[00:00:00] today's topic, it's called white. Yeah. You need to be exploited to succeed. it really actually could be a different, topic. this is just a, name to, get interest, but. really what this is about is this about providing a lot more value, than other people do.
[00:00:14] And it's something that the best attorneys do and that a lot of people don't really realize is a key to success. I'm going to talk about it in stories give you guys some insight into fast, but. I work with a lot of attorneys, in, privately and in some, several or, have very large books of business and you're very successful.
[00:00:32] And I've personally worked a lot of, attorneys when I was working at a very success when I try to. look at, what makes people, get successful? What makes stay successful? and this is one of the things that I think is going on in the background that, is extremely important.
[00:00:48] So a lot of people, especially, sometimes even a young attorneys, but even, older attorneys, what are the things that hold some back, quite a bit, I believe is that. [00:01:00] they tend to, look at, that when they're, working with, if people are working for people, whether it's a client or, a, or an employer, they tend to worry about, whether or not they're getting taken advantage of whether or not, they're giving, too much of themselves.
[00:01:17]for, for the employer, whether or not, that, they can be paid more for what they're doing or whether or not, they're giving too many hours and that sort of thing. And this is actually very common. a lot of people will look at it as a game, whether giving.
[00:01:30] As little of themselves as possible, trying to get, paid as much as possible, for what their time, and they're continually battering jobs, and employers, based on this particular metric and. And that's something, that I believe really prevents people from many people from settling down and having, very effective and good careers.
[00:01:50]they're just, they do that with clients. They do that kind of with everything that they do and everything is an evaluation of whether or not they're giving as [00:02:00] little as they possibly can. to get as much as they possibly can. And a lot of times people will go in house because of this, making this calculation.
[00:02:09]other people will, become solo practitioner and attempt to do this with people. And then when they do it, they tend to have to do it with small clients. They can push around. and then a lot of people even quit, because they feel. the, this system is bad. And so this is a tension that's going on in the background of most attorneys, that I've seen.
[00:02:28] And, in is constantly, there, and it's not, something that I believe, in the most successful attorneys and then what they're doing is they're really trusting that the system will take care of them. they believe that.
[00:02:40]if they do their best and give their best and they come out, it will a good spirit, that everything is going to work out for them. in all organizations and law firms employment organization, there's always a conflict going on between, advancing those who, are really giving their all and providing more value. [00:03:00]
[00:03:00]then the receiving and then, holding back those who don't and most people, I believe that are held back or held back, because of their fear that, if they give too much, they won't get, they won't get certain things. And, they really, a lot of them have a paranoia, that they're going to be exploited in relationships and professional and personal relationships and, whatever else you do.
[00:03:21] And, in a lot of cases, w partners and Marsh law firms. they will, switch firms every few years because, they believe that they're not being paid enough and that they're being exploited and so they don't move. So this isn't something that happens just with, young attorneys or associates.
[00:03:38] It's very common among partners. Like they're worried that they're giving too much. and when they're giving too much or, giving too much of, the amount of money they bring in, then they leave firms. So there's lots of partners and stuff that are constantly moving around doing that.
[00:03:52] lot of associates believe that they work too many hours and they'll give me too much. And they look for a boutique firm or something where the workload is less, even if, [00:04:00] they believe that the payroll will stay the same. So this is just always. going on in the background then many associates, of course, a large number of them do not, become partners, right away or, in the law firms that they want to initially.
[00:04:14]and they don't understand that, they're not providing more value than they're taking and, the whole calculation of rising in the law firm succeed in a law firm or in any business is really about. providing more value than your peers, and whether it's in hours or in business or whatever.
[00:04:31] And those are the people that do well and rise to the top. And the people that don't provide more value are the ones that, generally, end up having problems. many people are, like I said, they're looking for, shortcuts and they're looking for ways that they believe that they can, make as much money or they can work the least amount they possibly can to avoid.
[00:04:53]getting taken advantage of there's nothing wrong with that. everyone has self-interest you have self-interest and [00:05:00] everybody wants to maximize, what they do. And I get the most for what they're doing. And an example would be if you're working at a law firm law firm comes along and doubles your salary, and that's something to seriously think about.
[00:05:11]there's nothing wrong with that. but the point is that, when you're constantly calculating everything that you get or an exchange for what you might receive, that's going to burn you. it doesn't, it's a total outlook on, in terms of the way you do things and the way you interact with people in a way, you're, doing your job that is going to have, No major ramifications and employers avoid people, that try to provide less value.
[00:05:36]even in personal relationships, people are going avoid those sort of people. the person, that, doesn't give, is typically, alone and they don't work. They're unhappy and, they're takers and not givers. And, one of the things that I've always noticed is, I have, Volunteered, in homeless shelters, employed people, that, come off the street and so forth and, work with people that have had, [00:06:00] problems with different things. And, in most cases, when you really get down to it, people that are isolated, that people that are having jobs, problems, staying employed, or, a lot of times getting jobs and.
[00:06:12]that are unhappy. A lot of that unhappiness is because, they're afraid to get in there. and they're not, they don't give as much of themselves as they can because the more you're giving, and the more you're, solving other people's problems and the more you're, and you're helping others, the more the world gives back to you.
[00:06:30] And that's just something that, is very true and it's a universal law. Different religions, preach that in different ways. And it really does come down to, a work thing. I think there's a prayer that I heard recently, the Saint Francis prayer, which is, this is not a religious presentation.
