How to Successfully Network Yourself

Description

2022-0615 How to Successfully Network Yourself
[00:00:00] Today I'm gonna be talking about really what I think is one of the, probably one of the most important topics in the legal profession and it's in terms of practicing law, getting business getting jobs and and really pretty much everything you do. And the reason this is such an important topic is.
If you understand what I'm gonna talk about today your career can not only change, but your life, once you start practicing law or after practicing law, if you've been practicing for some time can phenomenally change. And let me just gimme one second.
And and the reason for that is I'll just tell you a quick story. I was and this is just related to networking and but this is just from a week ago, I was at an event and Santa Monica and I happened to be sitting next to an attorney. He was a pretty young, he was, I would say maybe 43, 44.
And he had a book of business that was probably about 40 million, which is a good book of business. And he was with a major Los Angeles law firm. And he'd gone there actually from a smaller firm and had grown up in a Kind of a [00:01:00] working class home in Chicago he's first generation American.
And I think his mom was a maid and his dad, I dunno, worked in a fast food restaurant or something. And and he managed to get a job in Los Angeles when he, and at a smaller firm and over the past since he graduated from law school, he would put in about 50% of his time into networking and the other 50 and the other about, I would say he, if he build 2000 hours, he would spend a thousand hours.
Networking. If you build 3000, he would spend 1500 networking. And that was his whole modus operandi. He'd spent basically half of his time networking. And the thing that I thought was interesting is he was going out and he would just meet different business people and different people. And he did that from the time he was maybe a third or fourth year.
And and by the time he was, came up for partner. He had more business than most people in his firm. And and he said, the one thing that characterized what he did is he actually never asked for business. He never asked people to hire him. He never suggested they hire [00:02:00] him. And business always came to him.
And really it's just because of the power of networking. When people were thinking of an attorney, he was the first person that came to mind and in his whole career grew that way. So I thought it was very interesting when I talked to him because so many attorneys that I have talked to that are very successful, have developed giant books of business by just basically being seen.
And I think if there's anything that you understand about networks, that anything you remember from today's talk having the, those networks and being seen is really one of the most important things for attorneys. It can lead to jobs. It can lead to All sorts of things. And it's also interesting to me cuz now we're in a, a market where it looks like everything's going into a recession, so people will start losing jobs and they've already have, and when that happens there's always a certain type of person that gets jobs very easily.
And it typically is the person that's most networked. They just, all they do is they just call people and talk to them, including recruiters, they call different people. And and somehow they always end up on top, even in the worst markets. And it's really the power of that networking. And I think [00:03:00] your life can really change if you learn how to network effectively and your career can change.
So that's what we're gonna talk about today. And and unfortunately one of the problems, I think of a lot of large law firms and a lot of attorneys is that they'd never learned networking and and then a lot of big firms there's people there that are very smart. Have incredible qualifications and did very well in school and so forth, but they never learned the game of networking.
And there's a statement that's, it's funny, it's that the the, a students will work for the B students and the C students will be the ones that own the firms and the companies and that sort of thing. And and it is like that to some extent learning to network is incredibly important and and it can get you in the door, it can get you business and it can really be the deciding factor in what type of job you get and what type of what happens to you?
If you're networked you are a much more person that's much more likely to get hired. You're much more likely to get referred business because people trust people that other people know. And and so understanding that is important and that's what [00:04:00] endorsement's about. And that's what referrals are about.
And you may see this all around you. The reason that actors are used, for example, or in television to advertise products or on billboards is because all those things will the people trust them because they've seen them in movies, they relate to them, or they've seen them on television and they relate to them.
And therefore they think of that person's name behind something that must be good. And and so most, products, whether it's a car or an investment firm or a diet product have someone referring them. And the reason that happens is because it works and people to build a good name for themselves are very careful giving out their recommendations.
And so people always trust the opinions of those they're familiar with. And and if those opinions come from famous actors or athletes or coworkers or colleagues, it doesn't matter. And because people have seen the person before and they have an idea who they are and and that just makes them a lot more comfortable with hiring someone and, at.
Important thing to remember is people are tribal animals. And so what that means is we don't trust strangers. We don't trust people that we don't know. We [00:05:00] trust people that know other people we know, or we trust people that we are familiar with, but we don't trust people. We don't know. And if people know you then you're much more likely to be trusted and and that's helpful.
And so in the medical profession and the legal profession and doctors and dentists and wires, a lot of them get all their work through referrals, through trusted people and emails go out. I receive emails all the time. I received one yesterday from someone looking for a referral of an attorney.
And so the idea is when someone is professionally recommended, it really changes the balance of the equation. It makes it the person's much more likely to get something. And and that's how employers feel about getting job candidates. They, most of the time, they would much rather meet you through a referral because it makes you seem more trustworthy than than meeting you through just if you apply in your own, I've had instances too, by the way, with law firms where.
I've represented candidates that may have applied to 20 firms on their own. And if I apply them to the senior 20 firms, I may get them 10 interviews. Now it's not because the I, there's any, the candidate has changed. It's just because of that [00:06:00] I've, put my name behind the person and written things about them and and interviewed them and and gotten information and makes them more trustworthy to the firm.
And so firms are just like colleges and law schools and so forth. A lot of 'em do rely on referrals. If you have to apply to college, you need a recommendation and many times the better your recommendation and the more trustworthy recommendation the better off you'll do. A referral is helpful because it, it gives evidence that you about your character and your ability to the work.
And it's almost as if someone has provided just like in you television or so forth testimonial on your behalf. And you may have noticed on BCG, for example, or law crossing or different sites, we have lots of testimonials. And we do that because we wanna show people that other people that are similar to them have gotten positions and it helps.
