Should You Give Up Your Law Firm Job Search?

Transcript

[00:00:00] Today's presentation is it's actually a pretty important one because, a lot of people end up giving up on their searches and when they give up, what that means is that, instead of continuing with their search or whatever, they're looking for, they.

[00:00:15]quit and many quit the practice of law. And it's something that I see quite a bit  others, may settle for something that they don't necessarily have to. that's kinda what this is about today. And, what I'm gonna do is I'll talk about this topic, which is in my opinion, one of the most important topics for people.

[00:00:31] And then, after that, I will, take as many questions as everyone has today. Okay. the first thing is when I was 16 senior sold, I lived in Bangkok,  a kind of a 12 story building. And it was a very nice building, but, it had one, apartment per floor and, it was occupied, almost exclusively by, people from, other countries.

[00:00:51] So it wasn't tight people. It was by, people working in kind of in foreign know foreigners working there. And, one setter afternoon. I came down, [00:01:00] to the lab, to the lobby of the apartment. And, there was, there were a few guards and they were playing with the small puppy and the puppy was going up to everyone and trying to make friends.

[00:01:08] I started playing with the puppy too, and there was no sign of a mother or anything around. And, I took them to the, my apartment and try and gave him some milk and. he was very excited and he was too excited to actually eat. And then all he wanted to do was like, playing close to me and so forth.

[00:01:24] I think he thought even as a puppy, that I was adopting him and that he found a new home and after an hour or two inside, they had to put them back outside with the guards. And, when I left the puppy and tried to follow me and so forth inside, and it was very sad.

[00:01:40]and then a Monday morning, a couple of days later I went downstairs and to go to school and, the puppy was out there waiting and he ran up to me and then he tried to, follow me to school and, the guards kept them  they came home from school and I probably was there again and try to follow me to the elevator.

[00:01:55] And, he did this for a few days and then finally he realized that he [00:02:00] wasn't coming with me and. a day later, a day or so later, I noticed there was another English family there that, they started playing with the puppy too. finally, people said that the dog wasn't allowed in the complex, so they made them stay outside the Gates  then he would stand outside there and, people would still feed them and stuff.

[00:02:15] But, he started wandering the streets. as he as time went by, the puppy got bigger obviously. And, he looked, he started looking like a street dog  I would see him, when I was outside and, but he would stop, he'd stop acknowledging me.

[00:02:29] then he stopped spending time around the gate. And then, one of the last times I saw him, I hadn't seen him in a few months. She. Actually growled and showed us to anyone that's I from near him. And, he's, he no longer was friendly.  then I made the summer a couple more times and take a scratch and look like you've been fighting and so forth.

[00:02:46]so he turned into kind of a main street dog and obviously had I let him in and, he'd been happy and so forth that wouldn't have been the case.  I actually felt very bad and, I, there were all sorts of excuses of reasons that we've put [00:03:00] in the top term, from my family that, cause I wouldn't let all this loud scream home and apartment and so forth.

[00:03:06]and I just, obviously couldn't adopt a dog and, the history of kinda where this dog is, it's sad. he, he was, and I saw him, he was, then he, there was no one to take care of them. he's on the streets has to worry about getting hit by cars and motorcycles, mainly and trucks and.

[00:03:21]find a place to sleep at night  probably, at some point may have been caught by a dog catcher and put down. I don't know, but he just did not have a good life, from what had happened to him and, something, I always felt bad for and guilty for cause.

[00:03:35]when you have an experience like that, you realize that you have the ability to change the license of a feature and, it can either be very bad or can be very good.  it's like that with people too. if people have somebody that wants us and so forth, we're always going to be far better off than we don't, people that, love and take care of us or, having, a, an employer to take contribute to.

[00:03:57]and having a purpose beyond ourselves makes us happy. [00:04:00] dogs, enjoy, barking at strangers and that sort of thing.  keeping in being nice to their masters and, they enjoy that. And, it makes them happy and they have a purpose  the fact that this puppy didn't find a home, which is the whole point of this and.

[00:04:15] If he'd had a home, he would have been happy and we would've had a very good life was, he just picked the wrong house. It was completely random. he picked up a building that was, filled with foreigners that couldn't, take them home with them. he picked an apartment building where, you know, street dogs to roam and who couldn't roam and, it was just wasn't the right place.

[00:04:33] And you probably stuck around too long for. a long time, as you grew up. And, if he'd given, if he, not, settle about these 12 families or whatever, it's a place to take them in. he might've actually found a place where, somebody would have taken care of them and you would have had a really good life, but, unfortunately, the whatever reason he was at that apartment, just didn't work out.

[00:04:57] because of that, he probably lived a lot shorter [00:05:00] of a life and went through a lot more pain than he normally would have had to. the thing is like many people when they're confronted with challenges, he didn't keep trying, he became better. he became angry and he gave up and, people take it street dogs all the time and, especially puppies and.

[00:05:18]you have to ask yourself, how much sense does it make, to stop trying and become bitter and angry. Does it make sense to do that? Or does it make sense to, keep trying, but a lot of people, attorneys included, at all levels, it doesn't matter, how good your experiences, it doesn't matter.

[00:05:35]where you started, a lot of people get better. Angry and sad. And they give up in their job searches and they give up on what they believe that they may have been able to achieve when they started their careers. personally I can tell from this attorney that's from this puppy's body language and he started to give up, he would run to me, but he wouldn't run like in an excited way.

[00:05:55] Like initially, like when he realized, when he thought I was going to take him back stairs and the [00:06:00] toughie. He would be very excited, but then he would slow down, as time went by and he realized, he was, he would stalk outside the Gates and, look very sad  I think he was realizing very slowly, that he wouldn't have a home.