[00:06:45] I'm just giving you an example of, of, a religion that says that. And so the idea is you want to give as much value and you want to be someone that solving problems. and not someone, that's, worrying about helping others. And there's a [00:07:00] face cream that I use. there's a saying on it, it's right on the cover.
[00:07:03] And it says, life takes from the taker and gifts giver. And I believe that's actually true. I believe, people, that I've seen that have the most problems in their lives and their careers are takers. And. and they try to take everything that they can long game in this little as they can.
[00:07:19] And the people that do the best in their personal lives and also in their work lives are givers. changing your mindset to being a giver is one of the most important, possible things, that you can do because, the more you give, the more we'll come back to you and the more you concentrate in providing value to other people and helping people with advice or.
[00:07:41]solving problems or, working hard for your employer or, thinking harder and seeing solutions where other people just gloss over things, is gonna make a huge difference in your life and your career. like I said, most people that have issues and there. personal and financial lives, believe [00:08:00] a lot of times that people will take advantage of them if they give too much.
[00:08:04] And the secret to being, really good at something is having much more to offer than, providing more, than anyone else than us. it's like that, when you're applying, when people are applying to schools, if you'd have the highest grades and you have the.
[00:08:18]the best test scores and you went to the best college and you have the most extracurricular that's providing, more of a person that is highly qualified to a school than it is someone that isn't, it's just, you're showing that you have a history of working harder, being smarter, whatever, but that's how the world works.
[00:08:38] And that's why, schools are important. That's why, firms can be important in all sorts of things. So I know a man that, retired in his mid fifties. And I, met him a long time ago his belief was, I remember, talking to him was that, women and relationships should be equal contributors, meaning everything had a good bull cross.
[00:08:56] So one person paid for dinner one time, the other person to pay for at that [00:09:00] time and everything, was measured and calculated. this man, had this idea of everything. Everything had to. be measured. He would always try to get the most out of, various situations ultimately, had no consistent relationships and along in life, because every interaction, was measured and, whether it was affection or money or time or whatever, everything had a quid pro quo, and that's a way of thinking that, not a lot of people have, but some people do and, evaluating what you give in these terms leads to problems and, many issues.
[00:09:36]if you are able to, give more than you take and provide extra value. then that's going to be helpful a lot of times, when in legal matters, there's very quick and easy solutions. I would say that a good percentage of the attorneys that, I've worked with in the past.
[00:09:54]and when I say good percentage, I'd say over 50% will, look at business that comes in as a way [00:10:00] to try to extract money. And, even if they could solve a problem very quickly, they would try to maybe extend it a little bit or a lot, that doesn't do clients very good.
[00:10:10] And the clients ultimately will try to avoid attorneys like that. And. it's this the struggle about people that aren't giving a lot, and people that are, it's happening every day. And, there's always a struggle on every employer about people that are trying to do as little work as possible.
[00:10:26] give us a little as possible. And it's something that I'm sure that you can see around yourself. Like when you're working in that, it's just, it's everywhere. And, it's not a good thing. So I recently took a vacation I'm just going to give you some quick examples because, I could talk about these kinds of examples all day with people that I work with, but I want you to see how this operates around you and how deep operates around me.
[00:10:48] And, so I recently went on vacation and before I left, there's a maintenance man that works in my house. And, he offered to take care of my dogs and stay in my house while he was gone. And, he, typically works at the house, three [00:11:00] days a week. during those three days he has various tasks.
[00:11:03]I live in the beach. There's like painting that needs to be done all the time. Cause things rust and, washing things off and, but anyway that he's supposed to, he works three days a week. And so I asked him to, work on some ongoing work while I was gone. he told him he could stay in my house and watch my dogs.
[00:11:18] And I also asked for turtles and, what else do I have a parrot? And, I don't know some Hansel's my kids, but anyway, so I asked him, watch this, and he said that, he would do all that stuff. and what he did is he stayed in my house, but, for the days I was gone that he was supposed to be working.
[00:11:33]but, he didn't, he didn't do any of the work. He was supposed to, he instead he'd lamps around the house all day and watch TV walk from the beach and didn't work. And. he justified not working. and he actually went out and worked for someone else during the day and they would come home at night and take care of their thoughts.
[00:11:51]he justified the taking care of the dogs was a fair trade. And so that's an example of someone worried about being taken advantage of, because he took the dogs out and walked them in the morning at [00:12:00] night, he was worried that, if he did more, he would be taken advantage of.
[00:12:03] So then he worked two jobs. so that's an example. And then, when I was on vacation, I met a couple, that had come close to the divorce in the past year. then the husband, hadn't been working decided that he wanted to find himself. And so he'd stopped working then.
[00:12:17]and then the whites would become the breadwinner and, it was taking all these side jobs and doing all these things, working extra hours so the man, because, demanded a lot of work. and she felt that he needed to go back to work and she felt taken advantage of and exploited, which is, probably a fair, approximation of one person felt taken advantage of by the other and that these kinds of things happen all the time in relationships.
[00:12:40]and then on another vacation I took not too long ago. I rented a house to stay in the house had a concierge and. and there was just all sorts of things. No, that happens. one person trying to, instead of we bought a $30 voucher, champagne, and then, they didn't buy that brand and bought another brand and they said it was a hundred dollars a bottle, but it was actually a $60 a [00:13:00] bottle and they inflated the cost.
[00:13:01] And, just all sorts of things like that happened, where, one side was trying to take advantage of the other, providing. Less value than we paid for. and the same thing with, a massage, we were charged, a hundred, $70 an hour massage was purchased far more than, would pay in the us.
