Why Going In-house Is Often the Worst Decision a Good Attorney Can Ever Make

Transcript

[00:00:00] hello. so today's presentation, is about, uh, fairly, important topic. And, it's something that, I've spoken about, to a lot of attorneys, in the past. and honestly, probably comes up, on a daily basis. And, because attorneys are always looking to make the decision of whether or not, they're interested in going in house.

[00:00:21] And, and I need to often talk to people about why, that can be, and, may not necessarily be a good idea for them. And so this is what this presentation is about. And. what I will do is after today's talk well, also, answer questions and I know there may be a lot of questions about this particular, webinar and, and as answer the questions, hopefully, everyone will.

[00:00:48] Oh, get a little bit better, insight into this topic because it is an important topic in a lot of respects because your career, can be altered in a fairly major way, by going in house. And, [00:01:00] and it's just something that a lot of people, I don't think, always understand that's the direction.

[00:01:05] So I remember, the first kind of, introduction that I had to going in house was when, I was practicing law and I started noticing kind of all these, goodbye attorney, goodbye parties for attorneys when they were leaving the firm. And I'm sure anybody that's worked in a law firm knows that you always there's always these departure memos going around and it can depend on the size of the firm, but.

[00:01:25]if an attorney was leaving to go to another law firm, typically, go to the government or something. And there was generally not a lot of people that would go to these, going away parties. They were often, there just wasn't a lot to them and very few people would show up and.

[00:01:38]sometimes there would be nothing at all. And, people just wouldn't really say anything, but when people would go in house, I would always notice that there would be this kind of giant parties and, part partners, it could be in the middle of the trial and they would show up at a party in lunch and, and people would be very nice and never be these big.

[00:01:57]big things going on. And, the attorney would be told, how [00:02:00] much they were respected, what good day of work. They had done people to bring gifts and it's just, it, to me, I didn't understand what's going on, but I noticed the pattern of very early on that when someone was going in house, there was a much different reception, than when, They were simply going to work and, and another law firm.

[00:02:16] And, and even during these events, partners would, jockey for.  position, they would, people were just very friendly and, and it was funny. I just, I was remembering, one of these particular, parties and it was, it was an attorney that, it was, very awkward and, with glasses and, blankie and we'll walk through this head down and, but I saw him and never looked so happy in his life at this party.

[00:02:38] And, No. And it was just, I remember that, I still can see it in my mind, even though it was, two decades ago.  th these lunches were just unlike anything I'd ever seen and that there was something I look forward to, and everyone just seems so upbeat. And, and I didn't at the time really understand it.

[00:02:54] I just and even what was going on back then, didn't even occur to me, why it was like that until years [00:03:00] later, when I started understanding the legal profession better when I wasn't even practicing. But you know what these, celebrations really were about. I think they're more like funerals in many respects because when an attorney goes in house, A lot of things happen, that they don't expect.

[00:03:15]there's this kind of, belief that, your life is going to suddenly be better. You're going to have fewer billable hours. You're going to have a much more, easier job. And, in reality, there's just a lot of. it's not necessarily what it seems like it's cracked up to be.

[00:03:31] And I'm going to talk about that today, and I'm going to talk about why that myth kind of perpetuates itself and, and what I've seen happen to attorneys go in house, because for the most part, and I'll just say this right up front. When I see attorneys going house, that they will have suddenly all these periods of unemployment and all these issues and, job to job.

[00:03:52] And, often the first in house job, they don't last very long. it's just, it's a, it's not good. It's a completely different job than working in a law firm. And I'm going to talk about that, [00:04:00] today. And, and in many cases, these celebrations you could be know, could be akin to funerals because once you leave a law firm, you're leaving behind an entire way of business, and something that, anyone can really succeed at.

[00:04:13] I liked the book, the hunger games and the movie. And, it's fun. when the, these tributes are going off to fight, where they're most likely to die, they're often given, wonderful food and treatment. and then, they go off to a fight where almost everyone ends up losing.

[00:04:28] And, but during that time, they're treated very well. and they're put into position, where they're treated better than. anybody may ever have been, then they've ever been in their lives and, and, for the most part, up until that time, they've been forced to leave them, let them leave depressing circumstances, And so for one moment in time, people are very nice to them. they make them feel important and, that's almost like what this, the celebration, when an attorney's getting ready to go in house is like, And, the thing is inside of a law firm. nothing, really is [00:05:00] ever, as it seems, the parties and these myths and so forth, are, really one of the most dangerous, romanticize things that I've seen, ever.

[00:05:08]And the legal profession, because going in house most often in my opinion, because it's just a major curricular, I've seen it destroy the careers lives and families of more attorneys than I can count. I speak to attorneys that made the mistake of going in house. at least. Once a week, many times they have gotten up and they've moved from a major city to another city and, sometimes a small city and very quickly they lose their jobs.

[00:05:33] And I'm going to talk to you about that, why that happens, but then they can't find another job. Law firms won't hire them. In many cases, they may have spent two or three years trying to find an in-house job. So you can imagine it's even harder to find an in-house job. when you're in a position where, you don't have a job, and, and I speak to people, not every day at this point, at least weekly and it's depressing.

[00:05:54] I certainly see resumes where people like this week later. but I want to first, just let you know [00:06:00] some facts, that kind of perpetuate the myth that going in-house is a good thing. and I just want you to be aware of them

[00:06:05] the first thing is, who wouldn't want to go in house, after seeing, you, one of these, kind of giant presentations for the party attribute, and never, in your life, what, at attorney B career, lauded and made to feel so good about themselves ever again.

[00:06:19]I'm in the, I used to travel a lot and I would often see, when, when a, a pilot, retires, their last flight, typically they'll park a firetruck out in front of a, the, the plane and they will, spray water, over the, the plane is the plane, the pilot, Drives him.

