[00:00:00] Today's webinar is about what to ask yourself if you're not getting job offers or the job offers you want, and depending on the economy or things that you're maybe doing in your search, you may not be getting the traction that you want. And, I certainly talk about it a lot of ways to get traction, but this particular talk today will be about how to get traction.
[00:00:23]You know what to do if you're not getting offers that you want, whether or not you should take those offers what to do if you're unemployed and, really some kind of important stuff that, you really should be thinking about. When you're not, getting the traction you want, because the truth is, no one is a hundred percent satisfied in most cases where their job search, when the economy is really good things can.
[00:00:45]Go well, but when it's not as good people don't do as well. And I can tell you from experience that, you know, in our placement firm and we have lots of people interviewing every day making placements everyday, multiple placements, many days. And there's things that we do with [00:01:00] our candidates and there's things that you can do on your own that you don't need someone like my help that will actually get you really awesome results.
[00:01:09]It's, it is very common for law students attorneys and others to actually get job offers, if they're unhappy about, if you're looking for a job right now, that you're going to get a job at some point but you may not actually get the job you want.
[00:01:23] And in some people they. I think they actually give up on the practice of law when they're not getting the job offers they want, which is very upsetting to me. Or they take jobs that aren't even related to the practice of law. Was, I had someone that applied, that to work as a recruiter here or illegal placement person last, we consign interviewed them today and the person had gone to a, an Ivy league law school and was clerking for a.
[00:01:49]A federal circuit judge and had worked in a top law firm for, one or two years in a major city before that. And hadn't been able to find a job, which is just absolutely insane. [00:02:00] And so that person decided they wanted to go into legal and I, very quickly within, five or 10 minutes called them.
[00:02:07] That was absolutely ridiculous. You shouldn't be doing something. That you don't want to do. And especially with your background and then you should be able to find a job and that Porter person to particular problem which I'll discuss today in terms of mistakes that people make was they were only looking at one market and and then they were limiting themselves on types of firms that they were applying to.
[00:02:27] And and looking at the small to midsize market on top of it. People should not give up in the practice of law. And especially when they're not finding the jobs that they want. I see people from, the worst law schools even unaccredited law schools get good jobs and and you can do it too.
[00:02:45] It's not really that difficult. If you follow certain rules, I'm going to tell you today what you need to do. It's just it's something. But I hate to seem when you, cause when you take a job, you don't want you're not going to reach your full potential and you're going to be unhappy [00:03:00] of the employer that hired you is going to be miserable.
[00:03:02] They're going to put a lot of time into training you. You're going to disrupt the people that work there because you're going to be unhappy. And it's just going to create a lot of tension. And in many cases, if I were to hire, for example, that clerk, I will be making a huge mistake, but. But employers make that mistake all the time.
[00:03:20]You go into places and you may convince someone that, you really want the job and and they're going to hire you. And you're going to be looking for a job and out the door and never really committing. And unfortunately, that's the path that a lot of people take with their careers.
[00:03:34] Say they take positions, they don't want, they don't commit to the job. They don't do the best they can. They're unhappy, the employer's unhappy with them. Then they think they don't like the practice of law. So it's very important that these skills that I'm talking about are really fully realized. And I've see so many mistakes that people make a significant percentage of people are unhappy in the practice law because they're doing their job searches incorrectly.
[00:03:59] They're [00:04:00] not finding out the opportunities are capable of it. And more, so the first question you need to ask yourself if you're. Not getting the jobs you want and if you're not finding the opportunities you want is whether or not you've done everything you possibly can to get job offers.
[00:04:16] And and that's a very important question because a lot of people really under, severely under market themselves and their job search and everybody's capable of. Getting any job and regardless of the economy, it doesn't matter what the economy is.
[00:04:33] I have, everyone says corporate stabbed right now, but yet I have corporate people interviewing, markets and it's just that the market is, going to be determined by, how well you, the jobs you get by how much you're marketing yourself or how much you're allowing critter to market you and.
[00:04:51] Lot of times if you're, getting jobs you don't want, a lot of people actually, are angry, when they get a job that pays them less than they feel, that they should be [00:05:00] making or they sometimes, they, they're upset, when they don't get the jobs, so they want to get in a lot of traction.
[00:05:05] So you definitely need to learn some skills about what you need to do. And and their mindset to. To get the positions you want, because it makes absolutely no sense if you're not getting job offers. And it also makes no sense if you're not getting the types of jobs that you want.
[00:05:22] So the first thing is you need to be, I'm applying to enough places and enough markets the country is huge and there's. Lots and lots of markets you can be looking for jobs and if you're, in a major city, there's tons and tons of places.
[00:05:38] And it's really in my opinion, a crisis, you need to be really marketing yourself and your search by looking at lots of markets and learning some job search skills. I'm gonna talk to you about today. Many people undermarket themselves and they have these, careers that are, unsatisfying for them.
[00:05:54]They take jobs when they're unhappy with, or they stay in jobs that they're unhappy with. They don't find [00:06:00] positions at all in many times or, and they believe that's all they can get because they had a bad experience and they have to bolt on to that job and they can't lose it.
[00:06:07]No matter what. And and it's a mindset I remember. It's a funny story, but it's not really that funny. I grew up in a background that you know, when my mother that was I don't know if I would call it working class, but it wasn't she came out of a, an environment where, it was very important for people to hold on to their job, not lose her job.
[00:06:26] I had this awful, terrible job as a garbage man working for the city that it was a different time and place, but, I literally, was working with a guy that was carrying a weapon. One, one time, threatened to, slashed my throat.