[00:13:17] then there's tips put in, there'll be, we went to a, a hotel pool then, that was in this community and we were told we needed to pay in cash and. I learned later that, there's a thing that goes on. And a lot of third world countries sometimes where they say the credit card machine is broken, you pay in cash and to keep the money.
[00:13:35]So that kind of happened where someone that was working there was stealing from the hotel and also effectively from us. then we got facials. I never get facials, but, they were supposed to be $150. They made the bill 450. and they gave $150 chip to themselves, but the point is like, all these things were happening.
[00:13:56]and just, one after another, and then, the concierge to Manor, [00:14:00] to tip and then demand mates get a tap. And he wanted me to get the tips for the main. So all these people, everywhere you returning were trying to. take advantage of us people are trying to provide, to get more money for providing this value to deliver.
[00:14:13] And these are very simple incidents. talking about, a hotel pool and a concierge and, someone ordering champagne and stuff. These are, how sky's staying in the house are very simple, but this sort of outlook and way that people approach things is something that keeps them back.
[00:14:29]as people that do this all the time, they don't get into manners. What happens is people don't want to do business with them in the future. Mexico courses, a third world country, I, after that experience, I would rather not go there. I just don't want to play those games.
[00:14:43] And. People doing those sort of things. And, the same thing goes with a guy that worked for me. And so if you think about issues, you may be having your career, and where you've been successful and where you haven't been successful, the odds are that where you haven't been successful.
[00:14:58] There's something like that. Sometimes it's [00:15:00] happening in the background where you're not really providing as much value or you're cutting corners or something. And when you're cutting corners, that. Is he an example of, taking more than you're giving. So I have a relativist, another religious story.
[00:15:14] I, it, this is a weird, LA based religion. and it's not weird I guess, but that religion requires some to work, in their, their center giving him all his money. so he's. the relatives feel like he's being exploited. I expected to work for free for long hours.
[00:15:29]and give them also all the money and extend his regular job. And he's literally living at like a near poverty level to support the organization and the religion just keep bullying him to give, him all this money. So this is an example of someone that actually is being taken advantage of.
[00:15:44] And, sometimes that happens. there are cases where, people are exploited and taken advantage of, there are firms, that will explain to you and never advanced here and, expect you to work for less than you're worth. or any group that takes more than a gifts, [00:16:00] typically it has problems and this particular religion is, you would know it is, the center has all sorts of negative documentaries and stuff because it's taking more than a gifts.
[00:16:08] And, people that take more than they give, end up failing, organizations that take more than they give, end up failing. And, even countries, the take one they give, ended up failing. I think if you think about, your life, you should ask yourself, do you feel, maybe that you're being used and taking their Angelo by anybody do you feel like you may be, being exploited by others?
[00:16:29]or are you, trying to, explain it to other people and, groups that you belong to and get the most out of them it's just, you have to, think about what's going on. And, if in every business, by the way, if you run a business or even running a family, everybody is going to want a lot of stuff out of you.
[00:16:49] They're going to want, if you run a business, your employees are going to want more. Your company is going to want more, everybody, is going to want more and people want to work less. [00:17:00] and that's just how it is. And so there's always, what a company does or what any law firm or business does is they have, they're looking for people that are providing more and, getting rid of people, that are providing us.
[00:17:13] And they're trying to mediate that process and the people that always are kept around are the people that are providing far more value than they're taking. when there's layoffs in the firm, by the way, when firms lay people off and it happens all the time, that's the calculation they're making this person, giving more than they're taking.
[00:17:31] And the people that are given the most are always the ones that are kept around. And that's one reason why, what I'm talking about today may not seem like the most important thing in the world, but it actually is extremely important because. This is the calculation that's going around. people are asking themselves, are you providing more than others?
[00:17:50]in my company, like what I'm always doing at this company is we're always trying to get people to improve. We're trying to get people to, understand, [00:18:00] for example, in the legal place in business to, identify better fits for the candidates too. to spend more time, understanding, an individual candidate to make them look better to a law firm, by, humanizing them to, to find a more, position in the market to, work harder, with firms need a certain type of person that identifies them.
[00:18:22] So it's all sorts of things. and people cite those inference. people, get into, they try to resist. And the interesting thing is that as a company evolves, like people will always kind of fall off because people get comfortable providing a certain level of effort, for a certain level of reward.
[00:18:40] it doesn't always work. And it's because a lot of times you fight that you fight the effort to improve, or you fight. that you're always going to, run into problems. the typical attitude is, that a lot of people grow up with and learn is that, you go to work for someone you get paid for your effort and time.
[00:18:57] And a lot of times, people will [00:19:00] believe that, no, sir, and like accomplishments living in a certain area, and so forth. give them. the right to a specific salary and it's almost people, some people will approach things as like us, against them attitude, inside of law firms.
[00:19:13] And they'll believe that they're in charge or they, they have a certain. there's a kind of a, an antagonism between the organization and themselves. And so they need to get as much as they can. and that's, really, happens in all graduates.
[00:19:26]in all, organizations, but once I hired a member, several years ago in Ivy league, law school, graduate to choose stories and then to edit them for. an online publication, it was running I paid him actually as much as I would for that job, that he would've made practicing law.
[00:19:44] I expected him to, work hard and instead he came into work at 10 each day. And then, he'd take a lunch for an hour or so. And then, most days we'll be gone by five and, he wasn't really trying to provide. any of that much value and he believed that [00:20:00] his qualifications gave them the right to do that.