[00:06:34] And, and that's, really the extent of the celebration that someone gets for, 30 or 40 years of, flying, at the same time, when you go in house, the attorney, really, we're just one second. I'm sorry. Okay.

[00:06:47]Sorry about that fish. Okay. So yeah, but the idea is that, the, the attorneys are made to feel very good. it looks like a very, happy thing and people are made to feel, almost like they're heroes, in the eyes of their [00:07:00] superiors and other attorneys, when they leave.

[00:07:01] And so it looks like a very good thing, but the truth is, and this is something that's important to understand, right? Is that one of the reasons attorneys and others, are made to feel good about themselves and they make you feel good about yourself when this happens is because these attorneys represent, potential business.

[00:07:18] And that's just a fact, law firms need business and attorneys need business. And you may find mentors and stuff inside of a law firm from a business standpoint, partners, Are our most concerned and their whole survival inside of law firms depends upon getting business.

[00:07:32] And suddenly treating an attorney that goes in house very well is someone that's likely to give them business in the future. And that's the reason they don't really show up, but people that are going to other law firms or, going to work for the government, typically they don't care, but in fraternity's going in house, they do.

[00:07:49] And, keep in mind that, every, Working in a law firm and the legal profession, and especially in law firms is a game. And anybody that can help you get business inside of a law firm, is [00:08:00] someone that, or outside of a law firm, that attorneys need to be nice to. attorneys join organizations, they give talks, they write papers, they do all sorts of things in order to, get business.

[00:08:10] And, what better way to get business then? from someone that you've worked with in the past, and this is just the way, the profession has always worked. good law firm, attorneys and good attorneys go out of the way they meet people. They try to ingratiate themselves and they do whatever they can to.

[00:08:27]Ingratiate themselves. And, with people that are likely to give them business and that's just how it works and how it's always worked. the next thing is, the reason that people go want to go in house is because of the hours, in a law firm and often, the way that attorneys are treated inside of law firms.

[00:08:43] And. the idea for every attorney that they learn, very early on is, if you're unhappy and one environment, meaning in a law firm where, you're, working all the time, then it's very easy for you to, are can, very easily go into a, [00:09:00] I'm sorry, just one more second and having all these technical problems this morning, and it's just not good.

[00:09:04]let me see here. I'm not going to worry about it. okay. but if, just one sec, I apologize.

[00:09:09]All right. Sorry guys. So this is the last I promise that's the last interruption. okay. But if you're, the idea is that if you're unhappy and unworked in one environment or overworked, if you go into a different environment, everything is going to be much better. And, and if you go into a different environment, your life is going to change.

[00:09:25] And, many people believe that, the problem. With practicing law is the environment that they're in. They believe that, that all they need to do to be happy is changed the practice setting and it's that easy. And if you do that, you're going to have a happy, legal career and, people will always say, when they do something else too, if you talk to people that go in house.

[00:09:45] So I always say, Oh, I'm so much happier. This is so much better and so forth. And that's just. not always the case. if you ever talk to, one of your exes, they're probably always going to tell you that they're much happier in our relationship and so forth, than they may be now.

[00:09:58] And, and that's just, [00:10:00] and people, aren't always honest about this stuff. so this is just something to keep in mind. And the fact that is that becoming an in-house counsel is. not really something that always makes people happy and in most cases, not in off, but in most cases, going in house can actually, destroy your career and I've seen it more often than I can even imagine.

[00:10:21]I, one of my mentors, a very good attorney, one of the top attorneys, I think at this practice area in the country, when in house, not too long ago. And, after an exceptionally good career with a law firm, ended up losing his job and, and then getting sued for malpractice and having all sorts of problems.

[00:10:38]and this is a very well, nationally known attorney and this kind of thing happened, all the time. People just have very bad experiences quite often. And, I'm going to talk to you about all the reasons, but, here are a few of the reasons I think that, Do you know, that are really the most.

[00:10:53]negative about going in house and why it's such a problem. the first thing is that, you're going to, your skills are going to [00:11:00] tear it very rapidly, significantly. in-house attorneys tend not to do the most important work. They, do not want to be liable for making mistakes and they will learn very quickly that.

[00:11:10]it's better for them to send work outside to law firms than it is for them to do it themselves. And they will become experts in doing that and, sending work to law firms and not done by that just becomes, something that they do and they become experts, actually not doing it.

[00:11:25]and, having other people do it just what happens. And so your skills typically will tear out rapidly and significantly. And because you become an expert. And giving work to other people and not doing it yourself. you develop an attitude that, law firms want to avoid.

[00:11:40] Law firms. Don't want to hire people like that. Law firms want to hire people that are going to run it out and do the work and bring in clients. And then when you're in-house you just don't get those skills. Another thing. I need you to do something to talk more in depth about, but you'll also become a cost center.

[00:11:55] And what that means is, the companies will pay you money and, [00:12:00] and unlike a law firm where, you know, if you work one hour, and they, they pay you a certain amount or if you were, but they're billing you out at, three, four times what they're paying you, in a law, in a company and that's not necessarily happening.

[00:12:11] And. and so when companies slow down, and they all do, they look at ways to eliminate people that aren't generally money attorneys that are in-house are typically, some of the first people to get up. They think, we can put off some of this work that they're doing for awhile and so forth.

[00:12:27] And then the other thing is it becomes, very difficult to get a job in a law firm in the future. Very few. in-house attorneys are ever transitioned back into law firms. Now, certainly they do, in some practice areas and some cases, but it's very rare. law firms will avoid in-house attorneys.

[00:12:43]almost like the play. they just really don't want anything to do with them. And, I, and I say this as someone, That's, consistently, always trying to place in house attorneys and I do succeed at it, but it's very difficult. And unless you have very where skills are something that can be very hard to get a job in house.