And and and it gives credibility for people using the different services. When a recruiter gets involved, that often means the employer couldn't find someone like you. Employers love to refer people to things. If they have a friend or someone they know they would often rather bring in the person and refer [00:07:00] that person to a job than otherwise.
But in most cases they wanna, they would rather network to try to find the right person. And if someone refers you a job or someone refused, refers you to someone else that has a job opening they're much more likely many times to get that job than without the referral. So it's important.
And so if I suggest to you that you consider my friend or some other specific person and you evaluate them that's going to make a huge difference. And coming through someone you trust as an authority being recommended for the job is something that really can make a massive difference.
You can really help quite a bit. The writer, Charles Lamb said, don't introduce me to a man. I want to go on hating him. And I can't hand him hate a man who I don't know. It applies directly job search as well. If your prospective employer knows you, it's much more likely that you'll get the interview and the job than if not.
And again, the other thing is on a personal level introduction by colleague, a business associate and so forth can have often the same effect as an endorsement. And I've been studying referrals for a long time and really for most of my career. And I remember when I was starting I was working for a very Powerful attorney.
He was, very well [00:08:00] known at the time. And and he said something that he, the thing that he regretted more than anything was he didn't develop better relationships with his classmates when he was in law school, because. Think he'd gone to Harvard or something. And a lot of those people became very known attorneys.
And and I thought, essentially what he was saying was that there were all these people he could have relied on when he was getting into his career. And and they could have helped him in various areas because they were in important firms or had access to business and things. And but he'd never considered the possibility and that those people would be able to help him in the past, in the, in the future.
And that ended up hurting him. There are all sorts of people who could provide you with employment opportunities all around you. In addition to your coworkers and your relatives and friends you'll often see a lot of other people that could be a resource for you if you look closer.
It's interesting where referrals come from, because when you talk to attorneys about how they got a client and so forth, they you get all sorts of stories and literally they could be from the grocery store. The cashier could be an opportunity. The person you buy gas from the dry cleaners when you sit at the doctor's office the PE person who meets sitting next to you, every single place you go.[00:09:00]
Spend your time. It really is an opportunity to get a job. And if you're looking for a job you can certainly use those referrals to find new opportunities. It's a very important thing. And if you're happily employed you really should be in the process of always building a referral network because it will help you get jobs and it will also help you find work when you need, when you when you need it.
And it's very important and it can help you both get employed and stay employed. The first thing I'd like to cover today with referrals is how do you make yourself referable? And and how do you become the person that others are willing to refer to jobs. And and I'll you're about to discover I'm about to tell you some basic strategies to ensure you're referable.
But before I do, though, I'd like to tell a quick story about just, I was thinking about someone I referred to a job yesterday. And I was recently I got a referral. Someone was asking for a referral for, I'm not gonna say the type of attorney, but they're asking for referral for a type of attorney and.
An attorney that I know is actually a law school professor and UHIS at a couple major firms and now wants to go and be a go back into private [00:10:00] practice. And so I've been talking to the person about that. And in addition, he does some work on the side, but for clients and and so someone asked me for a referral to someone to help them.
And when I referred this particular person to a client, what I said was this is a very interesting attorney because he he's actually more concerned. He loves the work and he's more concerned about the work than money in charge you a lot of money and so forth. He just loves the work and he's worked in major firms and he could be making, five times what he is making right now, teaching in law school.
But he's just really loves the, this practice here at he's in he's someone, he also doesn't charge a lot because he's working on his own. And I think he's someone you'd really like to work with. I was on this email string where to a huge group of guys in this business group I'm in and and girls, I guess there some girls on it too, and everyone was asking for different referrals and and that was the referral that I gave.
And everyone seemed to really appreciate it. So where the person that needed it appreciated. So the idea was the person was referable because they were not just an attorney out there trying to earn as much money as possible and so forth [00:11:00] because they were someone that really cared and was really dedicated to the practice area.
And that's what I considered a referral person, not just someone, I know everyone else, data referrals was adding different people that they knew and so forth. And another thing that there's a lot of reasons that people refer people to people, but but the point was is that I felt very good about the person that I referred.
So one of the things to understand about being referable, and this is really one of the most important things to be referable is you needed to do good work. And so if you want someone to stand behind you your work must be exceptional. So years ago, I remember I was talking to a an attorney and and he wanted to go into business with someone I know.
And and he said, oh, I figured out this in practice up this practicing law. So he was looking for a referral to practice law with someone else that I know when I was talking to him, he said Oh, I figured out this way, I've already done all these forms and all these pleading. So I, I'm able to go in and, prepare a motion and build 10 hours for it.
Even though it only takes me like an hour to fill in the information, cuz the original one took me [00:12:00] 10 and I was like, this guy's dishonest. He's not the kind of person I wanna refer. He's not the kind of person I would be comfortable referring clients to. And he is not the kind of person I'd be comfortable referring.
To be a partner with this other attorney at now. So this is one of the things, you have to be exceptional and and you have to be stand out and you have to stand out being honest, but you also have to stand out being really good in some way. You have to be the kind of person that other people would recommend.
It's not enough just to be someone that does personal injury law. It's not enough to be someone that just does something you want to be the kind of person who others look at and think this is the kind of person that seems like a good fit for this sort of. Job or that sort of job. And when I was, even when I was in law school, when I got outta law school, I got, I was getting lots of referrals because and I get referrals from people I knew growing up, I get referrals from people.
I, I knew when I was in college and I lost school. And the reason was because I've always been like, you see how I'm like with this business, placements and recruiting. Like I've always taken everything very seriously. And I take my candidates. [00:13:00] Seriously. I take this work seriously. And anybody that takes things seriously is going to be referable.