[00:20:03] And he, the case made him special. even though that was what he was doing was pressuring for stock options and so forth. and what he ended up doing, was because you didn't want to provide a lot of value. for what he was being paid and what the company was doing.
[00:20:19] He just created a lot of pressure for himself. And I've put pressure on him, manners, put pressure on him and he just, and didn't have a good experience, because he wasn't providing value. And so everyone around you is always trying to, get you, to improve.
[00:20:33] And if you don't and you're not providing more value than you're paid. Then, then things go back and he could have done all sorts of things to provide more value. In addition to his job, he could have done things outside. To help the publication. any success you have as an attorney profession becomes, actually gets much greater when you abandon the idea of exchange and just throw yourself into the job.
[00:20:55] And that means you, you don't really care about what your initial [00:21:00] compensation, so you just do this by improving and becoming much better than the people around you. and in your improve yourself in every possible way you can. When I coach people on and I talked to them about, improving their personal lives, so they're more effective.
[00:21:13] I talked to them about improving their work lives. So I talked to them about, how they can. do more than other people. I talked to them about, how to think about their jobs because it's providing much more value and you don't get into this employment, employee mindset where you'd have to provide us, let him know as possible.
[00:21:28] And you go into kind of a different mode, everything changes and people that do well and work hard and think about providing more value, always neat. the ones that don't worry about being exploited. people realize when you're putting in your all and given everything you have and they want to reward you.
[00:21:44] if you don't worry about giving, and then, a lot of good things happen to you and the same thing with relationships, you can't measure everything that happens. If you measure everything that happens, then you're definitely, then you'll be, you won't be, rewarded.
[00:21:58]I know, one attorney, that, [00:22:00] with a $10 million book of business, and he was able to get that by going out of his way consistently to, help general councils and others. And what he would do is he would, he would be, get out and be out there networking a little community in addition to doing his regular job and going to events and so forth.
[00:22:17] He would hear about, problems that, general councils and other people were having. And he would get in touch with them and contact them and talk to them about their problems and how to solve them and, what they could do. And he would do these things for them without even charging them. he might spend, he might go meet with them and he might, he would never bring up anything to do with what he was going to get paid or anything.
[00:22:42] He would go out of their way, his way to help them. And he would talk to them about how to get a very quick solution. If it was possible, all sorts of things and you could propose actually very smart things. that would help them. people were amazed because other attorneys, that he would meet with would try to, these general councils over a meeting where [00:23:00] we're trying to blow up whatever the problems were and talk about all this work that needed to be done and do those sorts of things.
[00:23:07] And so this attorney's approach that. this is a very young attorney with this size book of business and it's continuing, is basically to go out and help people and not even do it, looking for money. people, if you offer enough value to people will offer you money. They won't, they'll offer to hire you.
[00:23:24] They won't, and if he in, so this is what he does. He goes out and he finds people, have issues, and he tries to solve a problem. It's about giving. It's not about taking. And this whole attitude of giving and not taking, and worried about being exploited. And you think about this whole approach to getting business, which I think is a remarkable, it's really about, not worrying about people taking advantage of you, going out of your way to try to solve problems about, trying to help others.
[00:23:52] that's just not how most attorneys, a lot of people think. instead of trying to soak people and. Make people sign agreements and so forth. He, tries to [00:24:00] offer solutions, as inexpensively as possible. And when he does those, people remember it, he never asked, to be higher, and people may actually approach him and hire him.
[00:24:11] They talk about him to other people and he's liked and he's call for advice. And he's able to, see things from other people's point of view. that's a very, effective, thing and in business, by the way, in all types of business. and I brought this up earlier, but most conflicts come from people who want to take without giving it's.
[00:24:32] It's always like that. And it's probably like that in your personal life as well. If you can think of, the majority of conflicts you have in your personal life. significant others or friends or family. most of them come down to the fact that one side wants to get, or one side wants to take and you want to be on the side of the person that's trying to get on because more people, are, that are trying to give and are measuring that, something that kind of creates the problem.
[00:24:59] It's the same thing with [00:25:00] vendors. Like I brought up earlier, and jobs more. So when I was young and growing up in Michigan, my father used to pay me to do things like shovel the driveway, in the sidewalk, in front of the house, after it snow. And then in the summer, as you pay me to cut the lawn in the fall, gather leaves and bring them by the side of the road.
[00:25:17] And, each of these paths would have an amount, so I might get $10 for, shoveling and some big snow storm and that sort of thing. But, he always taught me to do something, the other people wouldn't do. So he taught me to do a lot more than expected. So if I shoveled the drivers and sidewalk, he would, encouraged me to think about ways to do extra work.
[00:25:37]to actually look like a better provider than other people. if I was asked to do the drivers and sidewalks, I would, clean off the awnings, maybe, remove the snow from the car, and some other task. And the idea was is that, you obviously want her to be more than the average person would do.
[00:25:52]you want her to show that you were giving more than you were actually paid for? and leave that kind of impression in people's mind and, the [00:26:00] sexual work make you feel appreciated. And, it also, provided a lot of additional value. It was something, that made you, much more valuable to people and a very positive thing.
[00:26:10]and what he would always say, which was funny, but he would say, you need to think of your Japanese could do in the work. And the reason you said that is because at the time. I grew up, I lived and grew up in the Detroit area and, there was, like a lot of stuff going on the auto industry.