[00:12:59]in a law firm, [00:13:00] when you're coming from in-house, another thing is,  law firms typically, our companies want to hire younger attorneys for the best in-house counsel jobs so that they know that their skills are fresh, or they know that, once someone gets more senior inside of a company, they become experts in giving work to other people and not doing that themselves.

[00:13:16]they want people that are more impressionable like law firms. just like law firms prefer younger attorneys, most in-house companies do as well. And when companies are looking for it, attorneys typically are always most interested in house attorneys. it's very difficult. once you're, you have an in-house job to get another one, many times as you get more senior.

[00:13:36]the other important point that I'm going to talk more about today too, is that when you're in house, you really do not have appliance and clients of your own. And without clients, you don't really have any control over your career. So what that means is, attorneys, as they get more senior inside of law firms are expected to get clients and.

[00:13:53] Once you get clients, those people are giving you work and the law firm has provided support. And that's just the way the business model has [00:14:00] worked inside of law firms, as long as there have been law firms. And unfortunately, when you go in house, you don't really have clients and you don't have any control over your career.

[00:14:09] And the other thing that happens to a lot of in-house attorneys, and I see this all the time, attorneys in different parts of the country, as people, companies experience legal problems. a company like general motors may be sued for, a recall or something, or people may get injured or, a company in one industry may have issues and so forth, or a company may be accused of fraud and so forth.

[00:14:31] And so the problem is if you're a attorney inside of a legal department, When these things occur and they all, they occur in all companies, then if you're anybody that's, believed who had touched the matter you're likely to lose your job and you often become unemployable at other companies as well.

[00:14:47]just because you were there when something bad happened that you may not even have had any experience doing it. Another thing that, attorneys don't often understand when they go in house is the job of an in-house attorney, [00:15:00] is much different than a law firm in an in-house attorney. When an attorney goes in-house, they often believe that their job is to find, problems and things that the company's doing wrong.

[00:15:11] Like they, may want to make sure that the company is registered properly with a state and they're in different cities and doing things in the correct way. And, and people do not want to hear that inside of companies many times. th the attorneys can become people that are telling management things that can't be done.

[00:15:27] They're telling them, business actions, they can't take emails, they can't send different things, that can't happen. And because of that, they become what I call the resonant buzz kills. and these attorneys are more concerned about covering their backs than by, telling management how they can get things done.

[00:15:44] And they become disliked in many companies. most executives and senior executives. in inside of companies want in-house counsel who are going to help them get things done and help them kind of work in the gray areas in order to make money. And, and people that don't [00:16:00] help them do that, are typically people that they don't want.

[00:16:02] So just imagine, for example, if when, a company like Uber was started, Did the head in-house counsel that was telling them it's impossible to run Uber, unless you make everybody an employee and not an independent contractor, who's a driver and did nothing but talk about that.

[00:16:17]those people would not be welcomed because it would make an impossible for the company to expand. And yet that's the job of many, people, that, go in-house, is to do those sorts of things. So I'm going to talk more about all this, later, because it's very important. But just keep in mind when you go in house.

[00:16:33]the fantasy that a lot of attorneys have is, suddenly someone's gonna right your legal advice and so forth and be very excited for it. But the opposite actually often occurs. they don't want the legal advice of. the in-house journey and they become avoided and unless you're helping the management or the company, expand and do the things they want to, that they're not really gonna be that interested in is your advice many times, even though you may be trying to cover [00:17:00] up for them, they want people that will help them get things done.

[00:17:03]And that's a much different job. The many attorneys have inside of law firms. So inside of law firms, attorneys are constantly talking about, why they want to go in house. everybody's talking about, why this is such a big dream and why it's such a great thing.

[00:17:18] And, and I hear this all the time. It's almost, the better the firm, the more people are talking about going in house, and it doesn't matter many times. what, from the attorneys at, they could be at, some of the best firms in the country like Wachtell or Davis Polk.

[00:17:32]they all seem to dream about going in house. I've seen, people that are, partners making actually more than 450,000 making, over a million dollars a year that don't want to go on house.  they could be attorneys that are the absolute top of their game. that have, are very well-respected.

[00:17:48]I've spoken with attorneys that have, 3 million or even, 10 or $15 million in business. I've spoken with attorneys at all levels, w with, with all types of business that want to go and, and it doesn't [00:18:00] matter who these attorneys are. almost regardless of the attorney's qualifications, they somehow think that.

[00:18:05]Going in house is something that's going to change their lives and careers from the better. And I think the reason for this is the entire culture of the law firm and the people in it are always promoting and saying how great this is. partners do it with associates. associates do with other associates partners often do with partner and, and most people just pick up the, their surroundings and, they become.

[00:18:28]like the people around them and they believe, the things that people around them are telling them. And, if people with great qualifications are saying how great going into houses, then other people start to believe it and the reasons for it. But the thing is, the people that are really talking about it that have a lot of power inside of law firms and, are really talking about it.

[00:18:48] Not because they actually want to go in house, but because they figured something out, If they go in house many times, that means that there's going to be a lot less competition for them, meaning, there's going to be less [00:19:00] competition for work. there's going to be less competition for clients. and many times other partners, will encourage other partners to go in house because they may want those partners clients, or they may want a bigger share of the profits that person is taking.

[00:19:15] And so no one inside of a law firm is really ever going to tell you, that going in house is a bad idea because the smart people inside of law firms that are playing that game, realize, that it's a very good decision for them, to, for you to go in house. they want to get rid of competition and everybody's always trying to push out.

