that and apply to all the people that do that in the market then, and that connection be a very effective method. And and [00:29:00] it can work very well. And LA cross scene as a company that I run it typically has, over 150,000 jobs in outside, not 50,000, but this company monitors that the needs of every law firm corporation in the country and but, it can be very effective.
The point is that that you really need to do whatever you can to network. And in anything you can do to network and develop a strong network is going to be very helpful for you in your career and your job search. Now, the next part of this presentation, I think is probably even more important to some extent, and this is about the importance of networking to keeping the job inside of a law firm.
And in most law firms unless you can unless you understand networking, it's very hard to keep your position for an extended period of time. You need to have a very strong network within your organization and most cases to survive. I can remember when I was employed inside law firms.
One thing that became clear to me is, most people that end up losing their jobs inside of law [00:30:00] firms are not fired because their performance is poor. They're let go because people don't like them. So you know, when they're fired it can be the one person doesn't like them, or it could be several people don't like them.
So let's just think about this for a second. If you think that one person not liking you inside a law firm isn't a big deal. You probably think you don't have much of a problem. And, there's very few people inside of any law firm, more than I would say, 10 people that don't have anybody that, where there's everyone likes them.
It's just how things work. There's a saying that goes, 30% of the people will love you. 30% of the people will hate you and 30% of the people won't care. And so there's an hour hates maybe, I would say 30% would like you, 30% won't care, 30%, one like you.
So it's just the rule of thirds. But if one person doesn't like you, that's a, high up in the firm you're certainly going to be on the defensive one person usually can't bring you down. For reasons that don't have are substantive, but they can certainly hurt you.
So if one person doesn't like you they're typically [00:31:00] going to look for a way small ways to slight you both in your presence and outside your president presence. They may attempt to get other attorneys inside the firm to dislike you. They may they may do things like talk behind your back start rumors speak negatively, valued other attorneys.
And and the only way you're going to become aware of that and it really to be able to defend yourself against that is if you have a strong network and you have people out there that are you know, making you aware of this and. And also that will defend you. I hear a lot of times. When people say things like I'm going to keep my head down when they're place and just do my work and and and, go home at the end of the day, I'm not going to get involved in the politics.
Like I did at the place I was before. And when I used to hear this sort of statement, my thought was always that the person was being smart. And I think there's a lot to be said about being network inside of a law firm. But if you're not what network you're really going to have you're not going to have a high risk of sending people, but at the same time it's not always the best thing.
You don't want to go too far with your networking and getting, you get too entangled in it, but at the same time you need [00:32:00] to be careful. Common mistakes that people make are they, they sleep with people in the office is one that, that at some places that's not going to hurt you, but it.
Generally not a good idea. If you say stupid things about your boss, it backs up other attorneys when you're, I, out at work and so forth or at the office, that's not a good and it's really good to avoid that kind of stuff and maintain a distance. And if you can that's good and, a network does things like tells you who to avoid, which partnership wide.
It can tell you who has the most power, even when it's not evident. It can tell you who's on the way out. It can tell you who has a lot of work I can give you work who may be doing things right. And all these things are useful, can help you in growing and and access to this information really can help you survive.
And so without this you may be you're going to be penalized and and so you need that information in order to do well. You need to have access to those tidbits of information because that can show you, how to act and what to do. And it's very useful. So if you're on networked then you could, you could end up [00:33:00] having very significant long-term problems in your career.
And and it's just something to really think about. So I think, an entire treaty is honestly, it could be written about the value of network. And and I would like to talk a little bit about how. You know how, if you don't network you're here, it can really hurt your legal career even, but I'm never prevented from taking off.
And I think that the inability to do this as often one of the strongest thing, things that hurts legal careers the most. So when I was in college, I was a great student. I don't know what happened. Certainly didn't last in law school. But but I was one of 10 really good students in my class who are nominated for like scholarships and all these different types of things.
And and the school had some meetings where they got everyone together at, to talk about things and and and most, none of us got the scholarships or at least some, none that year. But they got Fullbrights and stuff, but so the ones of us who didn't help, most of us might be to law school.
And and I remember one of the students being very close with one of our professors [00:34:00] and thinking that she was a brown noser, and I didn't understand why she would spend so much time talking to this particular professor. And he was actually a professor in the the law school in university of Chicago.