[00:26:25] And what was happening is the Japanese were building much better cars than us car companies, and taken away a market share just like crazy. the cars didn't break down all the time. they had higher resale value, the gas mileage, the fit and finish was, much better. They were much cheaper.
[00:26:43]they didn't rattle and fall apart. they were just much better, than American cars the Japanese did everything they could, to make their products, much better, and to provide more value than American cars. And, honestly by the time I was like, when I was growing up, if you looked at, what would happen if we bought an [00:27:00] American car and what would happen if you bought a, a Japanese car.
[00:27:02] It didn't really make sense to buy an American car. You bought an American car for $10,000. In two years, it'd be, were five. I bought a Japanese car in tears. It would be worth, eight. and it would not only would it be worth eight, but they wouldn't have broken down. You wouldn't have maintenance it's years and all sorts of things.
[00:27:18] And the issue was, is American car companies were not improving. and we're not providing as much value. They believed that they had. a captive audience of people that had always bought American cars and they didn't need to recruit him as much. people became very concerned about, getting as much money out of the auto companies that they could have in terms of their pay.
[00:27:37]and, benefits sorts of things and the American companies to become complacent unions dominated a lot. They had higher labor costs. Everyone was worried about what they can get, not providing. value as a consequence, the companies, didn't provide value and, major city like Detroit Flint, another cities in the Midwest, in places in Ohio, completely [00:28:00] went to crap, because, they were not providing value, compared to their competitors and the people that were inside those organizations, weren't as, we're doing the same thing.
[00:28:09] What happened was the Japanese. when they started on manufacturing cars after world war II, their quality of their cars was, far below American cars. a result, people, weren't buying Japanese cars. they were like a joke, but, eventually they became, very good cars the focus on providing more value and doing things better, then your competition meant that.
[00:28:29]they started providing much more value than they took. So if you want to have a good career and you want to do very well, providing more value, than your peers is really, the most important thing. You're not just trading your time, to a law firm or business.
[00:28:43] What you're trading is your ability to do better work, perform better socially. contribute more than your peers, and bring in business and everything. and that's really what the name of the game is. you're always going to be evaluated based on how much value you can or you [00:29:00] provide compared to others.
[00:29:01] And that's why, when people are let go, I see articles every day. I just saw one this morning that came out in the news about, large law firms, doing mass layoffs of partners that are. not without business and not providing value. It's just, this is what everything is about.
[00:29:16]and there's a article, probably several articles out there today, and it's the same thing when the associates are like, Oh, it's the same thing. When, firms have, financial problems. A lot of times they're providing less value to their clients and they're receiving, so you'd have to think, how do you provide, more value and this is what the hold up economic system is about.
[00:29:36]your ability to advance your ability to become successful, your ability to be happy in relationships and so forth is about, providing more value and more value by the way. It's not just, sitting down and working. more value is, how hard do you use your mind and how well, much you think about the problems, your account and how will you deal with that?
[00:29:57]that's. That's one example of value, but value [00:30:00] is, just being better than your everybody same thing with their clients. I want to talk about clients real briefly. I brought them up before, but I think this is actually important. they, many attorneys, probably ones you've worked with and view, the relationship where clients have someone antagonistic.
[00:30:18] They. they may be nice to them and flatter them, but then at the same time, they want to build a client as much money as possible and as quickly as possible. And, many, will moderate this. but many are motivated by, doing, taking as much money as I can from clients while doing this little work as possible or doing more work than necessary.
[00:30:37] And, people that are continually manipulating situations like this, 10 ended up with no clients people are smart and people know when they're being taken advantage of, when they're not receiving the value they're paying for it. The same thing with law firms, not one of the people working for them.
[00:30:52] Or, given the value that they're paying for and clients are always evaluating their options to make sure they receive the best value possible. [00:31:00] What they're paying. There's one thing I probably shouldn't talk about, but I'm gonna talk about real briefly. and it's the upward mobility inside of law firms.
[00:31:07] Law firms prefer to hire people with two to five years of experience, just software. And the reason for that is because. Those attorneys, at least at the associate level are hungry and will provide a lot more value. they'll work longer hours, try harder, and try to come up with solutions and impress people.
[00:31:25] And when people get a little bit older, they tend to be, not do that as much now, is that true for everyone? No, of course not. But. they tend to, people tend to moderate, the value they provide when they get older, they have families, they have that sort of thing. And certain people don't my partners, big firms, a lot of time listen personnel, but, a lot of people do so that's, th this whole value thing is going on, in the bathroom.
[00:31:47] And I believe that the partner, the liars were the largest books of business. the ones that. are really good and, continue to have large books of business. really, have their clients' [00:32:00] backs and they're not interested in kind of quarters. They're interested in providing as much value as they possibly can and not prolonging that.
[00:32:07]and they really do believe in providing, a lot of outage with their clients doing a good job and, your ability. to be happy, in your life and, really have a lot to do with your ability to provide more value than not to be also, you have to learn not to be, taking advantage of as well, but, it's very important.
[00:32:27] very few people, by the way, I can navigate. The tension between providing value and worried about being exploited, many people, because they don't like that conflict and they, they feel, that they're going to be taken advantage of, often resign themselves and end up providing a lot of us value and that holds them back.
[00:32:46] And, but the point of all of this that I've talked about today is that. working in a law firm, running a law firm or being the best at anything, means that you're probably going to be providing a lot more value than your [00:33:00] peers and, much more. law firms and everybody will always advance people that do that.