[00:19:31] Competition. Associates are trying to push out. Competition partners are trying to push out other competition and they also like you when you go in house, because if you're the friend, you may give them work. And, smart attorneys, really that know what they're doing, encourage other attorneys to go in house, and if anyone is telling you, that's a good idea, you really should smile and get the hell away from these people, because I'm telling you, this whole idea is very dangerous and it's dangerous.

[00:19:57]and I'm telling you why it's dangerous because it, where I sat. [00:20:00] And I talked to people all day. I've been doing it for 20 years. I've watched the decisions people make, I'm actually more interested in this profession, from a kind of a psychological sociological standpoint than I am from a, like a, someone that's just trying to, earn money and that sort of thing.

[00:20:16] I'm actually very interested in the decisions people make and why they make them and how to make good decisions. And I believe that is really, Something that, just being on this webinar and, after the crash and stuff just now is very smart to you cause you're learning a lot and you may wonder, why I have such negative opinions about going in house.

[00:20:36] And, the thing is, I make my living place in attorneys and I'm not saying that going in house is a bad idea. Excuse me. For every attorney. I don't think it is. But I believe that for most attorneys it's a horrible idea and it I've seen it destroy countless careers or prevent people from going as far as they can on their career.

[00:20:55] That should be going far. And, in many people going house [00:21:00] because of a lot of misinformation, I remember, there's just a lot of misinformation. I remember when I was in a, I was in a public school, when I was younger. And the, th there was no information about how you should go to law school, or you should go be a doctor.

[00:21:14]to the dream career of a lot of people, I grew up with lists things like, honestly, like you could be a postman and you'd make this much money. And back then it sounded like a lot of money, or you could be a fireman, or you could, you could work in a factory. And, if everyone, when I was.

[00:21:28]I remember when I was 17 or 18 years old, back then there were people, that were my age, working in factories, making the equivalent of probably, 60, $70 an hour and today's money. you could really make a lot of money working at an auto factory. So if you had a right union job, so it's just, these are the things that, people from different environments, and back then it was, I think, $35 an hour, which still seemed incredible.

[00:21:51]so I was probably twice now, but, the thing is. there's always just information out there and different environments will give you different types of [00:22:00] misinformation and you need to be careful. And, just to understand, what it's like working for an attorney, for clients that pay you for your services.

[00:22:08] This has been around for thousands of years. there were, in Pompei, I was just watching a show the other day and they were showing the house of, an attorney that, you know, when Pompei exploded and, 48 D or whatever. nearly, attorneys have been around for thousands of years and, there was a house they just found recently and, under the ashes.

[00:22:25] And but the thing is, attorneys, representing people in getting clients has been around for thousands of years, it was around a hundred, it was around four then, it was around before the time of Christ and yeah, it's just always been around. and, And it's just something that, is there.

[00:22:40] And, and the only thing that's really changed is, th that there's more of a, kind of a commodity in the legal profession. there's large industrial law firms. So there's hundreds of law schools. There's a pretty low barrier of entry to being an attorney. in certain States like California and so forth, you don't even need to go to law school to be an attorney.

[00:22:57]No associates and partners have become kind of commodities. [00:23:00] and they've been, they're, advanced and, valued essentially by, the hours they work and how much business they have. there's other factors as well, too. they're hired by, based on other factors, but that's the majority of it.

[00:23:12] And. What happened. And it's important for everyone to understand is after world war II, the rest of the world was rebuilding itself. And, and so what law firms and, and, in the United States began to do is say, began to mirror the way corporations operated and they grew, they became, very large verse before they had been, fairly small.

[00:23:32] And, as this happened, law firms, if you can, to mirror companies and, and depersonalize their attorneys just as companies began to grow and have different departments and different titles and so forth, And then law firms, began to, do the same thing. And, the crevasse actually was the first law firm to come up with this idea.

[00:23:51] But what they would do is they would hire, the highest performing attorneys out of the best law schools. They would pay them the most money. and then, after a certain number of years, [00:24:00] they couldn't make everybody partner because they didn't want to share in the profits. They would send them to work inside of their clients.

[00:24:05] And then they would have people inside the. the corporations that would obviously be their allies and, that they would have a good working relationship with and they could always send work to, and. prior to this time, it was actually very rare for an attorney to join, to ever work more than one law firm, for an associate ever to leave, much less to go to work for it, inside of a corporation.

[00:24:25]so that's kinda how the whole process has developed it started off with a firm called crevasse Swaine and Moore. And, and then it spread to other firms. crevasse is still the leader. If, you always noticed when, they raise their salaries, everybody else follows.

[00:24:39] And so they're the ones that started this whole, idea of paying associates, a lot of money. and then sending them to work with our clients and that's just something, they all did. And, and then, and so they had to create the idea that working in house was good and, and other law firms picked up on that and model their way of doing business.

[00:24:57] And that's just what's happened because [00:25:00] hardly anybody, ends up making partner inside of, the largest law firms and they want them to go in-house and be their allies. And as associates and others began to participated in this assembly line, which means you're hired, your work very hard, you're trained, and then you're expected to go and house and help the law firm continually, get business and so forth.

[00:25:20]it just became something that was perpetuated by law firm management, and others, for the lowest performers and lowest performer, by the way, it doesn't necessarily mean. That you're bad. It just means that you're not someone that they believe it's going to bring in a ton of business, or the law firm may just not have ruminants partnership or want more people.

[00:25:37]and so they send those people, into, the companies and, regardless of how this has couched, it's always been a way for law firms to get rid of people without business people. They don't want to make them allies and, and then, and leave people. that they want to get future business and no one ever tells attorneys as for that, the law firm works this way, but that's really, how the whole thing has been [00:26:00] perpetuated and, it's to make room for better people, who have what it takes and understand, the whole idea of what it means to get business and so forth.