[00:06:40] And, I told my supervisor about it and they didn't care. There was this the kind of job I had and I, I was talking to my mom about it and she was, stare her like you can't. Make trouble, you don't want to lose your job. And so a lot of people come from the, the vendors, the idea that if you lose your job or something, if you don't have a job, it's, it's a bad thing.
[00:06:57] So they stay with his jobs, they shouldn't stay with it. [00:07:00] And most people, when they're looking for a job, they think that they've done everything right. Encounter attorneys all day that they think that they know exactly what to do. I send them, lots of, places that are, could be good fits for them.
[00:07:13] And they don't, think they think it's too many or they don't know that there's a right fit. Are they and then consequently, they ended up stuck in bad situations. Or with no job at all. Really the most important thing, you need to be applying to lots of places and if you're an attorney, a practicing attorney or a law student, a lot of people are very controlling.
[00:07:36]They want to research every single employer that they talk to. They want to. Read online reviews and get all sorts of information. And the thing is most law firms they consist of practice groups and and you may be working one or two people in that practice group.
[00:07:53] And there's all sorts of, different groups of people inside of a law firm. So you can't really with a law firm or [00:08:00] any employer, you can't really get a sense of what it's like to work there. Unless you go on new interview and you figure out who you're going to be working with and you get a real good sense of it.
[00:08:09] And you really shouldn't be under marketing yourself. Now, I'm not saying that, that a bankruptcy attorney, for example, that's doing corporate bankruptcy issue go out and apply to consumer bankruptcy, like high volume consumer bankruptcy firms or that, a Commercial litigator in a major law firm should suddenly apply to do personal injury.
[00:08:29] But what I am saying is talking to people that are in the practice, this area that you want to do, and the markets you want to do that are firms that you can potentially seen yourself work at are important because they will lead to opportunities. Every time you go out and interview.
[00:08:43] Every time you talk to a new place every time you decide to apply to the new place here, you're really giving yourself a new opportunity to find a place that you normally may not. And it's huge. It changes lives and it changes careers and it's only one application. So you [00:09:00] need to, you don't want to be so controlling about the number of places that you're applying.
[00:09:05] See attorneys that I work with them all the time that, in some cases they'd been looking for a job for months, in some cases, even years using a legal recruiter and they'd lead a recruiter may only work with a couple, when I say a couple of probably, 20, 30, maybe a few more large law firms, and we'll only send them to a few big firms that have openings.
[00:09:24] And they're only aware of opportunities to large law firms. And if you're an attorney at a large law firm and your recruiters only send you other larger spot firms who you're half of the large law firm, you're really only going to get exposed. To places that are just like where you're at and because you're exposed to places that are just like, you're where you're at, that's going to limit you.
[00:09:42] And it's going to you're going to go into a situation where you're unhappy again. It may make sense for you to look at different types of places or even other large law firms, that don't have openings sometimes can be a good fed and maybe there's good people there.
[00:09:56]You could be working with. So when I represent someone and this is [00:10:00] something you should be with yourself as well. I do everything I possibly can to make them look at more firms and markets and get exposed to as many jobs and as many opportunities as they possibly can because, you're not going to, you have to, really reach out and find as many places as you possibly can when you're looking for a job, because.
[00:10:21]Oh, and I will take questions. After this I noticed someone, I just was asking questions, but I will take questions after we're done with it. Excuse me. Okay. Every day, lots of our people that I work with, lots of, several get candidates or candidates get interviews for law firms that don't have openings and.
[00:10:39]The majority of placements that I make are for firms that don't even have openings. And these are firms, large markets, small markets. There are small firms, large berms, and in many legal markets. So you can't like take. The gospel of what you're seeing in the market, meaning that affirm must have an opening to hire me.
[00:10:57] You have to realize that, that's just not [00:11:00] what happens, and many times, by looking at smaller markets, even if there are openings, you can find things to you. They wouldn't. So an example is like right now I'm working with a tax attorney in New York city. And the person's working for an accounting firm.
[00:11:13] And for the most part, attorneys coming from accounting firms are not marketable. To law firms now that's not always, but the issue is there's not a lot of tax openings. And when there are tax openings in law firms almost always hire people from other law firms because they have similar training.
[00:11:31]It's more competitive to get a job at a law firm. And so there's just a certain type of people they're looking for. So this attorney doesn't want to work accounting service. He wants to work in a law firm and most recruiters would not work with this person because he wants to work in a law firm.
[00:11:46] He doesn't have any law firm experience. And he's coming, and there's just no opens. So I, worked with this person and I was able to get them out to firms and in smaller markets. And he's interviewing with a firm in Nebraska. Now, Nebraska [00:12:00] may not be the place you want to live, but this person does not mind living in a place like Nebraska because this particular candidate.
[00:12:07] Is interested in working in a place where you can raise a family where there's a lower cost of living and so forth and and where he can see on the important being a tax attorney and actually, feel like he's offering, clients directed buyers, I'm working as part of a huge organization.
[00:12:23] So that's very important. The thing is that there's always going to be firms in most markets. That are going to be interested in someone with your background and, even if this attorney wanted to he could get on position probably in New York at a small law firm. If you looked at the market very closely, meaning, out of thousands of law firms in New York, there's probably at least a few that would be interested in him.
[00:12:45] And there's literally opportunities everywhere. Law firms do not always put out openings looking for people. But they will hire people if the right person appears whether or not that person's, a new graduate or if they're, like a practicing attorney, [00:13:00] because if a law firm has worked, they can make out a lot of money.