People are gonna want to give them work. And and just something to remember, and so be referable there's a couple different kind of aspects to consider. One of 'em is personal. And the other is a professional. And in the personal category people you can you can be a certain type of person with your friends.
You can be vulnerable, you can make mistakes, you can you can I dunno, you can do bad things and so forth, but in the professional sphere, you need to be seen as a person that, that takes your work very seriously and who's serious. And. Likes what they do. So a lot of people have personal kind of personalities, things that ways that they act with their friends and their significant others and so forth.
And then people have a professional life as well. And so in the professional sphere, you need to be seen as a person who takes your work very seriously, who who likes what they do. And and that makes you referable. When you refer to someone like that, it's because you believe this person is really taking their field very seriously and very interested in it.
When I was practicing law, there was a partner that I [00:14:00] worked with that the second firm I worked at and and one day he, I worked with him and I thought he was very serious, but he had a whole big wall behind him. That was just basically wooden like these giant credenzas foul cabinets.
And I didn't know what they were for the longest time. And then one day I was in his office and he went and and some matter came up and he said this is a research file I have on a miss or whatever. And he pulled it out and I realized that when he pulled that out, I asked him, I said what is, and all these other things, he said there, there are research files for every single thing that I've ever worked on.
And and I have a special interest in such and such. And so he literally had thousands, if not tens of thousands of files, of every single thing he'd ever researched. And then he would read the newspaper every day, the legal newspaper. And he would sit there and he would cut out articles.
He liked and put them in different folders. And now that's someone that takes their work very seriously. And and then years ago I was giving I was coaching a very successful attorney [00:15:00] and and he had a huge book of business at a very young age. And had gone up from a small firm to a major firm.
And he had the same thing. He had a, this, he kept these huge books of all the things he'd, he was interested in his practice area and spent all this time. So these kind of things make someone referable if I had a matter. And I thought, wow, I have I'm, I would refer someone to someone like that.
That's taking the work very seriously because that kind of peop that kind of person makes someone very referable personally I was there's this I, I meet a lot of people that are referable. But sometimes I meet people that are just extremely honest.
They're honest, beyond being honest, like they. They have all these opportunities to to maybe do bad things or to cut corners and things. And then they take the high road and they do it when they don't think anybody's watching and that makes them referable. And and so you need to position yourself in some way that makes you stand out and look better than your competitors.
You need to look unique and have something to offer that other people don't have. And you need to make some sort of bond with your people. It could be, that you're very interested in the subject matter or [00:16:00] especially of your practice. It could be that what you're doing is very thorough and that you're very thorough in what you do.
It could be a lot of things, but when you're out there in the market, selling yourself, it's very important. That you're viewed as someone who's unique, different and memorable, and you make some sort of impact on people that makes you preferable. And here's another story to illustrate a point.
So one of the architects at Toyota who helped the company grow and who helped general motors grow at one point in the 19 eighties, when he started working with them was a man named Edward Deming. And he's, I think there's some books by him and so forth. But he and I've actually watched he's got some kind of webinar or seminar or something that I attended at one point.
He's when he was not, when he was alive, it was like a DVD. But anyway, that he talked about the needs to always improve our products and services. And when an organization does that it, it develops loyal customers. So if you're a Canada BCG, for example, you probably notice that every week when you log in there's new improvements in things.
And so we're always doing that and it develops loyal customers and in business identified and creating loyal customers is really the most important thing because someone [00:17:00] that's just merely satisfied is may try a product from a competitor and switch to it if the price is right, but loyal customers are want to come back again and again, and they might even pay more than the competition is asking.
 Apple became, of course I don't know if it still is, but the most valuable company in the world. By creating products were easy to use and that looked nice and had a lot of functionality. And then people would pay more for them and and people, they had followings and so forth.
Customers like their product, they'll brag about it. And when new products come out, they'll buy it and often it doesn't take a lot of effort. And they'll often tell others about it. And so what this means to you is if you're able to demonstrate to your network, that you're very referable and you're always striving to be the best and improve, then those people in your network are gonna feel very good about you.
And they're gonna tell others about how good you are now. Think about. People, that may have gotten sick. So a lot of people or get sick or get hurt or something or something is wrong when someone has brain cancer or some sort of, or what I don't know, but just any hypothetical disease or [00:18:00] something.
A lot of times what happens when it's very serious is they'll tell you, I went to see the best doctor in the world and they were in Houston, or they were in, the LA and I went to, or I went to this hospital. It's the best hospital in the world, or the, this person is the top attorney or, the top doctor, they operated on this famous person.
And so this is how the people refer to other people. And you have to be referable almost in the same way. You want people saying that the same things about you. So obviously, going to a good law school is a big deal. So if you say, my attorney, this attorney went to Harvard law school, or they went to Michigan law school or whatever.
And they practiced at this great firm, or they practiced at the best firm in Minneapolis or whatever those things are, how people refer to each other. Or they keep their rates low, even they could charge more or, but this is how people think of O other people and refer them. And this is what you should be thinking about in your career.
What are people going to say about you and how are they going to. Refer you and what is going to make you look good because you always need to strive to improve. And and if you do that [00:19:00] that's going to make you a lot more referable. And most employers are constantly being marketed to by people by friends and other people looking for jobs.
And in most cases, if there's a job most jobs by the way, can be filled through informal networks. If You know if, honestly, if if there's a job opening at a big firm, let's just say, hypothetically I don't know. What's a big firm Morrison and Forster could go and it could email its entire law firm and say, we have an opening for someone to be a third year labor employment, open attorney.