[00:26:08]rather than, hiring attorneys that are likely to. bringing in business, they can hire the smartest attorneys and they can work them very hard and, and then they can expect them to leave and be their allies.  the idea, that many people ask themselves when I bring this up is they may say, what does it take to be, What does it mean to be a really good attorney or what does it take?

[00:26:26] And, and th the answer to being what it means to be a good attorney is very simple. And it's really very it's. It's been, it's it. What does it take to be a good attorney? This has been a long, it's been around as long as there have been attorneys. It's just. there's nothing has changed.

[00:26:40]if you think about it like a hundred years ago, say, you were practicing law in a small new England town of maybe 10,000 people, which I guess back then would not have been necessarily that small. the odds are very good, that you would have been a solo practitioner. There might've been a few other attorneys in your town that you were competing with to get work, but you would have been a solo practitioner.

[00:27:00] [00:27:00] And the most successful attorney in town would probably be the attorney, that engaged with the community. It was trusted by people. they would, they would be going to, local events. They would show up at city council meetings. They would, take interest in different people in the community.

[00:27:15]they would, they would be seen as someone that, really wants their clients to well. and, they would be seen as the ones that really, benefited their clients the most and were the most enthusiastic. And they would charge the best rates and be respective and just be thought of someone that cared about their clients.

[00:27:32]and that's about it. they might write articles in the local newspaper. they might give talks and do other things, but. That's really it and, show up at local funerals, probably they would, send Christmas cards, go to weddings and, generally that's about it. these are the kinds of things.

[00:27:48] It would just be people that are out about the community and seeing, and being seen, by the way, it's the most important thing an attorney can do to get business. being locked up inside of a law firm of, And then, giant skyscraper does not [00:28:00] help that. in contrast, if you think about what the least successful attorney would have been doing, and a hundred years ago, he would be in his office, he would expect work to come to him.

[00:28:09]he probably wouldn't care about his clients as much. He would think negatively of a lot of them. He wouldn't do necessarily thorough work. you might be more concerned about themselves than his clients and how much he can charge people in the short term and playing games. he'd been more interested in himself, his free time, and then trying to go to meet new people.

[00:28:27]he might be smart, but none of that would matter. he would not be trusted. he just wouldn't, you couldn't trust him and he wouldn't be out there and be seen and he might be Carol. So little about practicing law that he might be happy to do something else. or if you coach, so think about the contrast between, what a successful attorney was then and what it is now, it's the same thing.

[00:28:48] So if you want to be a successful attorney, all you need to do is you need to be out there and be seen and get clients. And you need to be seen as an advocate for your clients and not for yourself and not play games and not, and this is it. And that's what law [00:29:00] firms. essentially what, and no, one's going to tell you this, by the way.

[00:29:03]law firms don't care. If you want to just be a workhorse or you want to be someone that's out there in the community and being seen, but not going to tell you this, those are things that attorneys need to pick up themselves and I'm teaching you that right now. And if you do this, you're going to be very successful in a law firm.

[00:29:17] And you can do this at any point in your career. You don't need to just start out doing it, but that's really what it's about. Being a successful attorney has always been the same way. It was probably the exact same way in Pompei, where they just found a house of a very successful attorney.

[00:29:31] It's the same. It's being seen, being trusted as an advocate for your clients. Not for yourself, bonding with a variety of people and just not doing that makes you want success. That's all you need to do. And that's what law firms. are looking for, and these, this is the rule. if you don't want to do these things, you don't want to be seen, you don't necessarily want to be an advocate and you don't want to bond with a variety of people then maybe going in house is a good option for you.

[00:29:56] But, if you do these things, when you really concentrate on them, you're going to do [00:30:00] well. But as law firms have become, more larger and more successful. You just, there's just different things that, you need to do and people that, we're good at practicing law.

[00:30:11] Like a long time ago, we're out there getting work, And, and people did not use the billable hour. I, I've talked to attorneys that were, even old. when some of these, it's fun. to talk to people that are in their nineties that were.  he's at Davis Polk and it was like, very old firm, a very young firm and they would get together and say, this looks like about, the stack of papers looks about this much and, they wouldn't even, they didn't have billable hours.

[00:30:34] And different firms that have evolved have developed different ways, but. but your ability to connect with people used to be, really what would drive, their success and, your ability to show people that you do good work and to be out there in the community.

[00:30:49] And you no longer go to, if you worked in a small law firm, it would likely have been with one other attorney and. and the two of you would have encouraged each other to have those kinds of behaviors to be successful. [00:31:00] And the thing is that the problem with law firms and the reason people think about, going in house so much now, is that the behaviors and make a really good attorney today, are really.

[00:31:09] Things that are, not emphasized, the billable hours emphasized instead of getting out there. So just directing money into the firms, coffers, their bill valued more than their ability to do that. And for the ability to bond their clients, get new clients and be seen, no, one's going to tell you, that you have to be out there being seen.

[00:31:25] I remember when I was, it was the second or third year attorney and I decided, I wanted to get involved in the community and so forth. So I started teaching. law school class. And, they didn't even know if the firm I was at. They didn't even know how to deal with that. I, and I worked for a big New York from them and they'd never had, a junior associate teaching a law school class.

[00:31:43] I thought it was good for my background. I'm like, pedigree, for clients and so forth. And it did help me, bring in clients, but people just didn't do that kind of thing. And, everything is, been deemphasized, things. That are important to the firm, making money and not necessarily to your career.

[00:31:58]the presumption is in law [00:32:00] firms that the cream will rise to the top of the people that, will generate and figure out how to generate business on their own. And that the law firm doesn't need to be involved in it. And it sounds depressing really, but that's how it is. young attorneys, even senior attorneys without business are just billing machines.

[00:32:15]And that's their role and, they can be replaced and, in the law firm needs people that can build as many hours as possible. unless you understand, that dynamic, you're, you're in trouble and what happens is work dries up and work always dries up inside of law firms.