[00:13:04]They can make a lot of money by billing you out and billing the work you're doing. And it's like that with all employers that they can make money from you. They're going to hire you. And most law firms have gaps. They have. They have places like in the firm, it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be in your practice area, but you have to find them to have worked that they're not accepting.
[00:13:23] You're doing simply because they don't have the attorneys to do the work. I have in this company, there's lots of work that we have that is not getting done because we don't have the people to do it. And most law firms are like that. They they have lots of the work that's not getting done and because it's not getting done.
[00:13:42] They're losing money and, our job, like what we do is we look for places that people can apply to and and where they can make, money and that can help. So there's a lot of people raising their hand with questions and I'm gonna just stop real quickly.
[00:13:59] And [00:14:00] let me see if these, any of these are things I can help with and I will take these questions at the end. I don't think these don't look like they're related to what I'm talking about, but I will take questions at the end. So as our job is to find those types of places.
[00:14:12] And you need to really, get out there in market yourself to as many places as you possibly can, and You're going to get much better results, but when you look at a lot more opportunities, if you're looking for a position one option you can use a recruiter, you can research positions on your own.
[00:14:28]But you should also use, lots of different job boards lock, crossing. This is an example of a service that consolidates all the jobs that are out there in one place and can help you find everything that's in the market. They. Sites like indeed and so forth.
[00:14:42] Typically only put jobs on there that people are paying to advertise LA cross gets them from everywhere. So you need to look at as many opportunities in the market as you possibly can find. And that's one of the most important things, whether or not you use law across from you, that's up to you, but you need to use things like law, crossing other [00:15:00] jobs, search tools to find it.
[00:15:01] You need to do a lot of research. And you need to network to firms and companies that don't have openings. And when you don't get jobs you don't want that to affect you. And, I'm sorry to harp on this because, but I do think it's extremely important. You need to work as hard as you possibly can to get yourself out there and find opportunities.
[00:15:23] And most, a lot of people expect. Opportunities to come to them. They expect, they want employers to, they want it to be easy and it's not, you have to get out there and you have to do everything you can. And if you think about, every day you open your mailbox and there's tons of letters from people trying to sell you something every day.
[00:15:42]You turn on the television or you look at a website and there's people trying to sell you stuff. And so you need to be the same thing with yourself and you would need to realize that you're a product. And if you're not getting jobs, you're under marketing yourself, the solution, by the way to most businesses, if they have a good product and the products.
[00:15:56] Okay. And I'll talk to you a little bit about what your product is, but if [00:16:00] they have a good product, they just, they can always increase sales by advertising more. And so you can always increase, the people that are interested in you by advertising more. I also recommend, you do whatever you possibly can.
[00:16:13]To be more geographically flexible. If you're not getting an offer, he may just be applying to the law market. So an example would be like right now, this particular important part in time, like I said earlier, accounting people from accounting firms that are doing tax are not marketable in New York city.
[00:16:28] So someone that's geographically flexible can get jobs someone that's doing litigation in New York city is also not marketable. To most firms, so they need to be geographically flexible. Being geographically flexible is a huge advantage. It's something you need to do, and it's very important that you are geographically flexible because you need to stay employed.
[00:16:47] You need to save your career. There's nothing more important, really for an attorney. Than staying employed, which we'll talk about in a minute, the more markets you look at, the more success you're going to have, the more places you apply it to, [00:17:00] the more success you're going to have, you shouldn't just be applying to open ends.
[00:17:03] You shouldn't be applying to places that don't necessarily have to happen. And that's important. And that's really, if you're not getting the job offers, you want, The first thing you should look at is whether or not you're under marketing yourself. And that's something I really recommend that everybody, think about very closely because under marketing yourself is the number one reason that I see people, not getting jobs and, just this morning I was thinking, I, there's a woman I'm working with and and.
[00:17:32]Northern California that wants to move to Los Angeles. And I got her an interview with a firm. That recently just, I found that just born, it's a brand new firm and and they don't have any job openings, but I was able, I'm constantly marketing and reaching out to places and I was able to get her an interview and, and it's like that, every day, I just got someone, a place to trust in the state's attorney today.
[00:17:56] And there was that. Someone that was geographically flexible and ready [00:18:00] to move, different to different parts of the country. The idea is that, when you're geographically flexible, things happen and you need to be, and when you look at places, you don't necessarily have openings, you're likely to get more eh, market yourself.
[00:18:12]And I really hope you listen to what I'm saying, because a lot of people are stuck and especially. Now, like certain people, like in a lot of young people want to work in major markets. They want to work in Chicago and New York or Los Angeles group Atlanta or Houston. And, it's difficult to get into major markets.
[00:18:30]When the economy's not doing well, it's just because there's so many people competing for a limited number of jobs you need to. Look at other markets and you need to look at different size firms and and that's really, if you're not getting the job offers you want, that's what you need to do.
[00:18:44] And you need to really take what I'm saying because that solution or what I'm talking about right now always works. It works for everybody and it always has worked and it always will work. I've been doing this for over two decades and that's [00:19:00] how it's this realization that. You have to look at lots of markets and you have to look at small firms and large firms and different types of employers has really, in terms of the work that I do generated hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars, and helped, tens and tens of thousands of people.
[00:19:16] So you need to do this. And I hope you listen to what I'm saying with this particular thing. And the next thing. That, the recent people don't get the job offers. They want there's a lot of times they're trying to get the wrong type of legal job and that's, a huge problem. They're inflexible about the type of job they're looking for.
[00:19:36] And, you need to realize that your background is what it is. You've done things up until now. And the things that you've done. Aren't going to have an impact on, whether or not you're going to be employed in certain types of employers, not every employer.