Does anyone know of anybody? Good. And they would get lots of responses now. They probably wouldn't do that, but they could. And so the idea is that most jobs can, and I'm just using that firm as a hypothetical wallet, but most firms can do that if they want to. They can fill through things through informal networks.
And they don't all the time because they don't wanna, there's a lot of reasons they don't, but they could. And so understanding formal networks is very important to understand it because when someone refers somebody they're really giving that person their seal of approval. And if someone refers someone who turns out to be dishonest, a [00:20:00] bad worker or lazy this is going to reflect very badly on the refer.
Now people love referring other people to people. They, it makes 'em feel good about theirself themselves, referring people. It makes 'em feel good because it it shows that they know someone that does this type of work. It makes 'em feel good because it makes 'em feel like they're helping someone. And it makes them feel like because they've referred someone, maybe there's gonna be some sort of gratuitous response to them.
Meaning people are gonna. Appreciate what they, that they referred them and come back and so forth and give them something in return. But it's just people like doing nice things for other people. So it's one reason why it's important, to be honest, if you're dishonest, you typically are not gonna be referable people that are dishonest with me.
I don't consider referable people that I see cutting corners are now working hard. I don't consider referable. And so you can pick up on that in a professional setting in your per, even in your personal life it's important to make yourself referable. So you have to have kind of the personality characteristics and so forth to make you referral.
And and the final thing about referrals is they're actually [00:21:00] very inexpensive. You don't if you if you want referrals you typically, you don't have to. Think get good job is for referrals. You don't necessarily need to spend a lot of money or use a job site.
 Your odds are gonna of getting interviews with certain places are gonna be higher. And your odds of getting a job are actually gonna be much higher with a referral because it's coming with a with a lot of information and and someone behind you. And so that makes a lot more sense than many times not having a referral.
This is about building your network and there's market research done by four shown that a lot of happy customers will a happy customer will tell eight people good news about a product or service, so they've enjoy it. So if you buy something and you like it, the odds are pretty much good.
You'll tell about eight people. But if someone who's unhappy with a product they'll typically tell about 20 people. So I've had some bad experiences of products and services, and I'm very happy to tell people and many times if I have a good experience, I'm not as enthusiastic about telling people.
And if you're the kind of person who's always complaining to friends, meaning you're down and working in a law [00:22:00] firm or you're unhappy, or you're having. Crazy problems in your personal life or you're always mad or about something or you're you're having problems with your superiors at work, or people are critiquing your work too hard, or you can't get along with coworkers or superiors, or, and you tell your friends about this.
This is going to impact your ability to be referable because friends are a good source of referrals, but again friends are putting their credibility on the line. So there's something that's interesting to me. So a lot of times very often what happens is when I'm working mechanics at BCG, for example, this is, and this has been going on for as long as I've been in this business, but someone will come to me and I'll say, I think we should apply to this firm.
And the person will say, No, I have a friend there. I went to law school with someone there and I wanna apply through them. You would think this is how people think that if they have a friend there or they know someone there that person that refers them is many times going to make it much easier for them to get a job.
And so the idea would be. I'm gonna have a better chance of getting a job because my [00:23:00] friend works there and so forth. And and I'm sure my friend's gonna say nice things about me and they're gonna trust me because my friend recommended me. Let's think about that for a moment. The problem with that many times is when I used to, when I see referrals from friends many times, so what the friends will often do is the friends many times, and this is quite often, and literally it's 50% of the time.
I don't know why, but 50% of the time your friends typically won't even forward your information to the firm. And sometimes if there's a, if there's a bounty, many times they definitely will. But for most of the time, about 50% of the time, they won't even refer them. I don't know why that is.
I'm assuming it's because they don't believe in you or they don't want competition, or they wanna feel a security or working in the firm. I don't know. Other times the friends will give will editorialize when they give your resume to the firm, they'll say, I like this person, but there's this problem and this problem, and, so I it's outta my hands.
Let me know what you think. And that's what a lot of people do when they give a referral. They'll say this is outta my hands and so forth. And so that doesn't help you too much. Other times your friends. May be in trouble with the firm. [00:24:00] And so the firm may actually not like them or the friend may not wanna hire, may not, and they may not even know they're not doing a good job the firm may not like them.
And then other times the firm may just not wanna have two people that conceivably, if things go wrong with one of you, then the other, one's gonna be mad at the firm and leave two. So the that's one way to think about kind of referrals and how that works. But the point is that when someone refers someone they wanna make sure you're really the sort of person that's referrable.
And so if your friends would have possibly have negative things to say about you or people that are referring you you need to be careful if you're on good terms with that person. And that person really does think highly of you, then it can make a huge difference. And relatives can refer you to firms.
And jobs are often a great source of referrals. Not only are close relatives but many times relatives you don't even know very well. And a lot of them may wanna do something for you even they've never had a chance. And and you're entire to grow friends and relatives and coworkers are also a great source of grateful.
So all these people can help you. And and that's why it's important to remember that when you're working [00:25:00] anywhere you're working I don't care if you don't like your job that you do the best possible job you can and you make the best possible effort to be referable.
I had an experience once and It was very interesting. I hired this woman to To help me in as in-house counsel and and she came to work and and she interviewed very well, and she was a referral from she actually had applied on her own, but then I didn't see her application.
And then she was referred to someone by someone else, and then I interviewed her and then she came to work and I think she worked for me for at least a couple years. And and then but then at some point the, I don't know, there were some issues too much stress and then depositions or so I don't know what she was just doing.
So she quit and but on the way out, like she was very nice and sent thank you cards and did all this nice stuff and was very nice and ended up becoming referable. So even though there were parts of the job that didn't work for her and that I wasn't ha pleased with.