[00:06:12] And, first he tried very hard, it didn't give up. and he tried and when he realized that it wasn't working with me, he tried with other people and with the guards and stuff in the building and. And then he stopped trying and became sad. when you saw things, weren't working for him the way he wanted it to become sad.

[00:06:29] And, he didn't really know what he had done wrong and he felt bad about it. And instead of, trying to be happy, he actually, gave up and didn't feel as excited at all anymore.  then, after sadness became anger, he became mad at the world. he knew he had given everything he had of himself and tried as hard as he could.

[00:06:49]but when it didn't work for him, he became angry and he was angry at me. Like he growled at me and, he became angry at the people that would formerly reject to him, And so when you [00:07:00] think about it, like the, everyone has a need to contribute and that need is, we need to find acceptance and attorneys that are seeking jobs, have a need to contribute.

[00:07:11]they need to sign, people that they can work with  find, people that will accept them and help support them as well, and that they can contribute to. And, the puppy is no different than a child, who doesn't find acceptance in school, kids that, don't find acceptance in school, and don't perform well there.

[00:07:27]may perform poorer academically, then we'll get in with the wrong kids. And pretty soon they may stop trying or, other people become criminals. And, this happens to a lot of people. people feel rejected and they rebel and, their lives go in different directions. And when I saw that, certainly when I was, young about kids that, given up academically what happened to them, it's not a good situation for a lot of people.

[00:07:49] Yes. when I began my career in this business, like working with attorneys, I, I quickly noticed that, there were certain types of attorneys who had a difficult time position, [00:08:00]  you may be in that role right now, or if you're not now, you may be in the future and hopefully not, but most attorneys are at different points in their careers.

[00:08:07] Have a hard time finding a position, at least the plan of position that they want. And, every attorney wants homes. even young attorneys that are coming out of school or have just graduated from school, make, graduated in a bad market where it started difficult to find jobs.

[00:08:21]people that are trying to work here from different countries may have a hard time finding jobs, older attorneys that have too much experience may have a hard time finding jobs. If you're in the wrong practice here in the wrong market, you may have a hard time finding jobs.  it's can be difficult and the job you're, getting a job gives you an identity.

[00:08:39]it gives you a page, not going to group, just a dog with a home, gets an identity and they get food and they get, a pack to hang out with, which are the people. And, lots of people when they lose jobs. And when they feel, why are they not getting the sort of acceptance their peers are getting?

[00:08:53] If they can't find a job, why aren't they. W what's happening, why aren't they, w why don't people [00:09:00] want to hire them and what's wrong.  they may try and do everything they can to get the position, but, the world is just not, opening up as quickly as they want, for them, or I may not open up at all.

[00:09:10]that could be, devastating to people and very difficult. And you may get sad or you may get angry or. but people react in different ways to do things. early in my career, I would always come across, attorneys in the course of my work that were, and I still do, but, when early in my career, when I would come across as attorneys having a difficult time finding position, I would invite them into my office, and talk to them.

[00:09:33] And in some cases, I wouldn't even fly them across the country to meet with me.  if they weren't working, I would, put them up in a hotel room for a night or two and work with them. And one of the reasons I did that, is because I wanted, to see, what was wrong and what could be done, because most of them felt, a tremendous amount of, very upset about not getting a job.

[00:09:53] And it's very difficult. many times they were, they had lost enthusiasm and that's the worst thing is when [00:10:00] people lose enthusiasm like that enthusiasm is what you need in order to get a position in the building, not to give up and the building, not to settle, when the going gets rough, because, people work into their own, the legal profession into their eighties.

[00:10:12] And so the idea of giving up, in your early twenties or mid twenties or. Late twenties or even thirties or forties. This is insane when you think about it because, the people that win are the people that stay in the game. But,  in many cases, when I would meet these attorneys, I would find things, that might turn off law firms.

[00:10:29] so I'm just going to go through some of those things right now. and then I'm going to talk a little bit more, with a little more hope about what can be done, but. I'm going to tell you about some of the things that law firms may not like, or that they were having problems with and what was going on.

[00:10:43] So here are some reasons that attorneys typically don't get jobs. one reason is they just don't lack. They lack a lot of self-confidence. And so if you walk into a law firm and you clearly lack self-confidence, a client, that has a problem, regardless of if it's a company or an individual.

[00:10:59][00:11:00] they need their attorney to be confident. the attorney needs to come across as, someone that can be an authority and take control and tell them what to do. And if they can't, then, law firms, aren't going to like that. And that's just one of those, that's one reason.

[00:11:14]if you don't have self-confidence, you need to work on it. If you're a member of, or, we have some, I don't know, stuff about self-confidence and self hypnosis and stuff, and, in the, in there, and then you can, download and I can help you, but, self-confidence is very important for Chinese  if you don't have it or the law firm doesn't think you have it, then, they're gonna back away.

[00:11:34] And so you need to have, self-confidence. And, that needs to come across and not for all positions or certainly certain types of positions where, you may not need it, if people feel you can get pushed around, that means that the opposite, the other side is going to be able to push you around and.

[00:11:49]cause every attorney is typically adverse to someone else. And whether it's in a negotiation or litigation, so you just need to have the ability to stick up for yourself. And that's a big reason that people don't get [00:12:00] jobs. Other people are just, very nerdy now there's nothing wrong with me, nerding, frankly, almost every attorney's the nerd to some extent.

[00:12:07] But, law firms definitely like smart people, but, you need to come up with as, having some social skills to some extent, you want to have a decent handshake, you want to be able to make eye contact with people be somewhat extroverted.