[00:19:49]As a law student the only thing that most law firms have to compare you against is other law students. The better law school you went to, the better, the, the more marketable you're going to be and the better your [00:20:00] grades were, whatever law school you went to.
[00:20:02]That's going to control a lot of what happens to you. It's difficult to get in the best law firms. If you didn't go to the top law school, go to a top law school. But if you did very well in a lesser law school, you can't get into top law firms. It's very easy. It's easier to get at a top law firms.
[00:20:17] If you have. Certain things in your background that are very impressive. I've seen people that were Olympic athletes that didn't go to great law school, got all sorts of offers or football players and different things. So are, have very good social skills. It doesn't mean that a large law firm is close off to you forever because there's plenty of people that I know that start out at smaller firms and wind up then, major firms after getting business.
[00:20:40] And it's very common to. For people that are, they get focused in a certain practice area and they move out. So you can always, regardless of where you went to law school, regardless of how you did in law school, you can always work in a large law firm, if you do certain things. And, do that for you and your career.
[00:20:55] So it's, careers along thing. It's per attorneys, it's 40, 50 years. [00:21:00] So you can even longer in many cases. I've seen people. Do this into their nineties, but productively, you can be a attorney well into your, eighties. Definitely.
[00:21:10] Okay. But one of the things that a lot of people do is they will try to switch practice areas. If they're a corporate attorney and the work gets slow and corporate, or they decide they don't like it, they may want to work as a litigator. And that can be very challenging. I've seen people that are first in their class from really good law schools and try to switch practice areas.
[00:21:30]And and it's just the law firms not interested in it. They want. The law firm wants people that are doing one thing. It's not to say you can't switch practice areas, but it's going to be very difficult if you want to do something like that. And yeah.
[00:21:44] You just can't expect it. It's going to be difficult. It's also, difficult if you want to switch practice settings. It sometimes, if you're working for a public interest organization or the government, it becomes very difficult to get hired by law firms. Law firms, for example, they really do want to [00:22:00] hire people from other law firms because they want to see a commitment to that.
[00:22:03] That means that if you're in public interest, for example, you can vary, without too much difficulty. Get another position in a public interest organization that does the same thing. People that are in government jobs can get positions. It'd be the same thing in the government, but it becomes difficult to get hired by a lot of law firms.
[00:22:21]If you have a commitment to one practice setting or one practice area, if you're trying to switch practice settings or practice here, as it can be difficult now, and even attorneys that are, trying to go in house a lot of times, we'll spin their wheels for a long time, trying to get jobs in house.
[00:22:36] You can get a job in house if you're a, an attorney in a law firm, but it can be very difficult and it can take a long time. I've seen, attorneys in New York spend years or in the major cities. There's other limitations that people come up against. And I saw a question and I'll answer it about, being a senior attorney with no business, it can be difficult and challenging to get hired by another major law firm, [00:23:00] but it's also controlled by the market.
[00:23:02]In some cases, your practice area, and I said it would be in demand, law firms are typically interested in. Attorneys with business. So if you're a major attorney, if you're for attorney with no business you may need to go to a, a smaller law firm or you may need to go and house or find another role.
[00:23:19] It's just, at eight year you may be applying to the wrong jobs. If you're trying to work in a very competitive market where you're not from, it's going to be very difficult to get a position, there, I work with people all the time that from. Kansas and, Kentucky and things like that.
[00:23:33] And, they decided they want to move to Silicon Valley, New York Congo and those firms in those areas, unless you'd have a connection. There's plenty of people, in Chicago that are fighting for the same jobs and, it's a big risk for them bringing in someone, from out of town that may have gone.
[00:23:51]To a school like, in Kentucky or, in an area like that. It's difficult, there's just not a lot of incentive at a law firm in New York city. We'll have to [00:24:00] hire people from Kentucky. So you may, at the same why it's important to look at a lot of bottom markets, it can be very difficult to break into a major market and, just mailing out resumes from Kentucky to major markets is, unless you'd have some sort of practice area skill.
[00:24:14]That's, it's very rare. It's going to be tough, and it's just what it is. So if you are applying to the wrong sorts of job jobs you're going to have to apply it a lot more places than if you're not, that doesn't mean you can't get a job in, the wrong type of job, but it's going to be difficult.
[00:24:30] And, I see people, that, that won't have certain requirements. All the time that they draw these lines in the sand about things that they want and they expect. Some people will only take jobs to pay a certain amount of money. I've seen, people demand, very high salaries.
[00:24:47]I was talking to a woman not too long ago, that was making almost $500,000 a year. As a senior associate at a law firm in Los Angeles. And and not only that, but she was allowed to work at home a certain number of days a [00:25:00] week and not working crazy hours and, and she was getting paid too much.
[00:25:05]And there's a lot of people that are like that and she expected another law firm to pay for that with no business. And that's just not realistic. It's not realistic probably to make. It's just, it's not realistic. You have to, understand like what the market you ran we'll pay and you have to, go some place.
[00:25:23] And if you commit to wherever you're working and if it's a good place may advance people, then you'll make a lot more money. Other requirements that people have are reduced hours. Working remotely and things and, and that can, obviously all those things are possible.
[00:25:37]There's, countless attorneys that work remotely or or that work reduced hours, but, anytime you inject something into your job search that limits the number of offers you get, or as a hard and fast requirement, it's going to make it harder for you to get a job.