She became very referral because of how she behaved. And but these are just things to think about when you're talking about, [00:26:00] being referral and and so people typically will wanna help you and and relatives again. And and and understand that everyone you encounter can be a referral.
Coworkers are great. Types of referrals, especially if you had good relationships with them. People you've worked in the past can often speak of your abilities, your character, and all sorts of other things. So the woman that I just told you about was a great referral. And I, she actually went and I think she started firm with a husband or something later on and, or went to work at her husband's firm.
And I referred business to them. And I don't know that the business actually worked out, but I did. And and so the point thing is that people can be referrals and you can be a referral. If you do a good job, anytime, wherever you're working, if you leave a good impression if you are and so forth and everybody you're working with your coworkers can be good referrals.
I had situations where coworkers have come and told me about jobs. But I've always careful about later in the know I was looking for a job when I was but you need to be careful, but I do think it's very important to stay in contact with people, including [00:27:00] friends relatives and coworkers.
And so I'm even thinking right now, I have bunch of our company has different legal matters and things going on, whether it's, doing trademarks or writing employment agreements and different things. And I'm using outside attorneys that I used to practice with that were very nice to me.
They were partners and firms and things I was in, and I've always like to refer my own business to people like that. So I'm just saying it's very easy to make sure that and I stayed in contact with them and they stayed in contact with me. So stayed in contact with person, everybody, is another person out there looking for a job and looking for opportunities to come up when you see nominations for things like the Supreme court ambassadors and so forth and people to be the head of different corporations.
These are also often the result of referrals. It also happens in lower level jobs, but in many of these higher level jobs you read about. Are typically people are referred to these sorts of people through different sorts of informal networks and people see if there's someone that would be good for them.
And they're really a way of life and something you need to understand and realize that [00:28:00] everybody you come in contact with in your job is going to be good channel and good people to refer people to you coworkers current coworkers and other people you need to be careful when you're working by with your current coworkers about letting know you want a job, but if you talk to current coworkers, you have good relationships with they'll often refer new information to you about available jobs and so forth.
When they come up I had a I've had a lot of people that I've known that that where law firms have had. Let them go for whatever reason, they just didn't have the work and partners and people on the firm actually ended up giving them jobs because they wanted to help them.
And then this is an example of a boss can refer you to a company because they think you do a good job and they know what you're like, and think you could refer business to them. So I've seen lots of senior associates and junior partners and other people where the law firm couldn't keep them on, but because the person had such a great attitude and worked so hard and was so honest and so forth the law firm ended up getting, giving them a job.
If you go to a major firm, say you're at I don't know. I don't get I on a ma major firm, but you're a huge 1000 person law [00:29:00] firm in New York and you're 12 or 13th year. And you've worked very hard. And there's no prospect you're gonna make partner because of whatever.
And and you, and have done a good job. And you're very referable people in that firm, if you've done a good job, developing relationships will wanna help you. And certainly if you make it to your 12 or 13th year, you'll be working for some very powerful people that have very good contacts inside of companies and other law firms.
And can often get you jobs. I saw an issue. Years ago I was working with a a senior, I don't know, guy was council, I think at Skadden. And and he was in litigation and and he was referred by a partner in Skadden to go be a partner at a, another good size firm. And so that stuff works and it can help.
And I've given you a lot of examples. Let's see here. Yeah, if you go to a job, do good work. And you've had a roadblock many times people will just give you a good referral and that can be helpful. You just dunno. Customers, so customers are also a good source of referrals.
In any type of business, meaning practicing law here you're likely to deal [00:30:00] with a lot of people in a professional capacity. And and the people that you're helping can be referrals. Clients in particular are great sources of referrals because clients work with other people in the same business.
And if you do a really good job for them and you go above and beyond they're gonna be very interested in referring people to you in the future. And they're gonna be more likely to, they're gonna wanna help you and they're gonna wanna give you referrals. And so that's important.
A lot of times your neighbors are great sources of referrals. I've seen people get lots of referrals from neighbors. They wanna have a good relationship with you. They want to feel good about the people they're near. And if they see you as a good parent and good neighbor they're gonna wanna set up some sort of reciprocity and they can be a good source of referral as well.
So I've seen by the way, lots of parents when they become parents and and they start raising kids, I've seen lots of them build huge books of business just from informal networks and so forth with their kids. They go to these events and they stand around and they somehow find all this business.
And the, but the people can all be a good source of referrals and it's important[00:31:00] that you're just aware that there's a lot of sources of referrals out there. And again religious groups are huge. I'm not gonna talk too much about it, but people get entire books of business just by their participation in various religious communities people in different religious groups and ethnic groups and so forth will often try to help people that are like them and refer a lot of business to them.
So it can be a massive source of referrals. I've seen other people get lots of referrals and we could be religion, but it even just sitting on different volunteering on nonprofit boards, going to different, sports types things. But a lot of times I think religious groups can be a great source of referrals for people.
In the legal industry. And I, I don't know that and clubs and things like that also can be I was, it was funny. I just, I was thinking as I was talking just now about this woman that I know that's very good at generating business. She's got a book of business. That's probably, I don't know, 20 million, which is, pretty respectable.
And but it's astonishing because she built this book of business. [00:32:00] She's never worked in a law firm and she has her own firm and has done all this all alone. And One time I was meeting her for for lunch. And and we were at this I dunno this club, which some we're invited to and she's standing around there and she's like, why would anybody come here during the day?
There's no way to get any business. Like what, what is, I don't get the point of this place. Cause I think it was like an athletic club or something where people were playing tennis and I don't know, but it was funny. And so a lot of times, a lot of very aggressive attorneys will think that the only point of belonging to a church or a club or whatever would be just to get business and cuz the people I think at this particular club didn't look like they could refer her business.