[00:32:31] And, and it's always going to dry up by the way, as you get more senior, because when you get. It's closer to partner. And as you go partner, partners make more money work. if,  they may get, 40 whatever they bill, and if they're giving the work to some 10% as the rates get high, But they're to do.

[00:32:53] And not only that partners, clients prefer to have partners do the work. If, the [00:33:00] ER is if, Instead of a senior associate and so forth. as your rates get more senior, you're typically going to be kicked to the fur, the herb and, and younger attorneys going to need to come in and we're to do the work.

[00:33:11] And the process is just going to repeat itself. they want hungry people that are, will take direction that will work hard and that sort of thing. And and then, the hope is that you'll go in house and this is, this process just repeats itself over and over again.

[00:33:23] And it's just nothing. It's just what it is. And this is why going in house is considered such a great thing because you can look forward to it while you're sitting there. Not actually. improving yourself by getting more business and becoming what you need to be in order to be successful in a law firm.

[00:33:39] And you need to be able to see, the forest and the trees. The only thing that matters for an attorney is having a book of business and getting the book of business and getting out there. And the longer you put this off, and the longer, the more screwed up your careers going to be, it's like.

[00:33:54]every day that you sit in a law firm and you're billing hours and not getting clients and so [00:34:00] forth is crazy because it's like not studying for the exam. the exam is going to come up eventually. It's like those nightmares where you get up and you haven't, prepare for an exam.

[00:34:10] If you haven't prepared for the exam, you're going to be in a lot of trouble. this is preparing for the exam and, your responsibility to yourself has never changed at the legal profession. This is the one constant that you need to be aware of. The responsibility to your careers to get out there, meet people, make a name for yourself and get business.

[00:34:30] And once you have a stable book of clients, your law firm cannot. no one can do anything to you. those clients are yours and you can take them with you to other firms. you can set the compensation you want to be paid. You can set up your own firm. You have all sorts of options, but you need to get clients first.

[00:34:47]And, honestly, if you have a large book of business as an attorney, you can generally work pretty much wherever you want and practically any firm. if your clients are big enough and you have a large enough billing rate, you can work just about any law firm [00:35:00] in the country you want to, honestly, I've seen people, you can go to a fourth year law school, and not do well there and build yourself up a large book of business and you can work at, one of the top 10 largest law firms in the world it's possible.

[00:35:11]I see it all the time. I've seen people with multi-million dollar salaries that, started off working at two or three person law firms, and then just keep understood the stuff I'm teaching you right now. It's that important? It's really, important stuff. There's really no limit.

[00:35:25]to what you can do. I know one guy and I hate to bring it up. Cause I hope he's not even you're watching, but he went to an unaccredited California law school, meaning that the law firm is so bad that, the law school not even allowed, the only place you could practice after going to this law school is in California.

[00:35:41]he's dyslexic. So he couldn't even read, he couldn't, take the LSATs, because he had to read backwards or whatever, which there's a lot of people with this disability, but. the thing is he just, he was motivated, he kept getting LLM. after five or six LM, she, he got it from a, a good firm and he understood this one rule that [00:36:00] I'm telling you.

[00:36:00] So even though I don't think the guy's that smart,  he's got all these learning disabilities, which, make it more difficult for them. She's got this huge book of business. he's, he doesn't, I don't think the guy knows what he's talking about half the time. I've listened to him.

[00:36:14]but he's, he's done very well. he does a phenomenal job meeting people. he's. An adjunct professor at a top 15 law school, he gets out there and meets people and it's got a multi-million dollar book of business, credible, and the fact is, even though I think a lot of what he, when I've listened to the guy, give me legal advice.

[00:36:33] And it's not even a practicing attorney. See through the problems with a lot of stuff he says, and, wow. but it doesn't matter. it's no matter, it doesn't matter. he's very successful. Cause he's got business. This is what you need to understand. This is how it works.

[00:36:46] This is the game. all you need to do to be successful. Practicing law is get business and, attorneys going out and droves, and, but all they need to do is get clients. the attorneys that, are. excited about other attorneys going [00:37:00] in house are the ones that understand this game and, the game has no connection.

[00:37:04]and once you go in house, you've really stopped playing the game.  here's some of the things I brought up earlier and I'm going to go through them real briefly with you, and a little more detailed just because I want to make sure, you understand them and they are very important, when you go in house, your skills typically are gonna, deteriorate and, th and the most important work that is done by, law firms and not you, your skills will rapidly decline.

[00:37:28]attorneys inside of law firms tend to be specialists, meaning, you do one type of work and law firms will give you that type of work to do over and over again. And law firms will, have people doing that type of work because it looks good to clients. And not only that, when you're working inside of a law firm, there's all sorts of checks and balances.

[00:37:45] So there's people reviewing your work. There's other attorneys offering you input. the law firms will. the partners that you're working for and others will, tend to be on the cutting edge of things. They will talk to other people, their skills are going to be chucked all the time.

[00:37:59][00:38:00] new legal developments are quickly made aware to people and so forth, and these are all incorporated in your skillset. and there's just a lot of emphasis on it, detail, not missing issues and. This is often way beyond, that's the sort of stuff that in-house attorneys receive. there's so much pressure to produce the best work for paying clients in a competitive environment, and clients can take the work elsewhere.

[00:38:23] So this increases, the quality of work that law firm attorneys do. they don't want to make mistakes. They want to make, they want to present stuff to their clients that looks perfect. And there's all these checks and balances that go into things. And. th the thing that in-house attorneys quickly learn is that, that, instead of having to produce work at that level, that it's much easier to give this work to outside counsel.