[00:25:53] Your best option is to not introduce this stuff into your search and then maybe try to negotiate it later. [00:26:00] I saw a a guy got a really good job actually this morning. And and he was he's in a Southern state and he had this, these demands that, that he'd be able to go to I don't know, sports games or something, one or two days a week with his kids and leave work early and and not be available.
[00:26:18] And he was trying to work in a major firm and, and they said yes and hired him even in the middle of this, weird market and but at the same time it, it did put the brakes on the process for awhile and and then they needed to meet with him again.
[00:26:34]And it could have resulted in him not getting the job if he had brought it up before the offer and so forth or after the offer, he probably would have had a little bit more negotiation leverage and it wouldn't have risked his job. So you need to be careful with that sort of thing, so if you're applying to the wrong sorts of jobs, so you need to fix this, it's going to hold you back.
[00:26:55] And let me see. Yeah. Okay. So the next thing is, your resume cover letter may need a [00:27:00] lot of work. And I see this all the time with people looking for jobs and it's distressing and I have done a lot of work on, talking about resumes and cover letters.
[00:27:10] And then I'm going to talk about it again real briefly, but one thing I can say, and I was talking to all of them. Doing a write up this morning for everyone that works here. And one of the things that I've noticed, and this is very important and I hope you guys consider this is that, the best resumes that get offers that get interviews and so forth are always, almost always focused on one thing.
[00:27:34] They're not the, person's not all over the place. They look like they do one sort of work. And then I had a meeting yesterday with some of our recruiters and we had a candidate. That had been doing real estate and banking work and the bank, it didn't work actually right now, like anything to do with banking and workouts for loans and stuff is very marketable.
[00:27:54] But prior to that, they'd been doing like a mix of banking work and litigation and all that stuff. And they'd had all [00:28:00] these jobs like over, 10 plus years and. And so the discussion was, you need to make this person's resume, look more focused on banking and the emphasize, all this other stuff.
[00:28:10] There's nothing dishonest about, not drawing lots and lots of attention to things that aren't related to what's marketable. So your resume has to look like something in your cover letter that's focused, it needs to, it's gonna determine what happens to you, who interviews you and who makes you an offer?
[00:28:28] See some of the strangest resumes, all the time and they have all these things that are completely unrelated. There's a format of resumes. That's like a military resume that people write and then the military teaches you to write resumes in a certain way. And those are typically just crazy.
[00:28:44]They talked about, all this stuff, like an awards and. And like law firms do not want to see that they want to see someone looks good for the background of the job that they have, and they don't want to see all sorts of other things that are completely unrelated because the look at it and [00:29:00] they'll get confused.
[00:29:00] And, one of the things is when you're writing something for court, you need to have an argument and that argument needs to be clear and direct, and you want the judge or whatever to. Take your side by being fair and in realizing where you stand on an issue and taking your side.
[00:29:17] And so if you put in all this other stuff that confused with the judge and has nothing to do with anything you're probably not going to win the best litigators and the best, people are able to make very concise points and able to all themselves very well. And you need the ability to sell yourself.
[00:29:36] You need the ability to. Be very clear and direct and say you do something and and really do a good job. So I told you that this military stuff. And so the other day I reviewed a resume of a law student that wants to work in a law firm. And I reviewed these resumes, all the time.
[00:29:52] And and because people come out of the military and there's legal jobs in the military and they want to work. So this attorney had a [00:30:00] resume that had all of these, honors and activities, and it was, five pages and it had all sorts of just Italian leadership and talked about, the types of tanks that we drove and and what a great military resume.
[00:30:14] But the problem is, like someone that's, been looking at books all their life. Looking at this and just need someone to, order someone to go write a memo, or, it's not going to want someone that, has this sort of resume. It's just, they're gonna want, they're gonna want to know what this person can do to help the employer.
[00:30:34] And it's got to speak to that. So anything that you've done, that's not related to practicing law really needs to minimize. If this guy had just put his dates, data, real military service, And his final rank or whatever. And and the branch, he was him and his law school and and college and left it at that.
[00:30:54]He'd be much better off than all of this other stuff, but he's righteously very proud of, I, I'm certainly proud of, [00:31:00] all the trophies and stuff I got growing up and awards that I got when I was in high school for various things, but I'm certainly not going to put all those on my resume.
[00:31:09]So it's just, people don't want to see it. It's just the traps from what you have and you need to look like someone that. Wants to work something work in a law firm. You need to think about how your audience is looking at things and they don't, they're, they it's about your audience.
[00:31:24] It's not about you. Having one more journal or one more award, or one more honor, or one more, class lifts state, it's not going to make a difference in what the employer thinks the employer is going to bring you in. For, because you look focused and because they believe that you can do a job and that's really it.
[00:31:42]They're not gonna they're, being the editor and chief of a law review or something, it was a big deal, but, they're not really going to be that interested in a lot of different things. If you were the members for the, whatever club it's just, they have to look focused.
[00:31:57] So your resume will look the part. [00:32:00] And so this particular guy was not getting jobs, not getting interviews because he had a five-page resume that had nothing to do with practicing law. And it's a problem and lots of people do it. And I don't like it. You need, the other thing you need to worry about is your resume needs to make you look stable.
[00:32:17] It needs to make you look committed to legal work. So if you're not getting interviews your resume is probably making you look unstable, your resume needs to, really look like, what you want there needs to be some sort of, look of like upward mobility and that sort of thing of people are going, to take a chance on you because they're receiving lots of resumes for most jobs and then you need to look the part and.
[00:32:40]I've done presentations on resumes. I've done presentations on cover letters. I, I've talked a lot before and written a lot about this, but this is a big thing too. So if you have the right resume and if you have the right very direct cover letter and then how you're applying to places, anyone should be able to get a job.
