10.27 - LLM
[00:00:00] Today I'm going to be talking about LLM degrees and I know a lot of people, it's obviously a huge industry, so a lot of people go get LLMs. And so what I'm talking about today is it's a very important topic and I think you may have a decision to make in your career at some point about whether or not you'll get an LLM and and if it's useful for you or not.
And so that's you know what I'm going to be talking about today and we'll get started. So the first thing is w when you look at magazines and websites that talk to cater to law students, one of the things you're gonna see you always see is just. Lots of schools and other things offering LLM programs.
And it's very popular obviously for law schools to offer our love programs. And it's very popular for a lot of people to go to them. And and you know what the last time I did this, which wasn't too long ago I couldn't believe it. It's like going to a bizarre where I, everybody is trying to sell you something and and actually it's a ticket to success in career and a good career and all that sort of thing.
If you suddenly get an LLM [00:01:00] and and they come at you almost from every possible direction making it seem like everyone needs to know. And it's, and it's the most valuable thing you possibly could have. And and the thing, that's important to understand is that it doesn't cost a lot of money for a law school.
To give you an owl, they're basically taking their existing professors and their existing classrooms and just putting you in some classes and collecting a lot of tuition. And and so it's the law schools are making a lot of money when they send you to the LLM programs. And a lot of times they do offer you something very significant.
And so I'm not by any means saying that they're all bad things, but at the same time, you need to understand that you're, you're being asked to spend a lot of money on something and in many cases and not all, but in many cases what you're being done, this is con because the subject matter of the LM is pretty much whatever you're interested, whatever you are interested in.
To take your money and and give you a degree and and keep [00:02:00] in mind that the LLM degree is different levels of commitment. But at that age, different levels of difficulty to get at different schools and to get into. But for the most part they're not that difficult to get into.
And you can get an LLM in space law IP law without having any background in science or anything can get an LLM and health law, international law indigenous peoples law, financial services, law logistics and transportation, law tax law, environmental law, insurance, law, energy law, arbitration law, Homeland, and national security law education log in Aaron space law, not just space law corporate law, corporate compliance law fashion.
Yeah, exactly. Entertainment, law, sports law international sports law practice. If you want to be international about it biotech and genomics dynamics, law, animal law, global food law, inner cultural, human rights, law, cyber and telecommunications, [00:03:00] law, criminal justice law. And th there's just any pretty much anything that you can think of that they will offer you an LLM degree.
And one of the things to understand about these LM degrees, there's a lot of the topical areas are not things that you necessarily would need to learn in a, not allow M program to be to be good or to understand. That subject matter, they're almost just offering it to you to say that, who you've been exposed to that law, but most types of law that they're teaching are things that can be you can pick up in other ways they, attorneys have always picked up on the job or with a minimal amount of training and and they, a lot of times will seduce people into practice areas and things that we're where you're not necessarily going to get a job coming out of there.
And there's limited exceptions to it. And and I will talk about some of the alums that I think are good and there are some that are good. I I think that a lot of tax Lars for example, are supposed to have it's very important actually to get a degree in tax law. If that's [00:04:00] something you want to do in a, in an LLM, because you get a lot of extra exposure to tax law that you wouldn't necessarily.
And and law school and and it's almost a entrance requirement for a lot of people to have. So it's very important. Also it's important for you to get an LLM degree if you're a foreign attorney and you want to come and potentially get a job in the U S but notice that I said, foreign attorney have a job already lined up in the U S it's very difficult to get a job in the U S we just an LLM degree.
If you don't already have a job lined up. So it's a very it's when I say dumb, it's a dumb thing to do if you want to if you think it's going to help with your career for a lot of people I will tell you that I personally right now I'm in I'm taking year long programs at Stanford and Berkeley and different things related to business.
And I took some big, a long class at MIT over the summer and another one at Stanford. So it's not to say that there's anything wrong with learning. And I think that learning is actually [00:05:00] good. And and you can learn at all ages, but Going to get an LLM degree for for career advancement.
Isn't always the best thing. And that's what I'm going to talk about with you today. I don't necessarily think that it's a bad thing going to school and learning, cause I certainly do it myself, but for career advancement it's very difficult. It's not always the best thing. And again there's a couple of exceptions.
The first one is tax law. Most large law firms do require it. It's very specialized and the extras study is very meaningful. The second thing is foreign attorneys. If you're already working for an American law firm and you want to come to the United States where you have spouses in the United States that will give you citizenship and so forth, or you can be very well-served by getting out of.
I just want to be very clear at the outset that everyone on this call can understand this because or in this webinar, you may already, you may be a foreign attorney considering coming to the U S I think that it's great that you want to support the American law schools and give them money.
But at the same time, what I will say is that in, in most cases you are not going to be able to get a job in the U S [00:06:00] after completing your owl. Or during the time you're giving your outline, you can take the bar in California, you can pick the bar in New York and some other places, and you can get a bar to get a law degree, but you're spending a lot of time and money on something that may or may not pay off.
It's very difficult for foreign LLMs to get jobs in the United States. And I, and especially when they're not currently working in the United States there are law firms who will hire you for one year or two years, many times, but most of them will not give you. A permanent position and it's very rare.