[00:12:20]it doesn't have to be that extrovert, but you need to. be able to connect with different types of people because clients, are, need to be connected with and other attorneys in an office you can be connected with. if somebody, wants to interview you, then they're going to expect you to, be, not that nerdy and I've come across lots of attorneys that had self-confidence issues.

[00:12:37]if you go into an interview and you tell them you're worried about doing well in an interview. If you don't do well in interviews, that's gonna be bad. So you go into a interview and you're, looking down and making eye contact, not talking loud there, Just different things you need to do, to come across. And those are just personal things you need to work out. And that doesn't mean you can't find a job. there's all sorts of places. where if you lack a lot of self-confidence and you're very nerdy, you can [00:13:00] do well. one of them would be a clerkship with a federal judge.

[00:13:02] You could do that your entire career and make a very good living and you can do all sorts of jobs if you have those two issues. And there's nothing wrong with that. Everyone's a different type of person, but these are recent people. Typically don't get jobs in law firms and you can be nerdy and get a job in a law firm.

[00:13:16] But, there's people that will work only with one attorney and they won't go to court and they'll do all the writing and. No, you can. And they won't, there's just different types of jobs for different types of people, but I'm just talking about the main reasons people aren't getting jobs.

[00:13:30]some people just in interviews that come across as interested in our thing. the resumes look like they want to do something else. So sometimes people will, have all sorts of other experiences, unrelated to working in a law firm or, or they'll have all sorts of stuff on their resume, but how much pro bono work they do in each law firm or they'll, they'll do all sorts of different practice areas  if your resume doesn't look like you want to be there.

[00:13:55] Then the law firm, no law firm is going to be interested in hiring you because they're going to know that you're likely to [00:14:00] leave. your resume definitely needs to look. like that's what you're interested in is whatever the law firms offering  the other thing too is, if you're coming from a huge firm, like a very prestigious firm and you want to go to work at a very small firm, That may not as be as prestigious.

[00:14:14]the law firm typically, is going to think that you're probably not going to be interested in them. So they're not going to interview you or unless you have a good way to, convince them. So I look at resumes by the way, all the time of people that just look like they're interested in other things.

[00:14:28] And so a lot of times when I look at resumes with BCG, I can tell immediately that the person's interested in doing something else. I don't think they're going to be a good fit for a law firm. That's usually in their best interest. sometimes people would just look like, they could be bad hires  that means that it'd be difficult to be managed.

[00:14:43]it's a bad idea typically to put all sorts of political stuff on your resume because. even if you're like, say you're a Democrat and put stuff on there. there's different types of Democrats. there's, moderate Democrats and there's far left Democrats and there's.

[00:14:57]far left Democrats. And if you put far left [00:15:00] and you're applying to affirm with Democrats that aren't far left, there's just all sorts of things. Same thing with the Republicans and other groups. the more you have, any type of, political stuff on your resume, that makes it look like.

[00:15:11]you have issues, but, interest, I guess that they're, they may, be, against hiring. just bad ideas. So you need to, tone some of that time. And people don't want people that look like, they're going to make trouble. So the law firms will avoid that other things that will look like a bad hire would be, if you've had a lot of jobs in a short period of time,  and other people are just unprepared to speak with law firms.

[00:15:34]they say the wrong things and cover letters and they don't answer questions correctly or, they give the wrong answers. They assume firms are looking for, different things, I mean like a junior associate going and talking about how they want to build a huge book of business immediately is probably not a good idea because.

[00:15:48]the law firms, wants them to be workers and soldiers and not, people that are, doing that at that point in their career. And some are just, awkward or, don't understand what the firm does. I've seen people [00:16:00] go into firms with, the do only one practice here and talk about how they want to do another practice here.

[00:16:04] So you just have to be prepared for that. And, but the thing that I would say with all these people that couldn't get jobs, and this was the important point. all this was fixable. you can, almost every attorney can adjust and become the person that they want to, and, can change.

[00:16:20]it's very funny to me. It's just where I live. I lived in, Malibu and there's these people, come here and then they there's a look. They become like hipsters or something. I dunno what it is, but. There's doctors and stuff that move here and they show up like complete nerds and then they just change.

[00:16:36]they start dressing differently. it's just, it's very funny. And then they w they become like these kind of cool looking people. And I guess it's, the people would just pick stuff up and anybody can change. And so you can become, whoever you can prepare the better prepared for interviews, you can do all sorts of things.

[00:16:53]and most of this stuff was fixable. But, in a few rare cases, I would meet the attorneys and [00:17:00] they were just a hundred percent not suited to practicing law. And I knew they weren't going to be able to get a job in a law firm.  I'm, unfortunately I have a very big heart.

[00:17:08]and so I would hire these people, to work for me because I wanted to, they were smart. I saw the value in them and I didn't like the fact that. they may not have been suited and I wanted to give them a home. And, it's almost, maybe it's from that experience with a puppy, I don't know, but I'm giving you some, know background, but I would hire these people and I would, try to help them develop and become self-confident  have a good place to work.

[00:17:31] So one of my early hires was, just a very brilliant guy that graduated from Columbia law school and. she'd done well there, but he'd never gotten a position, in a major law, in a law firm. and, I believe it was 2000 or something. I'm not sure it might've been later than that.

[00:17:48]and he came across my desk. he was very nerdy and just, in a way, the, the, almost like a movie type nerd with the glasses and. if they would break, he would take them up he was, and I liked him a lot [00:18:00] and he wanted to be a corporate attorney and only a corporate attorney.

[00:18:03]and, this was in October of 2000, I believe, or 2001 maybe. And, the corporate market in California had just completely exploded. it was just, imploded. I'm sorry, because of. A.com explosion. So there was no work. there was absolutely nothing. and not even if he had, been a fourth or fifth year coming from, a top New York firm, would he have been able to get any interest?