[00:32:58]I've gotten, people [00:33:00] from, small law schools that. In Michigan coming out of school helping them, 10 plus job offers in a major market like Los Angeles by reaching enough employers and making the resume look focused and having a direct cover letter and, doing things in a way that needs to be done.
[00:33:19] But if you're doing too much and trying to look like too much, it's gonna hurt you. Okay. So the next thing is his interview skills, and then I'm going to talk, this is going to be fun. Cause I'm going to talk about, reasons to take offers and reasons not to take offers, but I just want to show you first why you're not getting the offers you want and the things you need to do.
[00:33:40]Interview skills are important. There's people that. Really do very well in every interview that go into some people are just, tell me, I get every job I'd go into and they're right. They do. They're just very direct. They asked the right question, they smiled then socially.
[00:33:56]They talk about what they can do for the employer. They ask a lot of questions. [00:34:00] They come across as they want to work and we'll do a good job. And, you need to read that the things I've written about interviewing but you also need to understand. You know that the best people in interviews, make the interviews about the employer enough themselves.
[00:34:13] It's the same thing with the resumes. Like I spoke about the resumes that weren't, getting a lot of traction are ones where the person is just talking all about themselves and not really thinking about being direct. And, you need to appear willing and able to work. I've seen, people come in to work with me and, and they just don't appear like they're enthusiastic about working and and they don't, you just don't know.
[00:34:35]But the employer wants to feel supported and if you're not getting offers you're likely doing something wrong and, you should read about it and you should study up on interviewing you. Shouldn't talk to other people. About what you've done interviewing.
[00:34:48]If, even if you're out of law school law schools will have career services, offices that are very good. They will talk to you about what you may be doing wrong, interviewing and you should get a sense of what you're doing wrong. [00:35:00] The major thing that people do wrong in the interviews is they don't psych themselves up for the job when they go in and that comes across or they're nervous or they're not.
[00:35:08]They're holding something back and they were fired from a job and they think that the interviewer is not going to like them for that. And you need to pick yourself up and get enthusiastic when you go on for interviews and you need to make the person think that the job is important to you and that you want to connect.
[00:35:22] And this represents something to you because employers not want to hire people that are likely to leave. That particular guy that I told you about the appellate clerk, why would I hire someone? Even if the heck red cloth locations, I knew them off the job, you just need to. Really be enthusiastic and you need to read about it and you need to think about it and you need to play, out these interviews in your mind and see what you did, and what you did wrong. And think about the interviews you did get where you did get jobs. And in most cases you probably were able to connect with the employer somehow, whether it was. Common shared interest or an interest in working for them, or you [00:36:00] communicated that you liked the employer that worked in there meant something to you.
[00:36:03] You'd have to think about what you've been brought, but people that don't get jobs a lot of times, because they're introduced they just need improvement. I can say, there's two types of kind of there's the older ones and then there's a younger one, older ones may. Come across as sometimes it's knowing too much or not being able to be managed that's, and and making the employer feel like they won't be in control or they may have to come across seven chip on their shoulder.
[00:36:28] This I'm just talking about people that are, a few years out of law school. I'm not necessarily saying people with 10 or twine. They don't mean a few years out of law school, younger interviewers. A lot of times come across as not as enthusiastic. Not having a lot of energy not having a lot of enthusiasm.
[00:36:44] Those are some of the mistakes that people make, or they talk too much about themselves and and they let that come across. So those are just some ideas, if your interview skills need improvement, you need to fix that. And when you do get interviews, because you should realize that all the work that goes into getting an, a single interview [00:37:00] is a big thing.
[00:37:00] And if you blow it that's your problem, but the problem is. Is, that when an employer invite you in for an interview, the big thing to remember is that person has a need and they really do want to like you and they want to be sold. And. They want to hire you. It's really the ball's in your court, and and especially if you're applying to, if you get an interview with a firm that doesn't have an open, then that firm really wants to try to give you a chance. So you need to sell yourself. When you go in, you need to make it about the employer. You need to really focus and, please, review other things I've done about interviewing, but that's very important.
[00:37:36] Okay. So the next question is Should I take a job offer I'm not happy with. And that means, taking a job with a firm or a company or an employer that, you're not going to want to stay at a long time. It's basically entering a relationship with someone or an employer that you know, that, it's not going to last, people jump around from employer to employer unhappy.
[00:37:58]They work in places [00:38:00] that they don't think, that they're going to stay in the longterm. And there's reasons, to take a job that you're not happy with. One of them could be, you need the money you have a family to support and those are all good reasons.
[00:38:12] And, but you're only going to be in this situation, by the way, if you haven't done a lot of the things I'm talking to you about, which is making sure you don't undermarket yourself to making sure your resume's good and making sure. You're interfering well, but if you're, if you're getting a job offer you're unhappy with, and you really think it's the only thing that you can get and the geographic location you're living in a tie to or whatever, then there's obvious reasons to take it.
[00:38:33] The other thing that's important to remember is, anytime there's a gap on your resume it's gonna be harmful now, there are good reasons to have gaps. One of the reasons it's perfectly acceptable is. If you're having a child or in, in most employers really are not bothered by that at all.
[00:38:53]And it doesn't help hurt you at all. Really pretty much, from the second you, you start law school, you're [00:39:00] expected to have a summer job you're expected to have hopefully work in a firm and your second summer if you want to work in a law firm and you're expected to have a job when you get out.