[00:38:47]most in-house legal environments that the attorneys inside of the in-house legal environment become specialist. And. deflecting challenging and time-consuming work to people to do elsewhere. attorneys at veteran house would brag about [00:39:00] how they go home early and so forth. and they become experts in.

[00:39:03]covering their ass in terms of, handing the workout to other people. this is really what happens to most of them and, and to make sure that other people do the work well, and they tend to hire, the most expensive law firms and they tend to hire their friends and they hand, and, and they, and that's just how it works.

[00:39:18] And, and their skills deteriorate because other people are catching things. And, so as your skills continually deteriorate, and they're also a lot of their days are spent being flattered by in-house by outside counsel, by, and so forth. And, and as time goes by, they tend to get, even lazier and, clueless.

[00:39:37] Now I'm not saying this happens to all in-house attorneys because it does it, but I'm talking about a pattern here that, happens most of the time. And, and when I say most of the time it could be. it just really depends, the larger and the more competitive corporation and so forth, that may happen less than, smaller markets, but, it's smaller corporations, but it does happen.

[00:39:56] And, and the thing that I've noticed anytime I was, [00:40:00] working, when I worked with, attorneys, I've always noticed that they, a lot of times will joke about outside counsel, about how little they know and their lack of knowledge and so forth. and their ability to make issues seem more complex to in-house counsel to charge more money.

[00:40:16] And in a lot of cases, the in-house counsel sorta becomes fool. to the law firm lawyers, meaning the law firm lawyers are making fun of them behind their back. And I saw that repeatedly when I was practicing law and I, it's unfortunate. And what's funny is anytime an in-house counsel sits down to do some semi-serious legal work and, it could be writing a memo, marking up a brief or putting, whatever, just doing anything.

[00:40:38] Law firm lawyers will always, come out and say what a great job the in-house counsel has done. It. Must've been really hard work like it's brilliant. Thank you for catching this. And they'll always try to run it up the chain of command to make it look like this in-house counsel is doing an awesome job, and really got the company's back and so forth.

[00:40:56] You can just, I see this all the time. I've seen it. and our company with any [00:41:00] in-house counsel that we've ever had. it's very funny. but it's what happens. And then what happens is the in-house counsel. reciprocate by sending a law for more and more work. And, and this creates even more inefficiencies and waste for the company, that the, the attorney presumably has been tired, to, protect and save money for.

[00:41:18] So it's just important to understand that, when you go in house, your skills become will deteriorate. And that's one of the reasons too, that law firms, typically won't hire in-house counsel and back inside of law firms. And not only that, that, Companies often want to hire people that have the fresh legal skills out of law firms.

[00:41:36]The other thing that happens is when an attorney goes in-house, they often become a cost center. And what that means is they're often the first people to be let go. when the company experienced his problems and all companies, experienced problems, almost all of them. sometimes, the, attorneys may be hired to come in and assist with a project that lasts, several months to a few years, a company may be in brawl oil than, [00:42:00] very difficult litigation.

[00:42:01]and bring on, some litigators, from a large law firm to save them a lot of money. they may be, firing several companies in a space and, and want to get people with that expertise. from a major firm to save millions of dollars, we're just an acquisition attorneys, may need to hire a patent attorney.

[00:42:19] So a lot of times, companies will bring in attorneys on a short-term basis. And, I speak with candidates, all over the world. seeking jobs. And when I speak with in-house attorneys, very often, these attorneys who've lost their job, because the work, has dried up, or the company's just experiencing financial problems and.

[00:42:37] In every decent sized city in the United States. whether it's Chicago or Houston or, Los Angeles or, whatever, there's thousands of attorneys, for jobs and from in-house companies that, basically where the work is, dried up or the company's experiencing financial problems.

[00:42:53]keep in mind, In the law firm business model that I've talked to you about, it's been around for thousands of years, companies, [00:43:00] by the way, very few law firms go out of business. they certainly merge and things happen, when you're selling labor for essentially, Much more than a cost share, provide which a law firm is.

[00:43:10]it's just someone sitting at a desk and generating hundreds of dollars an hour, or more, your costs aren't that bad, companies go out of business all the time. the business model of a law firm is very simple. You bill hours and you collect money, companies, have to change business models, they have to do all sorts of things.

[00:43:26] So companies are going out of business all the time. And they're laying people off all the time. And when that happens with a, a law firm, with, with a company, the attorneys will lose her job. Companies will always try to save money by getting rid of people who cost them money and fail to generate money.

[00:43:42]inside of a law firm, if an attorney is billing hours and generating enough to cover their salary, they're almost always safe and will lose their job unless, the rules of. Seniority and so forth are violated, but, especially if an attorney has business of their own, they're almost never going to lose their job or they can always take their clients elsewhere. [00:44:00]

[00:44:00]one of the things that, that I see, that's pretty funny, is, and I see this all the time is, in-house attorneys lose their jobs or they quit working in house and they believe that. You know that the company, that they, are the, the law firm will send work their way.

[00:44:14]the company will send work to them, when they leave and they'll make even more money working on their own. And, th the thing is. that almost rarely happens. the company, typically almost never, we'll send them, work, because they're regarding by their own company as many times as second or third stringers.

[00:44:32] And, and the law firm always thinks to them most of the time it's less competent than outside counsel. if an attorney's in-house in the law firms pain at one thing, Then, that, then the company's paying them one thing and very rarely is the attorney going to get work. If they go to work in a, on their own and another law firm, it's just not going to happen.

[00:44:52]and the other thing is, that most law firms will not hire in house attorneys. they just, they're seen as, Gazelles of the lion [00:45:00] was able to graft from the hurt and, th they're just not, it's just doesn't work that way. And the same thing, inside of the company.

[00:45:06]it's just, it's not, something that they want. when a law firm, when a company hires an outside attorney, also, they like the idea that they have a big name law firm behind them. And, they take pride in that. And none of this has to be respectful, disrespectful in house attorney.