And and he was quite well known in the academic community and and at some point in their professional relationship, she told him why her first choice school was for law school. And she told him this one evening where it's some event and discussing where everyone was applying to law school.
And a couple of days before law school applications were due she sent her Zen and within five days of Senator application across the country, she R she received an acceptance letter back from the law school in the mail. So she sent her application. They'd literally probably had a one day and they sent her an acceptance back.
The, almost the same. And most people had to wait for months. And the idea to me was, she was a good student and a great test scores and stuff, but I think that, I don't think that, the number one law school in the country is just accepting people that quickly. There [00:35:00] must've been something going on in the background to make that happen.
And I'm pretty sure it had to do with the professor and the other law school that she was close with. And then when I was in my second year of law school, I was sitting outside the office of a fairly famous professor that became the Dean actually of another big law school. And I was waiting to speak to them about a paper.
And I noticed he'd spent a lot of time with chatting with other students and another student hall. I think she was his like TA or something like that. And they were always debating about one topic or another. And and so again, she was someone that I pegged as a brown noser and and I was thinking that she was wasting her time talking to this professor about this intellectual stuff.
And she was smart. Maybe she'd spent more time studying. I dunno. So thinking kind of negative thoughts and and I had some mutual acquaintances of her and knew that she was an average, but not stellar student. But then I heard something that day that was quite astonishing to me and something I'll never forget.
The professor said something when I was on the phone, something like [00:36:00] this, he said something like your grades are fine. So work hard. I've already talked to X from my firm. They're not going to make her an offer. She belongs with you and if you make an offer, so except if she's perfect and and I already spoke to your friend me told me, make an exception on the grades for me.
And so I, at the time had no idea that this sort of thing went on. I just she ended up at a really good firm something that she probably wouldn't normally have gotten into. And and what had happened is someone had gone to bat for her at her. W whether without her knowledge, I don't know and got her a great job.
And somewhere near miss, there's probably someone who's very powerful and and that person can get you started as these two people got their boosts from, powerful and network well-networked professors. And so these students hadn't taken the time to get no work with these professors as they did.
These results may never have occurred. These students did a really good job networking with just one person that was dead. And two people, one got into, top law school in the United States and other one got into probably the top firm. And I think there was a lot of [00:37:00] networking going on in the background.
So imagine if in your legal career, you're able to put yourself in the corner of 10, 20, 50, or a hundred people that are like that. That's what happens when people become, people like the present the United States, how does a man from a blue collar family in Arkansas become the president United States?
How does a Hollywood actor become the president? Huh. I once heard some, something about bill Clinton that he'd never forgot a face that anybody that he met. And I'm not sure that this is true. But I do know he used to keep no cards and I've heard of, stories about him walking up to people that he met for a moment only 20 to 30 years previously in St.
Hello and asking about their life and their family all over the United States. There's, well-networked people whose careers are in the stratosphere all sorts of people and and many people that, you wouldn't think are, were really great attorneys for many reasons.
But but they're considered good attorneys by the public because. Th that the way they network themselves and they're more influential. They make more money than most attorneys and and it's because they're networked and they're known to people and they've been [00:38:00] managed to do that with a media out things.
And so in the large firm arena aside from the media, there's lots of attorneys who are very well networked both inside and outside their law firms. And there's so well network that their law firms would likely, never want to risk losing them. They the law school classmates that, call you every six months to see how you're doing.
Are there people that you meet that, nuns know lots of people all over the country. And those are the sorts of attorneys that have the most business and the most power inside the law firms and people who really succeed in the practice a lot. And they succeed because they have the ability to connect with numerous people.
So if you fail to network with associates and partners your events, you're going to run into problems. And if he fell in network outside of your firm, either you're going to have more. Called to get him a job at and also having security so you need to do whatever you can to network it's important.
You need to meet people. You need to leave a positive impression, needs to in contact with people. And I think that a lot of times when people fell in the practice of law, it's because they're not networked. And [00:39:00] I see regularly, daily several times a day you'd have today probably, or, partners, not that many times, but a lot.
Partners with lots of, from major firms. They don't have a lot of business in many times. These partners may have risen through the associate ranks based on their hard work and dedication and became partner because they had people in their corner Swiss network, but they also had the firm had enough work to support them.
And they may not have risen like that. If the firm from that had a lot of business. But this is a very dangerous position to be in because a lot of people make partner in law firms that don't have a lot of business. And if you don't have a lot of business you're going to be, let go. If the work that the firm's doing is drying up and going away and it can't be any other way.