And I thought that was funny, but that's how a lot of people will look at groups. But and I don't think that's the right way, but again, of course, but but pretty much every organization you're part of can be a source of referrals. I've seen attorneys just on the most ridiculous organizations and I'm like, what are these people doing?
They're not interested in this but it ends up becoming a good source of referrals. Associations are good sources, referrals, where they can be a fraternal social, they can be whatever charitable [00:33:00] organizations charities can be a huge source of business.
I've seen people bring in. Massive clients from that. It's almost like they're, giving away their time for free, but are they really, because they think you're bringing huge business from that I think writers are a good source of referrals. Writers, if you become known in the press, you can do that.
And that can be a good source because a lot of writers will know a lot of people the newspaper writer may often refer people because they're going around meeting people. A lot of people, attorneys when they get well known or people with their own firms who get publicists to get things there's just lots of ways to do it that way.
And the dry cleaner is interesting to be a source of referral. So dry cleaners and people in, in local businesses and things where people are coming in will many times while they're waiting for their dry cleaning to circle people, ask them what they're doing and so forth.
And they'll talk and they'll say I know this person or this person that can be a source of referrals. And if you think about it, like a dry cleaner probably meets, might meet five or six people an hour, all day long or maybe more. And they can be a good source of referrals as well.
I, it sounds [00:34:00] ridiculous, but many times I've just seen a lot of people get referrals through, through things like that, that you never find normally. Okay. So this is a little bit about using your network and how do you use it? So everyone has a network by the way.
I've told the story before, and I think I told it a couple weeks ago on the webinar. I was in a long time ago, there was a kind of a famous course. It started out on cassette about teaching attorneys, how to get business and essentially what this, what it said, and this is what you should do, too.
If you wanna start learning how to network is you write down every single person that, and you write down whether it's a relative or someone, from work and just tons and tons of people, you just write them all down. And as you write them down you you start just accumulating a list and most people know between one and 200 people.
And so the whole idea of this course was you write down everyone, and you just reach out to them, whether it's through an email or a phone call and just see how they're doing, that's it. And just continue doing that. And if [00:35:00] you're constantly reaching out to people and doing something like that you will suddenly become a very good networker incidentally.
That's how bill Clinton there's a lot of stories about him, but he used to keep three by five cards, or I don't knows the three by two by three, anyway, three by five cards. And he would write down everybody he'd met on the cards and he would write some notes about them and then stay in contact with them and always remember names and look through that.
And I don't know where he learned that, but it's the same sort. Maybe he just did a natural, it's the same sort of process. And so many times when you have all these people that, you can, and if you do stay in contact with people that you meet, just putting a word out there that you're looking for a job can make a big difference.
Now, I don't recommend just contacting people outta the blue and asking them for a job many times really the best way to do that is to Just stay in contact with people periodically whether it's sending cards at different holidays and so forth, but it can really make a lot of people can really help you quite a bit.
And it's something that a lot of people don't do if the, if you're in contact with people and you're [00:36:00] making time for people, which a lot of people don't do then then people will often refer things to you on an ongoing basis or for opportunities. You'll learn about things. If you just call up people and discuss things with them and try to put time in to constantly building your network.
That's very important too. So just remember the, I started this webinar by telling you about this attorney with 40 million book of business that I met in LA. And I was just, I don't know I was how I randomly was seated next to him, an event that had nothing to do with the law but the, what he did and just remember he spent 50% of his time, meaning.
50%. So if he worked 3000 hours a year, he was spending a thousand hours a year just networking. And when he was networking, he wasn't after anything in particular, he was just going around, meeting people that he believed could be sources of business in the future, potentially. And that's what a lot of people do.
A lot of very successful attorneys. I've no noticed this my entire career in the legal industry, all they do is they go around and they offer their support and [00:37:00] help to people. Without charging many times they'll offer free advice and everything to try to help people in order to be seen and to build a network.
And that's how you do it. You just get out there and you start cotton being in contact with people. You tell people things that are helpful and so forth. Several years ago I sold a house, the CEO of a children's hospital, Los Angeles, and And I had a friend that was interested in working in that hospital.
But if you want to get into this neonatal type work, I think this person might have been like a neonatal surgeon or something. And she was coming out of a residency. It's very difficult to get a job there. And and when you learned that we knew someone who we knew someone to love to work there.
He started beaming because he knew that that, we'd be very nice to him. And they were trying to make this referral. He knew how competitive it was to work there. And all of a sudden, he was in control and and all sorts of things. I know if it's said that, but but least that's the sense I got and he was right.
And it's a perfect example. That I found someone just while I was happened to go about my business that was a good referral from someone else that I know. And and then I think [00:38:00] I, we may have tried to make an introduction there. I don't think she ever went to work there, so it didn't work, but but when she said she wanted to work there.
I happened to meet someone that could have done it. And that was a really nice opportunity for her. And that's the idea of networking. If you have just think about it this way, if you have, if there's a hundred people that, you know, and they know that you're a patent attorney, for example, and that those a hundred people are out there meeting people each day, but they're meeting all these people, but they really wanna tell them that, oh, I'm part of this community too, cuz I know a pat attorney, even if they're, working in a gas station, pumping gas, these, this is how referrals work and people don't think that, but everybody you meet is a potential referral and so that it's important.
And you wanna be passionate about your work. You want to be seen as very interested in your subject matter. And you wanna really be in a career that makes use of your strength. When I say makes use of your strengths. What I mean by that is you're doing something where you are likely to be seen as is very good at what you're doing and and where you're using where you have a lot of interest in it.