[00:39:10] And pretty much when you retire. Lawyers are supposed to be employed constantly. And I, I don't know where that rule comes from. But that's how lawyers think. And I, even between when I finished the clerkship, I think in I don't know, like July and I have a job starting in October and and where my clerkship ended and.
[00:39:30]All these people were like, why aren't you can't ever captain your resume, but blah blah. And this was a long time ago and these were other attorneys that said that to me, like there was something criminal about, taking a few months off and that's really, I don't, I hate to say it, but that's not attorneys thing.
[00:39:45] And it's just the way that the professionals, so you need to do whatever you can to try to stay employed and to have to not have gaps in your resume. If you can avoid that. And and that's one reason to take a job doing Hathaway. If you [00:40:00] think that you're not going to get something better.
[00:40:02]And I hate to be the bearer of all this news. Cause I know, for a lot of people that aren't employed it's very difficult and it's not, I'm not trying to rub salt on anybody's wounds or anything. If you have this gap, it can always be fixed later, the thought is I think that.
[00:40:17] You know that, anybody that has marketable skill, like being an attorney should be able to find a position. And if you have an employment gap, it shows, you're not really effectively able to represent yourself and find something when you need to, if you were representing a client, a good attorney, like clients better than that, all sorts of problems.
[00:40:34] I need to fix this. Fix this and do this. And the good attorney is expected to solve it. And you having a job is a problem and it's something that you need to solve. And if you're not doing it, then it's gonna make you look on marketable. If you can't solve your own problem, how can you solve others' problems with effectively and all the tools that I'm talking to you about, which are things like feelings.
[00:40:57]Research and finding places, going out and [00:41:00] knocking on doors. So places necessarily have openings. These are the kinds of tools and things that a good attorney would do with our clients. If a client, if you needed to solve a client's problems, you wouldn't just, look at what the law says.
[00:41:12] You would look at other people you can talk to that can help you around the law that may not be holding them. There's all sorts of things that you can do to solve problems. If you look at people that. Get out of problems and so forth. A lot of it is just network working and and then things that attorneys do.
[00:41:28] Imagine how good the attorneys are, behind the scenes of some people that get off on, doing things that are bad or, how companies avoid getting sued and so forth. They have good attorneys that are working behind the scenes and sovereign problems. So you need to solve problems.
[00:41:43] So an employment is a problem. The other thing is If you have a gap on your resume, a lot of employers will think that there's something wrong with you. And the why the wonder, why others are not hiring you, not taking a chance. For the most part, attorneys do not make [00:42:00] Huge amounts of money.
[00:42:01]They may, make a good living, but most of them do not make huge amount of money. So they, if you're not working, the perception is that every attorney needs to work. And that's what people think. That people believe if you're not getting hired, there's something about you or something happened.
[00:42:16]And others aren't going to take a chance. It could be that you don't want to work. It could be that you were fired or you did something wrong. There's. Bad news about you and the legal community. I had a guy once. It was very strange. He had been and this isn't a Midwestern state. He'd been unemployed for.
[00:42:33] I don't know, like six months and had a great background in this practice area. And and from all intensive purposes, I didn't see anything wrong with him. And and he was hired by a firm and they were very excited to get him and but then about a week into hiring him they suddenly fired him and and I said, What happened?
[00:42:53] And they said nothing. And I said what why did you let him go? And I guess there was some, and they said [00:43:00] if he didn't tell you, we can't tell you why there. And I said what, and so something had happened with him in the past at an employer or something, I don't know.
[00:43:09]But there was something wrong and the news got back to the firm and. The, when he was hired and then they let him go. It was very strange. And, so the problem is when you have a gap on your resume, a lot of times firms will assume that there was something like that. And I don't know, to this day, what the guy did.
[00:43:25]He said he didn't know, but I don't know. He was equally confused by it. Maybe someone didn't like him or I don't know. I just don't know, he had a gap and it hurt him. And so a lot of times people would gaps. Law firms don't like that. The unwritten rule that you need to remember why it's important to take offers a lot of times that because, you're just expected to start working and law firms want you they want people that need to work.
[00:43:50]It's very rare, but when, a lot of times when attorneys make a lot of money and they can retire, they do, but law firms want you to need to work and be able to work employers because this [00:44:00] gives them control over you. They like it when you buy houses, they'd like it, when you buy cars, they like it.
[00:44:04] When you have a family, they like when you have a mortgage, because they know you're going to need to support all that stuff and need their money to do it. The unwritten rule is, much you start working. You're really never expected to stop working. So I have just a quick story.
[00:44:17] That's funny, but there's a saying in real estate and a lot of times that the first option you get is going to be the best offer you get when selling a house. It's, I'm not sure if it's always true, but in my experience with this and so I the idea is this at once.
[00:44:31]Something comes up to the market. It's fresh, everyone's enthusiastic. And and and then, they're gonna get the best price it's going to happen. So I want to purchase the house. I think it was, it might've been a little bit more than 300, like 380,000 or something, but I purchased house for $308,000 less than it received an offer for when it first went on the market.
[00:44:51] And and and then it sat on the market and it was a good league. It was a good job. Just a good housing market. It was during the housing, boom. But it sat on [00:45:00] the market for almost to here, and a good market after receiving this offer and the longer the houses on the market.
[00:45:06]The more people found things wrong with it when they looked at it and even the real estate agent would be like telling me, all the problems with it. But the house is right next to their bus stop or across the street. And and the buses were loud and there was a lot of smoke, that would come over the road and the backyard was dark smoke.