[00:45:22] It's just how it works. most companies do not send work in-house counsel when they leave. It's just, they're just not regarded as highly as attorneys from law firms. And there are some exceptions to that. patent laws, one of them sometimes in some kind of transactional disciplines. And so I'm not saying that happens all the time.

[00:45:37] It just happens a lot. the important thing to also understand is. once an attorney leaves a law firm, they're almost always never going to get another job in a law firm. and, and not only that, but you're almost always going to lose your job inside of a company. So many attorneys that go in house believe that, they're going to be able to go back to a law firm because.

[00:45:59] Maybe because they [00:46:00] think they went to a good school. They worked in a good law firm. but returning from in-house to a law firm is almost always impossible. And you have to understand why, the first thing is you've already approved that you're probably going to leave again, that you may don't necessarily buy into the law firm model, which means getting business and doing good work and getting out there.

[00:46:18] And, you've already left the game and showing your interest in that plane at, so you'll probably leave again. you've already had your going away party. and not only that, but there's, there's a lot of other, issues too. you just, Anyway, your, your skills who've predicted operate in a more.

[00:46:33]in house attorneys do return to law firms, most often, as I said earlier, it's patent attorneys. sometimes it's tax attorneys, that have special types of skills that are rare, like maybe executive compensation, so forth. but corporate attorneys sometimes can go back, but even in the best economies, by the way, Where corporate is completely just, in demand and so forth.

[00:46:53] It's very rare. it's just very difficult, because they know you're going to leave again. And why would they bring you back? litigators [00:47:00] almost never can. Arosa attorneys sometimes can, but it's just very difficult. law firms typically will not welcome an in-house attorney back and, they've just, you've just shown.

[00:47:09] You're not part of it and you're going to leave. They can't trust you to stay, and, you can come back. it does happen, but generally you're going to need to have something very special. you have to have a really good initial law firm that you've come from, really good grades, very good revenue recommendations from your previous firm.

[00:47:27]Maybe extenuating circumstances for reasons of going in house, like maybe you moved to a part of the country where the most sophisticated work in the small town you ran was with an in house company. and typically not much experience. these are really the reasons why, one of the biggest things that any law firm.

[00:47:43]hiring someone is that they want to make sure that you're going to Tropic that you can stay into the job long-term and you're not going to leave. And and they know that you're not going to commit if you've already left and it's just, it's difficult. the thing is, that, it just rarely works out.

[00:47:58] And, and the attorneys, [00:48:00] I dunno pride is the right word, but it's extremely difficult. I've seen, many in house councils that, have. Been at major corporations and they've sent, often tens of millions of dollars in work to various law firms and had very good relationships.

[00:48:15] And with those firms and, their emails and texts and so forth to be returned instantly. And they, they were being entertained and so forth by the law firm all the time. And, and birthdays were remembered and so forth. And then, and then when the attorneys, leave.

[00:48:30]those same law firms go just completely cold. and, and the law firms have no interest in hiring them or bringing them back at all ever. very rarely. No, I've seen some exceptions to that. I saw, one exception at a very good firm. but then even that attorney came and was there for a year and then they asked him to find another job.

[00:48:48] So it's just, the law firms, look upon in-house attorneys in kind of a negative way. And, they, and when they leave and they try to get jobs over there, they just don't help them for the most part. [00:49:00] And, it's sad. And, I don't like it. And, but this is really what happens a lot of time.

[00:49:06] And. so the idea is that law firms, I don't think, respect in house counsel as law firm attorneys, because they don't really consider them part of the fraternity. they typically, have a whole game. They play where, they make them, they butter them up. They make them the work seem better than it.

[00:49:23] Can. They. they think they know better than them and so forth. And, and I hate to make this point because I don't like making it cause I certainly like helping law in-house attorneys. but I just want you to understand this dynamic and how you're going to be seen. If that's something you want to do, if you even care, it doesn't necessarily matter.

[00:49:41]but this is really what happens a lot of the time. So the other thing that's important to understand too, is that most companies really want to hire young attorneys. most often from law firms that have fresher skills than an in-house attorney come from another company. recently I was, representing, a very good attorney, that had about eight years of experience, credible [00:50:00] qualifications, and, and he was interested in a role where he didn't have to compete to be a part in a law firm and his attorney, his qualifications were awesome.

[00:50:07]he had, graduated, I don't know if it was first in his classroom, Stanford law school, but it was something close to that. he had an undergraduate degree at MIT, and. I couldn't believe how awesome this guy was. and, but th the law firm, sworn interest in him, they just said, it's not gonna work if he's not motivated to be a partner.

[00:50:24]we want people that are willing and they want to work with that. And it messes up our culture. If there are people that don't care about this, I thought that was pretty interesting. that they all sent that no one wanted this person because they didn't care about his qualifications.

[00:50:37] He, they just knew he wasn't motivated to be kind of part of they're there to do things the way he, so it didn't matter. These law schools, it didn't matter the firms he was out. So the things that the. companies think is companies think if an attorney's coming directly from a law firm, they feel like they're getting a great deal.

[00:50:56]so if they feel like, they're paying the person $450 an [00:51:00] hour at a big firm, and they may only need to pay them this much, such and such, at a law firm, they feel like they make it begin in a better deal. And many smart companies know that, the, the ones that are smart and know that, if an attorney's coming to record from a law firm, they haven't learned this game of, pushing work away, externally and they'll actually do the work and it can be managed and so forth, and they won't be covering their ass.

[00:51:22] And they're actually easier to manage when they're coming from a law firm many times than if they're coming from another company. smart companies want efficiency and they want people that are going to do the work, the least amount of money. And, and the idea is that if an attorney is coming from a law firm and the more could it be hu