[00:18:26] There was just nothing, out there. And, he was, interesting guy. Like he was interested in things like computer games and playing theaters and. but a nice guy.  so I explained to them, that if he wanted to, get a position, you'd have to look at doing litigation, which I knew probably wouldn't work out for him.

[00:18:44]I don't think he would've been a good litigator or another practice here. He probably wouldn't go to tax and a couple of, risks, things. But, you told me that, he went to Columbia law school, he was qualified to work in a large law firm and he'd be happy. Practicing litigation didn't believe he was a good fit.

[00:18:58]he also said his parents were [00:19:00] in Los Angeles and grown up there. he had an apartment there and, was not interested, and looking elsewhere. And, I told him that, because he didn't have any experience and we've never had a job in a law firm, that, or any job really on the legal profession, that a law firm, wouldn't be interested in hiring a recruiter and.

[00:19:18]and so what I did is I, helped him apply to, every large law firm in Los Angeles. And then, several hundred medium sized firms, LA is a huge market by the way. there's thousands of law firms and almost every big markets like that. But, so many maybe applied to a couple hundred firms in Los Angeles in total,  I knew this was, unlikely to go anywhere. And I told him that, but I had him work on letters and I had him, send them all out and, mail answer by the way, very effective if you're going into the right practice or at the right time in this particular case.  it wasn't something, and then, and while working on an application read responses, they offered him to come in to my office.

[00:19:56] And so he would sit [00:20:00] right. I had an extra desk in my office  he would sit right next to me. And if you haven't known the history of the VCG attorney search name, it's actually called barrister consulting group. And it was based on, anyway, the name was changed, shortly after that, but, in a bearish officer's typically like a trainee and they train and that's one of the ways and they sit right in the office and they listen it's before.

[00:20:21] And so I modeled everything on that, which I thought was fun. but I had them set, in my office and, next to me and he got to listen to me, talking to corporate attorneys and, there was no work and I believe that was helping encouraging him. that wasn't his fault for not getting a job.

[00:20:37]and I tried to get him to look at other markets, but he refused to. And, but as the days went by, he started getting very nervous. He asked me why I heard anything from firms and. You know why he was just getting rejection letters and why no one was interviewing him.  at the time, like there was, the market was very bad and.

[00:20:54]after this.com explosion, especially in California, like all these attorneys were flocking in the market and people [00:21:00] weren't able to get jobs.  I'd gotten, moved to Los Angeles by doing a mass mailing. And I realized that it was very effective.  I, so I started a company, that actually did nothing, but.

[00:21:09]help people send out letters. And it grew into very quickly, and it became, pretty soon there were like 20, 30 people working there and, we had to set up all these computers and build computers and. Lots of printers high-speed printers and we're working on a lot of data and, finding people are doing research  he had an interest in programming.

[00:21:28] So we had database as a program and, so within a year or so, he was making over $120,000 a year, which. 20 years ago it's very good money. it was more than, as it's a lot of money  much as Splott firms and, but he wasn't happy.  even though he hadn't was doing a good job with his career, he was actually having a career, working with me.

[00:21:48]he, knew that he'd been sorta hired at a sympathy  that I wanted to help him and. and, despite this opportunity, he still, felt like he needed to work in a law firm. And, I [00:22:00] encouraged him to keep applying to law firms because over time the market actually changed and then corporate came very strongly again.

[00:22:05] And, but I think being rejected after. being, side beta Kappa and all this stuff from a major college and going to Columbia law school. And then, not being able to get a job was just too much. He was upset  I think Polish rejection from his letters from, firms that didn't, couldn't imagine even a Columbia law school first and working with them, it's just too much for him.

[00:22:26]and he had just given up but he just felt this need to be around law firms. And so what he did is he started, Moonlight, building computers for law firms and, helping doing networking and computers and so forth. And I think, part of him, I don't know why it was law firms that he was doing this jobs for, but I think he might've done work for one law firm, somehow that he met through someone and then they were thrown at other law firms.

[00:22:50] And I almost felt he had this fantasy that. one of these law firms was going to appreciate the computer work. He was doing so much and they were going to offer him a [00:23:00] job. And so he started spending all this time as an attorney, not what they were hiring him for the computer stuff.

[00:23:06]and then, so he started doing all this work for these law firms  then he started showing up at the opposite noon, and then pretty soon he'd start arriving at two in the afternoon. And then pretty soon it was five in the afternoon. and I keep getting worn in him, to come in at a normal hour.

[00:23:20] And, but he just wouldn't do it. he just couldn't do it. And, I think, part of him might've been trying to you to my health, and another part, my, or did not need my help. And I think another part of, I really wanted to work in a law firm and eventually I let them go and I was like, I just can't, I can't rely on you if you're not even going to be here by.

[00:23:40]five or six or, or after I go home. And then, and then I, I felt sorry and I actually called them up and I said, why don't you come back and we'll talk about it. and be here at two or something. And then, he showed up late at two 30 and I was like, this is ridiculous, but, the thing is what I want to bring it up with him that I think is that as important as. he just [00:24:00] wasn't happy. I think when he realized it, wasn't going to have a home in the law firm, he started going downhill. I could see it. He just, he wasn't himself.

[00:24:07]and, when you started working for me, even though he wasn't, he had this kind of, hopefully it was gonna work in a law firm and he'd start coming in these suits from Sears, which, didn't look great, but it was nice.

[00:24:18]cause he was the only person in our office wearing a suit and and then he just started letting himself go, became very thin a skin broke out and he was nervous. And this was over the point, this was over a period of, maybe four weeks or six weeks when all this happened.