[00:33:06] if you offer more value, you're going to do better financially. And also in terms of prestige. And if you do not provide more value than others, then you're not going to advance. So I was just thinking just now it's a funny story, but I had this job when I was in, when I was young, like maybe 15 or 16, calling up people and I'm selling them credit cards over the phone.
[00:33:27] it was in a telemarketing place. And. It was incredible. I could call up like, the ship would start at five 30, it would end maybe nine. And I could literally get like a hundred people per night and, to do it very quickly. And my peers would only get maybe one, two or three people.
[00:33:43] And I don't know what it was, but I had a real ability. the firm, the company decided that I was so good at that. instead of being in a giant call center, which I was, with maybe a hundred other kids, they actually put me, on a different floor in my own office because they didn't want [00:34:00] people to disturb me because they felt like my time was so valuable.
[00:34:03] then, the owner of the company started coming up to me and then the. then the, the bank, that we were assigned the credit cards from, the guy came and, would, listened to all my calls and I started recording them and then, then they wanted me to, and then they gave me raises I hated the job by the way, it was exhausting because you had to be like completely on and have the right kind of voice and.
[00:34:23]but the point was is even in that little job, I'm sure that at the age of 15 or 16, I could have probably, made all sorts of money and, I would go home at night and I would read books about, how to, sell. I would, and all these sorts of things.
[00:34:38] And it wasn't really that difficult, but at the same time for me, it wasn't, but, at the same time, if you get really good at something and you give more, I gave, 50 times more than my peers, in terms of my average number of these things I sold per night and I can sell them literally two or three minutes.
[00:34:54]it makes a difference. always want to provide a lot more value if I just based on that, I probably could have had a career, [00:35:00] doing that age and dropped out of school. So in every organization, I was thinking when I was doing this cold calling, or, people with some who get two credit cards a night.
[00:35:09]there's people that attempt to skirt by, without providing as much value. And, many people in law firms, companies and other organizations will offer, will provide less value than they receive. And there's this tension everywhere. I know one woman at a. Los Angeles law firm. I know another one, actually another law firm.
[00:35:28]there's people that are making, well over a million dollars a year and very good law firms, without providing a value. And those are circuit people, always lose their jobs eventually. sometimes it takes a while. and those kinds of people may be gaming the system, but it never lasts.
[00:35:44]if you're in a position where you feel like you're gaming the system, you better catch up fast because any organization is always going to. get rid of those sorts of people. Eventually, it's just, it always happens. And, you need to be, on the opposite side, you should be someone instead of a [00:36:00] person and making a million five-year billing 400 hours a year, it will be better if you were building 3000 hours a year and making $1.5 million a year, or have a huge book of business and, or providing more value.
[00:36:11] And it was just a question of time. It's how you were given, race, imagine, at my. Age when I'm 15 years old being, taken up to an executive floor and given, a nice office with a bunch of college graduates, our executives, in a credit card company.
[00:36:28]it's just crazy. if you provide a lot of value will be advanced you'll survive you'll never lose your job. And, if you give more than people and people that are unemployed, unsuccessful, having problems, typically are the ones that aren't providing a lot of value.
[00:36:45]they, they believe, that if they don't try to take advantage of the situation, there'll be taken advantage of instead of, and, they never commit. they never provide as much value and they never really put themselves in the situation of doing that and provide as much value.
[00:36:58] And because of that, [00:37:00] they never, 68 and, I have, as a business, every business does. And so I'm actually not different, but I've certainly encountered all sorts of people that have done everything they can. to try to provide less value to means in the paid for, there's employees that do that.
[00:37:16] There's, other people that do the exact opposite and provide as much value as they possibly can. And the people that, have stuck around and, the capital round, the people to do that. the people that remain with me consistently and give the most of themselves, I always put the needs of the company first and not themselves.
[00:37:33] And people that do that, I've always, been rewarded, financially, and done well and people that are no longer here and it's like this and every company, I've done the opposite. And I know one guy, for example, that started working in the mail room of our company and did a good job and, was hungry to do good work and, received, several raises.
[00:37:52]he made a started at like minimum wage and pretty soon he was making, maybe double that. But then, he reached a point where he started [00:38:00] feeling like he should, be receiving more as the company was growing around him. he started accomplishing last, things not getting done.
[00:38:07] And then he started, working all sorts of overtime. when you didn't have overtime to do. then, luckily I had a new manager that was working in the office late. we actually just have an apartment in our office and so she was staying in that apartment realize you've been building the company.
[00:38:21]I'll start to, for time where we was just sitting there in an office late at night, I'm not doing any work. so he was trying to get something for nothing and someone that. Became successful by working hard and providing more value and then eventually, lost their job, by, not doing a good job and not providing value.
[00:38:39] So the point is that if you're going to advance and do well, you need to provide. you do the best work for yourself and your job an attorney should be doing, whatever they can to work as hard as they can to provide as much value. And, if you're young, and getting that experience, you really shouldn't worry about your compensation.
[00:38:54]compensation for an attorney by the way, is something, if you graduated at 25 and when you do want to make a [00:39:00] lot of money, but at the same time, the first four or five years. Are really time to get experience. And the more work you get, the more you learn, the more experience you get.
[00:39:10] So compensation really shouldn't be, something that dominates your thought process partners, by the way, they, should be providing as much value to the candidates or clients. That's the only way to grow a book of businesses. it's a competitive marketplace.