Your partner needs to have to be self-sustaining in terms of their work. And if you sit in your office all day and night just turn out legal work and you don't network with clients and other people on the process your contribution is going to be limited to that. And and if you try to bring in your own work your contribution is greater and the firm will want to keep you around.
When I talk to partners. So business, I asked them how they did it, and they always say things [00:40:00] like lots of, dinners and bottles of wine, or, they just, they go through those sorts of statements. And the idea is that, if the partner's networking and they're out there then they're typically bringing in business and work and and the people that do bring in business are the ones that have the best careers.
I've seen partners. From major law firms, have to S set up their own shop after they were let go from the firm. And and I've seen, people even go so far as to open diners and small towns and things after losing their jobs because there's nothing they can do.
They, then they're just not networked. And so you just need to understand that, your ability to succeed as an attorney is really going to be dependent on networking, and you can't have longevity without it. You can't stand at from your net wall network. You can't learn about new jobs.
If you're not in that well network, you can't get business. If you're not well networked and you can't protect yourself if you're not well networked. So all of these things are unbelievably important for you doing well in the long run. It's one of the most important [00:41:00] things that you can ever do for the long-term success in the practice of law and your ability to network is going to be very important.
And and I think that one of the greatest tragedies of law school is is the, networking is hardly emphasize it's with larger firms. They don't necessarily care. They're going to bring in people that have business, they're going to have certain people that emerge a business.
They don't need to train you in these things. They there's there's lots of people with lots of work. So no, one's going to tell you you have to do this stuff, and I'm telling you, you have to protect your career. And the only way to succeed really is to go out and form these networks and and then use his networks and I remember once when I was.
When I was fairly new practicing law that I had a friend like from, and he told me, and he made partner fairly quickly. And he told me that, you don't have to work all the time. No one's ever going to tell you that it's not in their best interest even to make time for yourself and your own.
And if you work all the time they'll never have things that [00:42:00] time to do the things you want to do for yourself. And I thought that was a good point. And essentially what he was saying is, you certainly you can't work all the time. You need to do other things near networking can certainly be related to getting business.
But that is one of the most important things. So I'm going to take a quick break and then when I come back we will take questions. And just any questions you have about today's presentation or anything else that I spoke about today you can ask or just anything to do with your career?
This is it's it's a good time. If you're a young attorney to ask questions or if you're an older attorney to ask questions and take as much time as you guys have for questions. Thank you.
Yeah.
Okay. We'll start with questions. I got a shirt to change here, so let me just give me one second. Okay. So the first question, and this is my favorite part of the week is taking questions. Give me one second. Any questions you guys have by the way? Are all good questions? Let me just sit, so don't be afraid to ask them a lot of people typically will ask questions [00:43:00] about know, you can ask about the webinar or you can certainly ask any questions you have about your career in general.
So let me open up real quickly. Screen again. Just give me one second
here.
Okay. First one. This is nice. Let's see. First question is says this was a wonderful presentation cutting to the hardest success. What would you recommend as a good first step in networking for a 56 year old, a solo practitioner who really has no net worth? Okay. One thing I didn't let me just get the storm.
One thing I didn't touch upon today is a there's a book and I think it's called never send a resume. And and I really liked that book. And I've sent it to people before that have lost jobs and that sort of thing that have brought up a lot of the same things that you have.
Even as a solo practitioner, a lot of times people aren't necessarily building networks. And when you're not building networks, you can definitely. Somewhat health harm, discouraging when you start, when you do try to build a network what they say in this book is that you're supposed to write down a [00:44:00] list always write down a list of a hundred plus people that, so write down a, list of a hundred plus people that, so they could be friends past acquaintances just people that you may not be in touch with family and others that you may have had some sort of personal, or, friendly relationship with in the past.
And just write all those people down and, it can typically be past cop half-court politics and all sorts of things. And when you write all that information down most people can come up with about a hundred people that they know, some people can come up with 200 and in that, and with those numbers, when you write them down and then the best thing, your, what you're supposed to do with those people, and this is, this was taught a long time ago in a business generation class for law firms that I actually took, it was an in-depth class.
And this has all day this talk about something somewhere to this and never send a resume. And then this was always given as a way to get business and find jobs and so forth as well. But [00:45:00] you write down a list of a hundred people that. And then once you write down that list, you get in touch with those people.