[00:24:31] the other thing that was interesting is during that time, before I figured out how good he was with computers  all this sort of thing, I tried to give him some legal work and. and it wasn't very sophisticated, legal work. It might've been like, contracts, the law firms or something, I don't remember.

[00:24:45] But, he was so excited, he would just, beam when he was doing this work and it was what he wanted to do.  then he kept asking for legal work, but I didn't have anything for him to do.  I think that, made him sad. and then, kind of him.

[00:24:57]I looked him up recently and he's [00:25:00] no longer a member of the bar. And, the only thing I could find on him was, some expire, fictional name thing for, but his computer business. And so I don't know what's happened to him, but, that to me, can show us, what happens when people give up, because he certainly, had he stayed in the game.

[00:25:16]would have gotten the job and there was no reason for him to quit. he was able to make money working for me, but he should have taken, not taken the rejection that he had so seriously. And, I kept going, it wasn't his fault. He was trying to get a job in the wrong practice, Sarah, for one.

[00:25:33] the wrong time. And also he was trying to, he, wasn't willing to look at other practice areas, all sorts of things you could have done. he could have, gone back to school for an LLM in tax. They want to do that and you could have applied to other markets and he would've gotten a job and he could have learned, from the stuff that we were doing.

[00:25:51] But instead he, tried to do something else and to meet outside.  at the same time, there were other people, that I brought into my office, when this [00:26:00] mailing business started, which was called legal authority. And, there was a girl off from Los Angeles, had gone to Boston university.

[00:26:06]for law school, she had gone to a really good college in Los Angeles and, she wanted to work in LA as well.  she did a big mailing,  I helped her do that. And, while she was, waiting for the mailing, dispute, you know what happened. she actually didn't, get a very positive response and I don't know if it was, the reason, but it was the same thing that she hadn't gotten a lot of experience or from experience in law school but she checks, she was a very positive person and, had a lot of good, qualities  initially she actually didn't get a positive response and I think she got some interviews, but.

[00:26:39] I don't know that those, went through and, she had some issues, maybe with, her kind of her self-confidence, but she was pretty solid. and I, became friends with her and I realized that, she was distraught for not having the position. And it was the same thing.

[00:26:53] Like I gave her some legal assignments too, that I had,  she seemed very excited about doing the work, but I am come work for her to [00:27:00] do either.  and she became, what was called employment advocate, which basically means she was talking to people on the phone  their job searches  when it came time for Purdue to another mailing to law firms, she didn't want to do it.

[00:27:11]and meanwhile, she was seeing, hundreds of people get jobs with a service cause she was helping them. but I don't think she wanted to do, the same thing. And then, at some point she. fairly early on, and working there, she started an affair, with a guy that was engaged in our office and, it started being very flirtatious with different people in the office.

[00:27:32]and in one house that one time actually, I woke up that 10th, or I dunno, pretty late at night. And she was at my door,  and then just, different things, that she could, that were, that showed, she was acting out, just being a little, hitting on people and that sort of thing.

[00:27:47] She probably shouldn't have been. And, yeah, so that was sad. And, I think in the mood to go out to drink too much, one time she got in a fight with a security guard  then, and I couldn't be [00:28:00] friends with her anymore and, but I didn't fire her or anything.

[00:28:02] And she was doing well in their job and actually was making over a hundred thousand dollars a year to, because she was so good at her job, but she was just really acting out. And eventually, I think this downward spiral discontinued  about a year after starting, she, she apparently had started using crystal meth  then would sleep.

[00:28:21]for work for days and then sleep for days and started dating a Tepsco gang member. that would show up in our lobby, sometimes during the work day and I took to ask them to leave, but that wasn't good.  then when he didn't, we wasn't allowed to do that.

[00:28:36] He was staring outside our office  the second I heard about are there, should we be using this, drug and so forth? I had her supervisor let her go.  then the boyfriend started threatening some of our employees and the company, that she thought she'd slept with.

[00:28:49] I don't know if they all did.  that just wasn't a good situation, but the reason I bring all this up, she, her parents put in rehab and she got better. and today [00:29:00] she's actually a freelance makeup artist  married, and happy I believe, but the reason I think the story is so sad is because, this person went off the rails and I don't think that would have happened if she had gotten a job.

[00:29:13] And I don't think that any of this would have happened. Had she, work, not giving up her job search  I don't think she would be a makeup artist today. I think she actually would have been a very good attorney and. it all was just priming and it was, the thing is she didn't apply to enough places and she got rejected and then her didn't realize that, you have to continue.

[00:29:33] And so one thing that I do in this business, with all my candidates at decent G is I make sure that I, no one that comes in and uses our company. I never give up on people. Like I keep finding new places for them. I keep, marketing and following up. And because I believe that, not everyone, can get a job.

[00:29:54]you can find the right place. This guy could have gotten a job. And also the girl could have gotten a job  they all gave [00:30:00] up and, maybe I paid them too much. I don't know. but I wanted. No I wanted them to do well. I wanted them to get jobs. I wanted them to be happy and, I try to take care of people and, it's a weakness, but, at the same time, giving up is crazy.

[00:30:16] There's no reason to give up on a job search. Both of those people could have been great attorneys  again, stopping something and the ages are in your twenties. That you could be doing for an over a half century longer is insane. It's also insane to stop when you're 60, because you can do it for another 20 years, which is a long time.

[00:30:36] So you just can't give up. You can't allow this rejection because. It messes with people, and it's it. Doesn't , it makes you become, less than you could be. Like if the puppy had not given up, and found and kept trying, he could have found a home property and steady got angry and on Mangi and if the guy hadn't given up his job search, he, he wouldn't be, [00:31:00] driving around the Valley and, servicing law firms or, installing, Ms.