[00:39:22] There are so many attorneys out there. the more value provider clients, the better off you're going to be. And that's something you should always be trying to do. Everything's about providing value and, in the background of every interaction, most people, questions about who's providing the most value when they choose an attorney, they're choosing the attorney to provide the most value.
[00:39:41] And we do this from employers. Employers are doing it with us. and we do it with clients and, to be successful. The only thing you can do is try to provide more value than other people, and you don't want to be taken advantage of you don't need to be, but any person out there, is going to want to, receive more value [00:40:00] than they're paying for, or, and that's just how it works.
[00:40:03] the natural tendency is to. elevate people, that are providing more value. like I was elevated when I was working in a call center. and that's just important. And, there are people that will not pay us what you want. there are people that will take advantage of you.
[00:40:20]there are people that will play games from your compensation and so forth. if that happens, but that's not, there's not really much you can do, but leave. And, you may be in a relationship where one partner refused to contribute, despite us needing them to and be taken advantage of.
[00:40:36] you may not get, the rewards you're entitled to, but the thing is, that I've noticed, and this is a, something that is very important is when someone's underpaid at a law firm, and they're working and they're doing really good work, to get the attention of people outside the law firm and.
[00:40:53] Or their attorneys and they know, that the kind of situation that person's in and that the person's doing really good [00:41:00] work and they will often, hire them away. It happens all the time. if someone sees someone that's really good, they'll hire them away. It happens in, law firms all the time.
[00:41:09] It happens, in romantic relationships. if you're providing a lot more value, who knows what will have come along, but the point is. You know that, you have to, and value in a relationship by the way. It's not just, about, what you provide it's about affectionate and all sorts of other things in your time.
[00:41:24] But, there's just a point, but the point is that, you may be in a situation, where, you're not, you're providing a lot more value and that's okay. And especially when you're young, but, the idea is that, you do need to be in a situation where, providing more value everything works.
[00:41:40]when both sides are providing enough value and that's really why people leave, it's why people, go to new firms and so forth. it's all out of the, the search of value. And it's interesting. I was talking to someone yesterday or doing a podcast and, we were talking about.
[00:41:55]law firms and how they compensate people. And, there's certain rules like [00:42:00] that, a law firm, typically, whatever you're compensated, th the best run law firms are always going towards, paying their partners and their associates about 30 to 35% of the revenue at that time person generates.
[00:42:12] And when people are doing that pain too much, or they're paying too little. then everything always balancing themselves out. So a law firm really is a management, organization that, consistently is trying to, moderate, how much, what they're paying their inputs and their outputs.
[00:42:28] And that's really what's going on. And what's going on in the background is, how much, you're contributing and getting rewarded. So I am going to take a quick break. And when I come back, I will take as many questions as you want. I'm trying to think of, any possible questions you have, it doesn't have to relate to today's webinar, but it could also relate to nuclear career.
[00:42:47] And I'm happy to answer those questions. Thanks. Yeah.
[00:42:52] Yeah. okay. So what types of the first one is, let's see here, what types of specific recommendations do you have for people to [00:43:00] improve and increase their bag? in a firm setting, small group or corporate setting, what is working hard for instance, and what is the metric for doing well? So increasing your value means, every organization has different metrics of that.
[00:43:12]one organization, one way of increasing your value. w one, I'm sorry, one way of increasing your value is, to try to, anticipate problems and solutions to things that may not be readily apparent to. the average attorneys, the average person that goes into a legal organization and will basically try to solve problems by, just doing what they're asked and if you could figure out ways to do more than you're asked and to anticipate extra things like that, is one of the most important possible things you can do is anticipate more things.
[00:43:46] And then, in a law firm, when you're young, a lot of the value is how many hours you work. but then, there's really two metrics in a law firm setting. They're the most important. The first one is going to be how much business you bring in, when you're older and the next one [00:44:00] is going to be how many hours you work.
[00:44:01] So both of those are important to increase your value. And working hard is obviously important when you're young. But, increasing your value is, and those are kind of things that I would. And the big point that I want to make to you is that, having a lot of value inside of a legal organization is really just the question of, your ability to solve problems, in a better way, in a faster way than, in a more effective by a lot of times, then the people that you're working with in that to do better work, but.
[00:44:31]everybody is evaluating you based on the value. So value is a very big, and difficult term to, to pin down, in a lot of respects. But, I think you understand what it is. It's just the question is, whether or not you're doing more, than your competitors, and wherever you work.
[00:44:47] And that means, haven't been the best at your job and improving and getting better and better. Awesome. Okay. Let's see. Next question is, do you know if any book would be, teach us how to behave in the [00:45:00] workplace? I'm going to start my career and I'm worried about people who play strategies and this kind of things.
[00:45:06] I don't want to be named one who works harder and don't be noticed in politics, the workplace burdock on networking and so forth. ultimately everything comes down to the quality of the work that you do, and how hard you work. So when you start in a new. decision, then, you're definitely, going to be better off concentrating on the work.
[00:45:24]politics can certainly make some, somewhat of a difference. The problem with politics I've learned is that, people, inside of law firms can be there on the end or the outs. And if you don't understand, politics very well. And don't play that game. you avoid being, on the negative side of politics, so you often can be much better off, not playing politics or just being, very kind of aloof from it.
[00:45:47] And I've noticed that in a lot of cases, we attorneys that have the most longetivity in law firms and corporate settings, do not get involved with toxics because anytime you get involved in politics and pick sides, then this year, that means that [00:46:00] someone is as potentially. and the, in the future is going to be, coming after you, if they don't, you're going to be making them this when you take sides.