So a lot of times [00:39:00] people will do things just because they think they can make money doing it. They'll go into different things. A lot of business people will do that. They'll move from one business to another, even if they're not really interested in it, or they'll try one, sometimes people do it with hobby, they'll try one hobby over another hobby.
And the world kind of rewards people that commit to something and committing means they do something that they're interested in. And I had an experience. I just, I never forget this because it was very interesting, but I was talking to a college advisor, I dunno what I was thinking about going to college.
And he was talking about how this guy he was advising one year was very interested in different types of bugs and had this huge bug collection and liked to write about bugs and study bugs. And and and and then when he was applying to schools, he, even though he didn't have the best qualifications got into the very, very good colleges and stuff, because he had a passion for something.
And I think and it's like that with a lot of things. And then I remember when I was in college one of my friends when he was in high school, became very interested in the stomachs of [00:40:00] Bobcats and how they digest bones. I don't know. With special I don't even know. But and I think he, he had the same kind of story.
So you need to be enthusiastic about whatever you do. And and you should be very enthusiastic about your practice here. You need to be enthusiastic about how your work, think about the partner that I was talking to you about at the beginning of the webinar who had all these files or the other attorney I told you had all these files.
That's what you want. You want people that are very interested in what they do and that care about and are passionate about it. And and that's what you need to be referable. Because people that are enthusiastic and stand out are different. And there's not a lot of people like that.
A lot of people are just going through the motions. And and and sometimes you make mistakes. I remember one time I was Talking to this guy. And he was a I think he was a, he might have been a, I dunno, what some sort of tax attorney or something along those lines.
And and and when I first met him he said, oh, I've written this book about this, and I've done all this stuff. And and and I thought he was just really special. And but then I had some sort of [00:41:00] financial disagreement with him. I'd given him money to do some work or something, or to, I dunno, to do a tax return.
I don't remember what it was, but and he hadn't done it. And and and I went to him and I said, when I met you, I thought you were very enthusiastic. It seemed like you really committed. He said at this point in my career, I care about his money. And I was like, wow, like I missed that.
And then I looked at his book and his book was basically a Xerox of just a bunch of regulations cut and paste it into a book form. And so he wasn't really the right kind of person, but people that are really enthusiastic about something are rare. And and they that enthusiasm makes you want to use them many times.
And and the legal publisher industry. I, there's a, yeah, there's a woman that I know. That's very professional. She I think she used to work in law.com or something long that I met her a long time ago, but she Always has been very enthusiastic she's does what she says she's going to do.
She's referable. She she's upbeat. She connects with people and and literally people have been trying to hire the same woman for a long time. And and always are referring jobs to her [00:42:00] because she's talking to all these attorneys and other people all day, but she's been at the same job.
I'm guessing she might even be retired by now, but for a couple decades and. She's always getting people going to her because she's just very passionate about her little corner of the law, which I think is legal challenge or I don't know, but or what it is or legal something do with that.
But and people like her. You need to position yourself in the same way, someone that's very passionate about your corner of the universe, whatever it is it'd be very good at what you do. And and that gives you unique edge and by unique edge, what I mean is someone can say something about you and that makes you sound better than the rest.
An example would be they can say you're incredibly detail oriented and more passionate about details than anyone or or something along those lines. Or when people think of you, they say this is the most detailed person I know. And that's what I would say. I refer to him.
I had an experience too. It was interesting when I was Practicing was at my second firm. And the someone gave me something to mark up. And and I'd learned when I was in younger to how to edit. You wouldn't know it a lot, obviously by a lot of things I've written, but how to [00:43:00] edit legal things very well.
So I would, cross things out, write in other words, write different colors for grammar versus, anyway, so I, in the type of these notes, so I started editing things for people and just did one person's one day. And they like said, look at what, Barnes did. Like he marked this thing up, like crazy.
And then they passed it around and pretty soon other people were at him asking me to edit things and I got a reputation for good at that. And so that gave me and then and help. So people need to have something that, you stick out at and when you're practicing law and and business it's called the unique selling proposition.
It's something that sets a product apart. And Avis says it's number two. So they have to try harder, which you know, or and, basically it could be, or we try it hard because we're not number one. And and Domino's pizza. Used to be 30 minutes or less, or, so every successful product or service generally has some sort of unique selling proposition and people who become successful.
Really what the theme is that they're typically improving and getting better and better what they do all the time. So let's say I wanted to hire an architect and I went to [00:44:00] that architect's house and. If I didn't see any signs of their interest in architecture, I'd realize it wasn't a passion for them and just a job.
And and as a result, I probably wouldn't hire them. And an example would be what would an example be if they were living in a house that had no didn't look architectural at all? And if the inside didn't have any signs of anything that looked, had a certain type of style and then if they didn't have maybe books and things.
And if I didn't, if they just dressed in a frumpy manner that had no connection to architecture. When you look at really good designers, many times you'll see that their spaces are very reflective of the type of architecture or type of design that they do. The way they dress is reflective of that their that their choice of car, their choice of color, their choice of how they they groom themselves, all that sort of thing.
So a lot of, so the kind of people they become referable in any industry are people that are that really stick out and you can tell and read the profession just in them. Many times want someone who's interested and you want people that are committed and passion they're subject matter.
And you want that and need that. As a, [00:45:00] candidate of BCG, you have to decide, if you're a candidate of a recruiter, you want someone that's just trying to make money, or do you want someone who's really passionate about the subject matter and can and sees into it because the more.
The more someone is passionate about something, the more they care about it the more better off the client's going to be generally. I don't know. Maybe not in all instances, but generally and an example would be Tesla. So think about Tesla. So Tesla was this, and there's probably a lot of reasons the stock's been going down, but was this high flying stock when all.