[00:31:03] Dos or installing board processing programs on their computers. And, it's just, it's this woman wouldn't be doing freelance makeup work and it's just, it's been stupid. It makes me mad because of the market out there. So huge. You just can't give up, on your job search and yeah. And the guy who runs the computer business, the last time I could just working alone and.

[00:31:24] Running the business out of his apartment.  as you might expect, he should, these people remind me of this puppy would have been much happier, had been given them. both are working out of their houses and, not relying on anyone for support, and maybe they're afraid to rely on other people.

[00:31:39] I don't know. But, I don't like that any of that happened, and in both cases, both of these people, you're going to find a bomb initially. So they, they sent out mailings, they came to me for help. I tried to help them and dead, and they wanted someone to help them.

[00:31:53]and, they, then when they were unable to find a job to become sad, they let themselves go, started, the girls started [00:32:00] acting appropriately, and then they, both of them, actually ended up sabotaging the success they were having with me. and then I became angry. a woman became he just drugs.

[00:32:10]we've got a dangerous boyfriend. and what was interesting about that is this is not the kind of person, that you would expect to have a dangerous boyfriend when she went to college and. Did well there and was the kind of person that was, on all these honors with me, I don't know, all this, very positive things.

[00:32:27] And then, to be data in a gang member, of it spreading to kill everyone around her. And then that's, was pretty crazy. it's just not normal. So I have another your story, and, I'm sorry to tell these stories, but I. I have a lot of them, and I certainly, could, tell more, but, I'll just tell one more, but I want you to see that, if you're thinking about giving up, you're not alone and it doesn't make sense to give up, especially if you're very talented.

[00:32:53]and the guy of course, stopped doing his job and he felt more secure and happier helping loss. I'm sure the computers, one [00:33:00] of the group is on independence. the quick story, there's another woman, actually, they went to Harvard law school and I placed her at Skadden Arps in Los Angeles.

[00:33:07] when she lost her job there, I tried to help her find another job. and she actually gave up very quickly. She applied to like less than 10 firms, and, because of her background. And then, when she didn't get the job she wanted, she, refused, and didn't want him to keep going with their search.

[00:33:23] at the time she'd been going through divorce was unhappy and had all sorts of issues. And, with only 10 firms to work with, I really, there wasn't much I could do. And, so I, really couldn't do much for her, either, with her. but, I tried to help her find another job.

[00:33:40] And then when one thing that happened with her, it's interesting. Someone close to her one day comment because they knew I was working with her, and told me she was using drugs.  I guess hard drugs like crystal meth again.  she would, stop by my office and, I try to help her with her resume cover letter, but she just wasn't making any sense.

[00:33:58] then, she started reading some drugs and, [00:34:00] it became pretty bad Baton and shoot. her hair was mad at, or keep her stain, there's, pockmarks on her scan. It didn't smell too good. And, spoke about stuff that, sounded ridiculous.

[00:34:11] And one of the last times I saw her, she brought out another kind of angry tattoo boyfriend with her, with huge biceps and so forth into my office. The size of my thighs moves huge and he was equally medicine. So yeah. You know what happened to her is, she went off the deep end.

[00:34:26]she couldn't, she took not getting those, she'd done very well in college and law school  then, and then, and then found someone else, that kind of reflect your anger towards a world in which she was very upset when she couldn't get a job.

[00:34:37]she's actually better now, and doing very well. but yeah. the idea is that, people, take, rejection from, the legal market and not getting something is just much more serious. And the need to, the girl from Scott and Arps was just, nonsensical that she was taking it so seriously, but, it may have had a bad experience, the guy who gave up from Columbia law school, that was [00:35:00] just a huge mistake.

[00:35:00]he worked in a big. company, in law school and attached to you liked it. And, he could have gone and gotten an L on the tax law and he should have applied to firms all over California. and maybe he could have tried to do a different, practice area where she should have been, but you just shouldn't be given up.

[00:35:14]that's crazy. you don't have that kind of illegal town do that well and yell, SATs and everything when you're not the email and you don't give up.  he's just not practicing law. it's crazy. I don't like it. And the girl from Boston university shouldn't have given up.

[00:35:27]she sent out some letters and, received some initial rejections and then. got upset and she had everything going for her. She was very attractive and a very good personnel issues, extremely smart, and could have done very well, but she gave up and she became angry and lashed out. same thing with a girl from Harvard law school.

[00:35:45]she lost her position there and she may have been fired, I believe, which is not a big deal. people get fired and she decided that, her ego was in control and there was only about 10 firms. She could work out and. and then when that didn't work out, she was very offended and, [00:36:00] I'd be lying if I said I hadn't seen the sing a lot.

[00:36:02]I see it all the time. I have more stories like this and I can count. And that's why I'm talking to you today. It's just because, I don't know why people give up and I probably should have given examples of older people and people in that at the beginning of their careers, but, the people at the beginning of their careers were off on the SAS because there's just so much time in learning and things and to give up.

[00:36:21] So earliest is just loony. you should never give up. And, there's people that I've told that to, I don't know, 15, 20 years ago that have come back and said, thank you so much. I was about ready to give up and I hope, you don't give up and you don't have certainly have to come back and say, thank you.

[00:36:36] But. I don't give up. It's crazy. it's just, it doesn't make sense. One attorney I hired to help, and we try to help them this. I don't keep telling the story and I'll tell you one more, I guess it was, one of the youngest graduates in the history of UC Berkeley law school and, he had a breakdown and, wasn't able to get hired.

[00:36:56]and I tried to help him find a position. when I could not, I hired, [00:37:00] yeah, I'm sorry to break down when he couldn't get hired.  it was the same sort of thing. So I brought him in to work  then I paid him, a very good salary and.