[00:45:21] It was, there was a large hotel right across the street as well. During the weekends, there would be no parking on the street. They would, the staff would come out and three, three, after their shifts every day. And then they'd all stand on the bus stop and, smoke and talk.
[00:45:36]And then the worst thing about it though, is it's actually funny, but there was a a person that had originally own the hat on the house before me, like several, a couple of people before me was this girl that was twenty-five and. Like a socialite and just all apparently, and drugs and stuff, and she'd painted, hired some artists and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in the 1980s.
[00:45:59][00:46:00] Painting all these things on the ceiling, you couldn't really get rid of them because, the artists was like appreciating their value, but it was that these paintings were just absolutely astonishing how bad they were anyway. It was stuff we just didn't want people looking at the ceiling, especially cats.
[00:46:17]I bought the house and, it was just all these things. You can get something a lot less a lot of times when it's been on the market for a long time and we typically people will ask the longer you've been on the market, what's wrong with you.
[00:46:28] And so it is important to try to get offers as quickly as possible. It's important to, take offers. It's important to market yourself a lot of places because you don't want to be in the market a long time and the longer on the market, the longer you're presumed valuable, the more people, B I'm nervous about pulling the trigger and looking at to question why you've been on the market so long time, so those are reasons to take an offer, but And you just want to avoid a gap in your resume.
[00:46:57] So [00:47:00] there's also reasons to not take, a job offers you're unhappy with and and these are very important and I, and the one thing that I think is. With any employer is if you come in and you really commit to them, when you do a good job and you show your value, any employer can be a good place to work, not everybody as well willing to do that.
[00:47:23] And there are, excuse me, there are places to work that are not good places. And and there's nothing. You couldn't really do to control that. And and you shouldn't be there, but, take a job. You don't want, you're always going to have one foot off the door. You're not going to work as hard as you might.
[00:47:39] You're going to feel angry. You're not doing what you want or getting the experience you want or getting paid, and you're gonna poison the people around you. You have a bad attitude. You're going to set yourself up for bad references. You're just going to have bad feelings about yourself and you're just going to have an overall.
[00:47:56] That experience, we don't approach it in the right way. And [00:48:00] one story that I have is, I, in our company, we get all these people coming to try to get placed in every day. And and I always, every year and this year has been, especially a lot of people, every year there's going to be people.
[00:48:16]There, there are people that I, whose resumes I come across that are, fresh graduates. Like they're just graduating from Harvard, Berkeley, Columbia for support. And, for whatever reason they're not getting jobs. And a lot of it's kinda me based, but a lot of times, they may not.
[00:48:31] Interview they may not have done searches. They, and they just they somehow they don't look as attractive as they, to firms that are getting implying their peers and and there's just, in there, but they want to work in a large law firm. In the 20 years I've been doing this I see a lot of these people that aren't getting jobs sometimes.
[00:48:49] And, in one case, I hired a guy that had been a that ended up, he was brilliant, but he was just so dunno, he was more interested in like computer programming and [00:49:00] that sort of thing and and very kind of solitary activities. And and that's what he entered, ultimately doing but, but I hired him to do legal work.
[00:49:09]I've hired other people. Hired one person that graduated from a top law school at the age of like 17 or 19 and was like the youngest graduate of the top 10 law school history. But anyway, the point is like I come across people that for whatever reason are unable to get positions and and I've hired them, because I want them, I don't like it.
[00:49:27] I feel that I want to help people and and give them a legal experience. And but all of these people and we're resentful because I didn't, I couldn't pay them as much as a large law firm because I'm not a law firm. I couldn't pay them as much as large law firms were paying.
[00:49:43]And initially they were happy to get the position, but then they became resentful. So in one example, I hired someone and and this is a long time ago, but the, it was It was actually the guy that graduated at the age of 19 or at, from a top 10 law school.
[00:49:59]And he was [00:50:00] upset that he wasn't getting paid as much as a major law firm. And he was very smart and able to do very well very smart and just brilliant. Just, and but anyway, so I hired him and and and then he protested and. After being there for six months and wanted to make as much as a major law firm, but pay.
[00:50:18] So I ended up paying them as much as the major law firm I was paying, which is dumb. But at the time it seemed like a good decision and. I was trying to be nice and help them and he didn't have any family but, by, and but anyway, he was still unhappy then, because then he said I shouldn't have to work as hard because I'm not working in a major law firm.
[00:50:37] I'm working in house and I shouldn't have to do this and this. And he was leaving at five every day and saying, that Still unhappy. So the point is that, I hired people that didn't want to do the job and they were unhappy and they were resentful that they weren't getting paid as much.
[00:50:53]They would undermine the people around them. By complaining about the job and the pay or like that it wasn't a big [00:51:00] firm. And weren't committed to the work and the spirit away, and it was a mistake. And, I've made that mistake on numerous occasions by trying to help people and it's not, so when you take the job off and you're not happy with, then.
[00:51:15] It can hurt you. And all of these people who should have had really good experiences with their first employer had a bad experience. I felt bad, they felt bad. It just was not a smart thing. I've also made a lot of mistakes. Hiring recruiters, for example didn't really want the job and.
[00:51:31]Took jobs and didn't want, the people that I hired, the young people, the coming out of law school from great schools and so forth I made a mistake because they didn't really want the job and they couldn't commit to it. And and they made a mistake because it wasn't what they wanted.
[00:51:46] But one case is I made An offer to someone who had an incredible legal background and had actually worked in another pretty firm. I never hire people from other recruiting firms, but this particular guy I decided to, and he was made an offer. And then for several weeks [00:52:00] he just sat on the offer and didn't respond.
[00:52:02] And I was just, mo