You try to call them and make personal contact with a phone call or you meet them. Or you tell them that, you saw something that reminded of them and you just try to check in and you don't talk about the fact that you're looking for work. You don't talk about the fact that, you're looking for a job.
You don't talk about anything. You just basically ask them about themselves and check in and see how they're doing. And then typically at some point, they'll ask you about yourself and then you tell them something along the lines of I, I'm looking for a position or I'm doing this, or I'm just trying to get out there and meet people.
And that I hope you're doing well. And so that's one of the first steps to networking is you do that. And then once you do that, then people, a lot of times will just remember you and refer things to you. And if they know of leads even if they're not good contacts they'll often reach out to you.
And they'll often tell or will often tell you about those days. And people love providing people with leads. There's some articles that [00:46:00] I've also written that aren't based on this that are on my blog site, which needs to be redone in a serious way. But Harrison, barnes.com about networking and there's some articles about that.
And that kind of teaches what I'm taught, what I've talking about there, but this is one of the things that I recommend a lot of times, I don't like I do zoom calls all day. And and I zoom is I liked, I like zoom, but I also I think that there's so much more you get when you meet people in person.
So that's one of the things for networking. I think that, you need to always write down people, and past colleagues and it leads with hope. People have leads and so forth and that's one way to network. Another thing that's important also. Learning how to let me even see if I have, I don't have that how to be vulnerable.
And when you're, when they're vulnerable a lot of times people will relate to you. So people want to help people that are vulnerable. And one of the problems with attorneys instead of most attorneys are afraid to be likable. You're afraid to show weakness with clients.
You're afraid to show weakness to [00:47:00] people at work, but in your personal life and with friends and acquaintances and so forth a believability, it goes a long way. And and it's something, that that I personally. Believe it's very important because when people like you and they can see you as a human, then you become a lot more.
So if you tell people, what you're trying to do or what, any struggles you're going through, or you connect with them on a personal level, then people typically but like you much more and that's a good way to network. So networking is not just about being very personal in terms of your are very, being seen.
It's also about being liked and people like people that are vulnerable. So this is one of the things that I would recommend in terms of how you network 56 year old is by the way, not old I know attorneys that are in their mid eighties and still pounding away. You're basically halfway through your career.
If that people will probably live even longer in the future, but that's some of the networking things that I recommend that I think are most important. I think, when you write down a [00:48:00] list of people, when you when you call them and make contact with them and make an effort when you check in with them then people like that.
There was one attorney that I knew. And I like, and he actually does this funny thing where he he sends this long letter, a long letter every year, a long letter of about, five to 10 pages of what he's doing. He talks about, w I don't know anything. You can imagine his diet his, operations is imports are going to get pillows.
Co-branded, he'll write up a bite, anything. I get this thing every Christmas and and I love it. And and then sometimes they'll include a picture. I don't even, I haven't even seen the guy in 20 years, but he sends us to all these different people. And and then, and then, and because of that, I always think of them and I did get them job interviews, and I have people talk to him and I get, I've gotten them business and all this stuff, which is very funny because all I'm doing is sending this guy fricking letters.
All he's doing is sending me a letter that he's probably [00:49:00] sending to hundreds of other people every year. And he's at a very distinguished career he's done really well. And he's, but his what's nice about his letters is they show this vulnerability. He talks about himself. He's he's he talks about the mistakes he's made.
I don't even remember I think, and then he got divorced and he met his new wife and he talked about how he knew thing. I dunno, it was just, he goes into a lot of things. He says a lot of things you normally wouldn't think someone would talk about in a letter and especially in attorney and it works.
So the point is that when you can be vulnerable and connect with people and people can see you for who you are, then that can help a lot. And and it can really make people want to see you. And one of the things that I've always done is I've had a personal blog and things that I try to write about personal things.
And I don't do it from a business standpoint. I do it because I've learned a lot of things myself, and I try to share them with others because I think that they can help that I'm sharing this with you now, but at the same time when you can learn to be vulnerable and get in touch with people that can help [00:50:00] posting on social networks and things, or connecting with people or liking posts, and, all that in your personal life can carry over also into your professional life.
Okay. And thank you for that question, by the way that, that was a great question. Mary has gotten more, I love these questions as a law student, rising three hours. What should I bring being to network to get a first year job given that there are no in-person events? Should I be cold emailing partners of firms look interesting?