[00:37:08]and instead of appreciating this, he decided while I was not working, I'm not working for a law firm and it's not the same. And therefore I can leave at five every day because I'm in house and so forth. And, I didn't, and he made some other mistakes that weren't good.

[00:37:23]and then when I let him go, he became very angry and started posting things online and so forth. then he resigned from the bar and, started traveling the world and living in third world beach communities, instead of trying to find another job. And it was the same thing, he had enthusiasm and sadness and anger, and it was someone else that I tried to help get a job that didn't get one.

[00:37:43]and, when he did a mainland, cause he only wanted to be corporate and only want to do large law firms and the timing wouldn't have been right.  when I represent someone looking for a job and, obviously I don't represent, a lot of people, personally, the people that I do represent, you can do the same thing on your own and you don't [00:38:00] need to represent you.

[00:38:01]what I do is I do everything I possibly can to get these people a job. I. I search every opening. I look at old openings. I, I find places that are interested in those types of attorneys, an ongoing basis. And it's exhausting. we just set up really a weekend and I literally, I spent, almost the entire weekend and I would get up at five and they worked, all weekend, working on lists and stuff for people and, just trying to make sure I was exhausting the market.

[00:38:24] And if you were. if you're one of my candidates, I'm sure you got, some stuff from me this weekend. So the point is I do that all the time because I don't want people to not get a job. So I'm looking everywhere. I possibly can. this morning I sent a, email, a text to everyone I'm working with.

[00:38:40]there's several people I'm working with telling them to look at more markets, cause you always want to look at more markets to give yourself an edge and  I do lots of training for people that work here and to make sure that everyone's covering the market  it's important, to find places for people to work.

[00:38:54] And it's important for you to find places to work, because if you don't, you can see what happens. when. [00:39:00] when people don't find that those jobs, they become angry, they become unhappy. They give up and they get angry and it doesn't matter how much money someone has.

[00:39:07] It doesn't matter how well they've done in the past. everybody wants a home and a place to work, and that's one of the things that kind of upsets me.  despite all the work and research and so forth since sending people jobs, several times a week in this company, people, will give up.

[00:39:23]they don't want to apply to more places or they're, they get frustrated  it just happens  it's, and it's sad and there's no reason to give up. the markets here is there's lots and lots of opportunities and all it takes with one.

[00:39:36] And, people believe that everyone should be interested in them. And the thing is that, it's, the law firms are businesses. So they bring you out when they believe that they can make money with you. And that means they need to have enough work and you can't control that. And that means that you need to be at the right place and the right time when they have the budget to hire someone and that's something you can't control and there's all sorts of things you can't control.

[00:39:58]so there's no reason to [00:40:00] give up because of forces that you can't control. The only thing you can control is whether or not you give up and, or whether or not you decide to keep trying. And that's what you should be controlled. And, so many people give up, good attorneys do every single day.

[00:40:13]they. I believe that they should get a great reception and it's not, when you're in law school does a lot of on-campus interviewing. It's not too difficult to get a job if you're in the right market at the right time. And the right, when the market's a certain way, you can get a job and sometimes it can be very easy, but for most attorneys, it's not easy to get a job.

[00:40:31] It's not. it's and it never is. it's, there's so much that goes into it. Even if you're a partner with a huge book of business. there's a lot that goes into it for everyone. So you just can't give up. No one attorney I was working for, with I'm sorry, not long ago, trying to place near tainment attorney had over a million dollars in business and then.

[00:40:49]then all his work stopped, when the least, studios and stuff closed down because of the virus. he had gone to a top law school in Benwell there. And, for 15 years he'd been [00:41:00] building up the, all these relationships and business and the entertainment industry. And then, months, six months with no work, it was too much for him.

[00:41:07] And he gave up. And quit his job. cause he was worried that he might lose his job, even though he, I don't think anybody's going to fire an entertainment attorney when there's no work in the market at all. and then he set up a solo practice and and now he's very nervous and I have initiatives in this marriage.

[00:41:21]a lot of people do when this kind of stuff happens. He's upset, frightened, angry.  he stopped looking for a job and this is, somewhere recently and it's sad. And why? it's, these are forces you can't control and things will come back  it's harder to get a job as a solar than it is, with a big firm.

[00:41:36]interesting thing, attorneys will give up and I think it's because, they don't like rejection and, I've realized that this stage of my life and career that. everyone gets rejection, right? If you look at politicians, they're being attacked, left and right.

[00:41:49] actors and actresses, and, everyone's getting rejected and everyone's getting negative feedback.  people feel like there's something wrong with them or something wrong with a recruiter for getting rejected. I had, [00:42:00] years ago I was, interested in, acting and then that sort of thing and taking classes and it was amazing.

[00:42:05] This, these very successful actors and actresses. we're rejected sometimes thousands of times and they could spend years, driving around LA in a beat up car, going to auditions until they get a part. And then that part leads to something else. And pretty soon they're household names, So you just, you rejection is someone getting rejected for an entertainment role doesn't mean that they're bad, not set out to be an actor, an actress and getting rejected from a law firm is the same thing. you just can't. Or really, and people just don't understand that it's par for the course.

[00:42:36] It's just what happens. And, people aren't rejecting you, but just making business decisions and those business decisions, are based on, a time place, everything.  just that you may not be the right business decision for them. I tell attorneys all the time to look at different markets.

[00:42:51]one example is like New York city is like such a competitive market. Now, if you're there at the right place in the right time, When, you have marketable skills and, you're at a certain [00:43:00] class year and so forth, and it is a very good place to be, it can be a very difficult place to get a job.