Tesla was doing, was making cars. And all of a sudden Musk is deciding to buy Twitter and all of a other things and his attention's going away from that. And and then what are people thinking then? And so maybe the stocks are suffering because of that, because the lack of attention, the lack of focus on something and maybe worrying about space or whatever.
I'm not saying that's the cause of the stock going down. There's probably a lot of other factors, but the point is that People want to work with people that are committed to things. And and I think the most important thing is you need to come [00:46:00] across as committed and and you must show that you're always improving and getting better and better.
When you work with really successful companies or successful companies, they're always coming out with an announcement that they're doing this and they're doing this and they're doing this and they're improving this. And it used to be that a long time ago, in the, when I was if you can remember, probably a lot of people on this call are probably too young to remember it, but video game companies used to always come out and they'd say, this year, we're gonna go up to this chip.
And our things are gonna be more realistic than ever. And, you can't wait. And and so that, then this kind of constant sense of improvement would make different things happen. It's the same thing with car companies and with everything. And so it's important because you wanna really be seen as someone that's always improving and getting better and better.
And and that's really what it's like. And and again, being referable is just being the kind of person that others wanna be referred, referable to, and and being committed I think is honestly in my opinion, the most important thing. I certainly believe in my business that it's important.
And I try to be referable and do a good job. [00:47:00] So this is about how to ask for referrals. Who do you ask for referrals? Generally friends are good. And that's why it's important in your personal relationships to be hopefully honest and a good person and display the sorts of characteristics that make you referable.
This is again, the little talk about everybody knows about 250 people. They could possibly refer them to a job and and that can be helpful knowing what kind of employer you want and how you're gonna get the right kind of referrals. And then you also wanna know things like the employer's location, what industry they're in and you wanna know how to target your employer and and and all sorts of things.
Regional contact. So I get requests all the time for people and some people love getting referrals. That makes 'em feel very special. So sometimes in this business group, I'm in there's people from different parts of the country and people will contact me sometimes and they'll be like, I'm coming to Los Angeles.
What restaurant should I go to? I'm happy to give a referral, but people really feel good about getting a referral and then will say I got a referral from this person and so forth. So again, you need. [00:48:00] Try to get contacts and different things. Some people like contacts and especially when you're looking for different types of jobs it's a good idea to many times understand when you try to understand the types of employers you're looking for, it's important to find different types of things and you can use law crossing indeed and so forth to find different employers.
And lemme see here. Yeah. And then again, the whole idea is the more people you tell you're looking for a job are that are aware, you're looking for a job. The more those people can potentially help you give you referrals and so forth. And and again, customers so they can help you neighbors, same thing.
I've talked about that religious people, religious services and so forth. And and In any group that has a shared interest in you. These people can all help you and then social organizations and so forth, and then leaders in your community and all that sort of thing. It's always good to have a relationship of people know that are considered leaders in your industry because they often have a lot of access to a lot of opportunities.
And the more those kind of people you meet and impress the [00:49:00] better off you're gonna be. And then again, I talked about newspapers and so forth and those people, and then of course just people that you meet in the grocery store, the, even the cashiers and other people can be helpful.
And so there is an article that I've done about this and but the one thing that I would just say is, how do you set the stage for a referral? I think the best way is really to, to just make sure that in most cases that you're seeing out there and and that really can can make a big difference.
And and then being excited about what you do if you stick out. If you think about most Most people that are really good at something they're just very committed to one thing and they're and that's what makes 'em referable and and it's like that for pretty much everything.
And and being passionate I think is really important. And then it often just staying in touch with people taking people out to eat is often a good idea. That's one of the things people do just meeting and is constantly kind of setting things up.
And then the way I think the most important way when you ask for a referral is many times especially if you're looking for a job is not just approaching people and [00:50:00] saying. I'm looking for a job. Do you have one or do you know anyone? That's one way to do it, but another way is to make contact with people ask them about themselves see how they're doing let them talk about themselves.
And if they ever ask about you then just tell them what you're doing and not directly just saying that, and I'm, I'm like my job, but I certainly might be open to something new or I got laid off or I'm looking for a position or I'm just getting outta law school. I'm looking for a position how did you find your position?
What did you do, or that's often very helpful. Another thing that that I like, and there's a lot of articles about this and a lot of law schools promote it and I think they're doing the right thing doing so is just doing informal interviews. So if someone's very successful in your industry, you can often go and just ask them for an informal interview.
So you can say I'd like to interview you about what you do is that possible? And I did that when I was in law school, I did this I spent a semester. Working for not working, but just doing a research project for a a well known professor. He is no longer alive, [00:51:00] but Jeffrey O'Connell, but he it was a tourist professor and I was interested in what personal injury attorneys do.
So I literally spent a semester driving around the country and talking on the phone and so forth and talking to different personal injury attorneys in different cities. And just asking them if I could interview them about what they do. And they were all very open and happy to talk to me. I couldn't believe it, how, I was going into the office of some of the most well known personal injury attorneys in the country.
And so that to me was very interesting that just that's networking how easy it is and. It's very easy to network that way and do informational interviews. And so you can often interview that way now you, I don't, wouldn't recommend if you are wanna work in a if you're coming, if working in personal injury law, and you're at a small firm and you're at the bottom of your class at a horrible law school, I don't think going into a, the largest law firm in the world is going to lead to anything.
But when you when you go in there, it could, you could tell the person why I'm interested in getting started on the ground floor and corporate law. And now I'm doing this type of work. You have [00:52:00] any how would you do it if you were me? I realized I've never worked in this firm. And those people can often refer things to you.
So that's one of the ways to do it. And and then again, building information about people that you know is important. And then often when people are referring people to you always speaking very positively of them and and you're asking 'em for that sort of information. And I think hypothe