Yes. You shouldn't be clothing, mailing partners. I actually printed letters I think, even though lot of people sending emails to stuff now I like printed letters. I'd like voicemail messages sometimes. Those can tack fire to some extent.
I think that it's always a good idea to speak with the recruiting coordinators inside of law firms inside of law firms about things ask them questions. A lot of them are very nice and can help you. Even if they can't help you at their firm, you can ask them a question about what they're looking for and so forth.
If they can't help you [00:51:00] many times, they can they can those people, same people can can see and make recommendations so they can make recommendations places to take them to be good fits. So that's one of the ways to do things you can, I think sometimes when you get rejected from affirm after an interview, or even you just get an email some from them, you can ask them, do you think, do you have any ideas of other places I should apply?
Of other places.
And that's often very useful because you may have one of the things, one of the reason that this is a very powerful thing is because you may have a certain type of personality or a certain look or a certain, I don't know, look is the right word, but you may be a certain type of person.
And as a certain type of person, you may actually be much better off interviewing with with a certain so conservative there's firms that are very liberal there's firms that are very that have a lot of authority and are run like a military ship. And there's ones that aren't and so [00:52:00] different people are comfortable in different types of firms.
And so a lot of times when a firm's interviewing you, they just are saying, you're not a good cultural fit, sorry, we're not going to hire you, but they may know of five or six firms that are a good cultural fence. So I would always recommend when you get rejected asking people for places that look good.
I also do recommend you, how do you network by getting involved in groups? You get involved in as many groups as you can. You get involved in groups with with your whatever, if you have a religion with with sports, with, but other attorneys, wherever you possibly can, and then you learn information from them.
So all that information you learned from groups is very important. There's, in the role that I'm in, as a CEO, there's all sorts of CEO groups. There's tons of them. And every time I get involved in one of these groups, it literally blows my mind because there's things that people are doing that that I just, aren't, I'm not aware of.
It's and there's information that other people have about the way things are. So your success and the success of most CEOs is proportional. To in their network. One of [00:53:00] the things that's I found very interesting is when you talk to a very successful corporate attorneys, like the most successful corporate attorneys, like when you, they become partners and stuff, they typically have a huge Rolodexes.
So they can put you in touch. With all sorts of things. Like when I say roll the taxes, huge contacts. They know people that can get anything done, so whatever you need they can get done as long as it's, related to the lawn business, but if it's finance, whatever, so they have all these contacts and that's really what this corporate attorneys are doing.
Taking care of their networks. I do think that, when you're applying to. Trying to get a job in a new city, you should be contacting people. You should be doing asking alumni from your school for information interviews just getting as much information as you possibly can.
People like to help other people like to help other people and make recommendations, everyone. It's just taught to know that it's important for them to help other people and people feel good when they [00:54:00] help other people. They feel good about it. So it's just something that that I would recommend.
And again, the problem that a lot of law students and attorneys have is the lack of the vulnerability and the ambitious with vulnerability, because if you're a vulnerable when you're vulnerable that can create problems in terms of you, you feel like, you're not, as, you're not meaning you don't want people to know about your weaknesses and so forth, but the honorability is actually the key to strength.
There's a whole series of books by Renee brown about vulnerability and why that's a good idea. And I would recommend reviewing stuff by her and so forth, and there's just all sorts of exercises, that can help you. And this is again one of the mistakes that I've certainly.
I've made early in my career was not doing a good job now with things. There's certainly online groups you can join. I'd love to, I'd love to start networking groups online for attorneys. I wish I could, that's one of the things I would also networking, you can also, we have another, I have another cycle top law schools and and there's a lot of I would [00:55:00] recommend reviewing that.
The reason is because there's just a lot of sharing of information on there about employers and all sorts of things that people can even comment anonymously and ask questions. And so that could be very helpful. Another question would starting law school in my thirties be a problem and the answer is no. And unless you mind working long hours when you get into your thirties but I don't think starting law school in the thirties was a problem at all.
When it comes to the job seeking, I never asked a good network group them to help them. It may damage relationships are about it's about pride. What is your thought? So I don't think you necessarily ask your network for help and you don't necessarily and I agree when you ask for. But does do sometimes Telegraph weakness.
You, you basically need to get in touch with people and and just ask them how they're doing. So do not ask for help ask people in your network
and then listen, that's it. T