[00:43:04]once you have beyond eight years of experience, no business, or if you don't have enough business and there's all sorts of, things that are different about working, trying to work in very large, sophisticated markets than there are. Trying to work in smaller markets. you have to understand that rejection can just be, part of the market.

[00:43:21] So when I was in law school, I, had a  she wanted, her mother wanted us to settle down and live in a suburb outside of Harrisburg called Kim Hill, which is just across the bridge. And she was very wealthy and had. some law firms in town that represented her, money interest, I don't know. And she was also active in politics and she knew attorneys. And, so she, took me to meet some of these attorneys in their offices and wanted me to meet them, which I was happy to do. I actually, I don't know, I was happy to do it, but I did it. cause I went out and and I would walk into these firms and they would just indicate it.

[00:43:57] Yeah, they'd be. willing to hire me if [00:44:00] I wanted a job there because not many people wanted to work in camp Hill, much less, from, big law schools and that sort of thing. And there are top law schools. And so I realized right then, that would have been very easy to work in camp bell, camp Hills, a sleepy community, assessable Hannah river and and it's not.

[00:44:17]a big area. It's not, New York obviously, or Chicago or even Detroit. but the point is there's there were positions  I was in law school when there was a bad recession  it was hard. It wasn't easy for everyone in my class to get jobs or interviews. And there were jobs in camp Hill and that was, good to know.

[00:44:33]it wasn't, it wouldn't have been that hard to get a job there. And at the time. I was interested in working with Detroit because that's where I was from. And that market, was even, was hostile. the auto industry was not in good shape. There weren't a lot of jobs. there were a few good firms there, but they were, not too enthusiastic about, hiring people because they just, they were laying people off and the auto industry was in bad shape.

[00:44:53]but the point is if I wanted to, I could have gotten several jobs in camp Hill probably more than Detroit. and, in markets [00:45:00] like New York, Detroit, and Chicago, I never. felt like I was getting a very warm reception. I was able to get jobs in each of those cities actually.

[00:45:06] No, I never got a job in Chicago, I don't think. but I was able to get jobs in each of those cities, but, I certainly, wasn't made to feel like, I could just walk into a, from there and, so for many attorneys, I think that the job market. it can feel, very discouraging and both in good and bad economies.

[00:45:24] And, most attorneys would like employers to be receptive and welcoming, but that's just not something that happens, there's just so many, factors that are at work. I, when I got out of law school, I did a clerkship and. and then during that year, the market completely changed, and then the next year was even better and, the next year was even better than that.

[00:45:45]instead of, getting, few interviews in Detroit, I got tons of interviews and. and same thing in every market. So it's just a lot of it's timing and a lot of it's your practice area. it's the area of the country. You're looking at the economy, all sorts of things.

[00:45:57]at the time campus bill was isolated. [00:46:00] the firms I talked to, one of them represented a big hospital in town the other day, worked for the city. there's just work. So it was just a lot, but a lot of it is also based on luck, So the puppy is a good example, that's luck. he chose the wrong apartment, so he was barking up the wrong tree. And, he chose a building which 12 apartments, and they were all occupied by people from foreign countries. And it was just a bad thing to choose. Like it's like choosing corporate law in the middle of the bad recession.

[00:46:27]like that attorney was doing years ago and it worked for me. but instead he decided he wanted only one thing. And that hurt him. And it led him to being a feeling, being barely rejected and not doing well. So you have to understand that just because you have great qualifications or experience or other positive things.

[00:46:45] Talk for employer. It never means that they're going to be interested in hiring. You just can't control that. I've worked with people with eight figure books of business, several of them, which means, that they all are $10 million books. I worked with former Supreme court clerk, several of [00:47:00] them, at least two that I can think of a recent past, worked with, Hundreds, if not thousands of attorneys coming from the best law firms in schools, and I've never seen an interview, get, turning in an interview at every firm, they applied to say, apply to like more than three or four.

[00:47:16] I've never, in fact, for most attorneys, interviews, they don't get interviews to the substantial majority of places that they apply to. it just doesn't work that way. if your qualifications are very good, law firms may even be, thinking that you don't want to work there or that you wouldn't take them seriously.

[00:47:32] And if they're not good enough, that's another, there's just, there's so much that goes into it. I've made thousands of long-term placements. and in fact, I mean our company, BCG, even in the bad economy right now, we're making more than one placement today. I make placements almost every week of the year and many weeks, I make, multiple placements and I train people to make placements.

[00:47:52] I'm telling you this, not to brag because I'm certainly not bragging at all, but I'm telling you this to let you know, that I have some understanding [00:48:00] of people, getting jobs and how it works. it's what I'm going to tell you right now.

[00:48:05] It may not, may not be what you want to hear, but a lot of what happens is very random. there's just no way to predict, who's going to hire you some times and what's going to happen. I've had data scientists in here. We have algorithms and stuff that try to, predict things and, we've literally spent millions of dollars.

[00:48:23]researching the job market, and trying to give our units an edge and it works. But, but the same thing as is there's more randomness than up to what happens, meaning, more than half the people that we get jobs for law firms don't even have openings. for those candidates, but they make them, so that's where, some firms, you had that, you just, there's so much randoms  most people whose job is to get you a job, like recruiters will tell you this, they will, they'll try to make you believe that.

[00:48:51]they're very, that'd be special connections and all this stuff. and they'll use that to try to convince you that they can place you, but, and people that call you on the [00:49:00] phone will say that, or, you will hear that. And, in most cases, what happens is those people will send you to a few firms and then you'll never hear from them again, unless you get an interview.

[00:49:08] But, that's how the market has traditionally worked. And the problem is everything is so random. I've seen cases where. where we're working with a firm and, you send them a couple of people that look just phenomenal on paper. Li