[00:46:07] So taking sides is a very, dangerous thing. in our organization, there's politics going on. someone's going to be unhappy and someone's, be, get their way. So it's just, you have to be careful. Okay. Yeah. Just keep, I'm glad there's seems like there's a lot of questions.
[00:46:21] So the more questions you guys have, the better. let me see here. So the next question is, due to the economic climate is now a good time to transition from government practice to from life. How are associates paid? I'm accustomed to steady patients. it is a good time depending on your practice area to transition from a government job to affirm job.
[00:46:42]the issue with working in the government right now is you may be actually in a very stable position and. and if you're in a stable position, then I don't know that it's a good time. A certain practice areas are very much in demand right now. because of this particular economy and those include, family law trust in the States, and then a [00:47:00] lot of smaller markets are busy.
[00:47:01]litigation is actually getting very busy. anytime there's a economic crisis, corporate tends to slow down and that's happening to some extent. what I would recommend is, if you want to investigate the market, then you can, most associates and law firms are paid salaries and, if you're with the government.
[00:47:19]but associate jobs are much easier to get when you're only a few years out of school and I don't know how many years out of school you are. that certainly could make a difference in, Being able to get one of those jobs, but if you're in a status, right now, law firms are businesses and because they're businesses, they tend to fluctuate in terms of how well they do in different economic climates so in a bad economic climate and one that, may not be getting better soon, or you may be better off staying with, the government.
[00:47:47]Unless that position is under criteria, which I know it is in some places. Okay. what suggestions do you have for someone entering law school and subsequent older employment in older age? More like [00:48:00] 55 plus. And how does this also both for solar law firm practices, or small law firm practices who must provide excellent dogfights directly.
[00:48:09] Okay, if you're coming out of law school, like in the, over 55, which is actually very common, there's an article I believe on, basic return search or loss crossing called, lost students coming out of school later in life or something. you can, I've known attorneys that have come out of, law school in their fifties.
[00:48:27] And I know one woman actually going to be a very good career until she was in her late seventies. working in a law firm as a litigator and a, actually a very, well-known law firm trite. So you can definitely work in law firms, through most of your career. there's no, issue with, working in a law firm at an old, when you get older.
[00:48:44]the only problem is that a lot of the larger law firms will avoid hiring older attorneys just because. they, they want younger people unless you have some very good experience. sometimes people may have been like, work worked in health care, some sort of area where, [00:49:00] there's not a lot of attorneys, where your experience can be very valuable.
[00:49:03] And so they may, despite being know that they may hire you. you can also start as a solo practitioner. before you start a solo practitioner job, though, I would really recommend getting some training. Most of the training that happens, for lawyers, isn't in law school just teaches how to question assumptions and, improve your reading skills and logic and some other things.
[00:49:25] then, teaches you fundamentals, but the most important things. that an attorney learns really are learned on the job. so you should sh you shouldn't try to get, work under someone. and the more, the better the attorney, firms about are their first couple of years.
[00:49:38] Cause that's where the learning curves. thank you for creating these programs that help. Of health legal professionals. I watched a couple of videos from about the book attorney job search secrets reveal. I found this material inspiring and valuable. I graduated from law school in 2018 and been practicing tax audit, but I've been making a career transition to switch my [00:50:00] practice to litigation for a while with a goal of pursuing a federal clerkship.
[00:50:05] For years later, when my immigration status allows me to do Working as a judicial intern during law school was the most enjoyable time in my career. Life was wondering whether you can share some insights into addition, looking for jobs and litigation. What else can I do to increase my value as a litigator?
[00:50:20] What types of firms would you recommend? if you've been practicing tax law, it is difficult to sometimes to transition. Into a law firm, immediately. what I would recommend is if you do want to be a federal clerk, I don't know if it says something here about your, Oh, your immigration status.
[00:50:37] We need to have a big, okay. I'm sure there's plenty of items. If there's other government jobs you can work with, while you're getting, immigration experience. But if you really do want to be or where you're getting your immigration papers, but, if you really want to be, litigated. The best thing to do is probably to apply to, smaller firms, to start, and you can also apply to large law firms, credit tax firm.
[00:50:58]the other option is most tax [00:51:00] firms do have some litigation related work in them. And, you certainly, could do that as well. I don't know why you went into doing, a tax law, it's people that do tax lot tend to. thinking a certain way and, it's a different thinking style out of cases and litigation, and, but if you like litigation, then, then it is something you should try.
[00:51:21] But what I would recommend would be, perhaps probably trying to, work in a smaller law firm, another option might be, that I could recommend would be. you could in one actually very good strategy. In my opinion, if you really want to transition to a federal clerkship and get into litigation, if you do a federal clerkship, the odds are very good that you can get hired as a litigation attorney after doing that.
[00:51:44] So what I would try to do probably is I would, if you don't want to give up the job security. working, in the County some right now to try working in a smaller law firm. And also the pay is probably going to be much better than a lot of the jobs that we get. Then another [00:52:00] thing that you could do, which you could, start applying for maybe state court clerkships and other types of clerkships, or state court, public defender, or state court, prosecutor jobs, that it's throw you in and give you a litigation experience right away.
[00:52:14] Once you got that experience, then you can start applying once you got there, immigration status resolved, to federal judges, to clerk for them. And then after the federal courtship, you probably wouldn't have any problem, getting the litigation job. And that would be a way that I would do it out of that would give you a lot more security.