So I just want you to make sure you understand that because it's a big risk and and it certainly can pay off in certain circumstances. And I have seen it pay off, but at the for the most part, it can be very risky. And and again, if you already have a job lined up in the U S and you are working for a us firm or you don't have an option not to relocate to the U S and you just want to get the, that for something, and that's fine too.
Some people their firms back home on it, and that's fine, but it's just a very risky [00:07:00] thing. You're going to have a very difficult time securing a job in the United States. I see, resumes all day long from foreign lawyers that want to work in the United States. We've got now lamps and.
And it's very difficult. Even when you went to very good schools internationally, it's very difficult. So you wouldn't, might've been first in your class at a great law school in Scotland or China, or, somewhere in the middle east or it does. I'm just making up locations and those aren't, there's nothing significant about those and it's still very difficult.
And when I say difficult, I mean that the odds are I knew a girl that had come out of Harvard law school's LLM program, which is very competitive to get into. And so a woman. Program. And she had was trying to get a job afterwards. And and basically I think she was one of the only people in her class, not, back then, I don't remember how large it was a couple of hundred, so it's very difficult to get positions coming out of programs.
And think about it. Why would a law firm what is your, what do you have to offer if you are a foreign attorney and trying to get a job [00:08:00] in in the U S you're not from the U S and that, that holds you back right away. Meaning he don't understand the culture, the people are Eric and that and that's okay to some extent, but you're not from the U S you need to be sponsored, which isn't an easy thing for law firms to do.
There's already a lot of competition in those firms for the same time. You generally don't have any special skills that the law firm needs meaning your skills are, from a foreign country that you have. And so there, and you're often experienced and so in trained a different way.
And so almost in every instance the law firms prefer to hire American attorneys. Now, there are exceptions to that. I'm not saying that there's not, but with the two exceptions I described, it's often very counterproductive it more often than not it's going to highlight many negatives about you.
Those negatives me are, that you believe that an LLM degree is going to help you meaning, and I hate saying this, but you're a sucker for that program and you think that's the way to success now. Are there ways that you know, most people that are us attorneys to get LLMs, unless [00:09:00] it's in tax law, in some cases, I think there's some other ones that are helpful to, that I've seen.
And I'll talk a little bit about those later, but you may want to look like you're from, the country. A lot of times attorneys that didn't go to good us law schools get an alum from a good law school. That's much easier to get and then get an into the actual, really good law school.
And they get that on their resume and they think it's going to make them look they went to a good law school, which it doesn't, it just highlights the fact that they didn't it also shows to graduate degree. So attorneys are really expected to be more intellectual than practical, more practical than intellectual.
So it makes you look like an an intellectual as opposed to. Someone who's practical and just gets out there and practice this law. And then it highlights the fact that you may rather sit in a classroom than practice law. And and typically I remember I was working in a New York law firm, a prestigious one over my second summer, and I had a clerkship and with a federal judge and I was talking to a partner about it.
And they were like if you were, if this was crevasse, they would tell you, [00:10:00] you're crazy to go do a clerkship because it's not going to help you. It's much more prestigious being a cravat and working for a federal judge. And so it's rich, I don't necessarily agree with if you want to be a litigator, but there is some, I understand where they're coming from.
And so the idea is too, is that, if you're a good attorney, why would you want to sit in a class. And, I brought her up on the loss of more than practice law. That's, when you're young, you're motivated and so forth, that's the idea. It's a pretty insane degree for a lot of people.
And the reason I'm critical of it is that it generally never works out.
Attorneys believe it will when they get it. And and that's the problem with it. And that just puts them farther in debt. And they're chasing the prestige of the legal profession and it doesn't really get them there. And again, there's a lot of exceptions a couple of major ones.
The first one again, is tax law. To some extent, I think there's, if you have a healthcare background and you go to law school and you've got to help out, that can be helpful, I've seen that be helpful and even education sometimes. If you have an education background prior to going into law school, it's [00:11:00] in most cases, something that will set your career and your bank account backward, not forward, that's the problem with it. And you're going to spend money for something that in many cases is not is somewhat worthless. It's not help you. And that's not always the case. Again, it's not going to help your career, but it may help your knowledge base and your understanding of the subject matter, which I think is a great reason to get in that alone.
And if that's what you're interested in it, but from a career standpoint you're not, and that's not going to help you in most cases. And unless you think the knowledge well and and you may be better served not having now I'm at all. Okay. And so I, again, if you are listening to what I'm saying I've had it.
I don't like the fact that so many people from around the world are getting ripped off taking these online programs. I think it's a shame. I, you, we get calls every day from people that are desperate, that are LMS, that are unemployable with these degrees. And they're trying to stay in the U S and they're desperate, and they're trying to figure out what they need to do.
And and it's sad because there are people that have spent their families [00:12:00] have spent a lot of money sending these programs. They haven't been able to get positions after coming out of them. And then at the same time, I think that a lot of people buy into the propaganda about these programs and and fall forward and education, by the way.
It's not portrayed that way in anything that really is that way. They always try to portray it the opposite. It's a huge business. There's so much money involved and in schools make a lot of money from these programs. And and so I'm on the front lines, watching people that have problems with these degrees.
And I see the failures stacking up one after another. And I don't like it. And again, there's very few exceptions most when I say most, almost all for lawyers, LLM degrees, you're not going to end up getting positions, bus, and are basically just given, giving large checks to law schools.
If you look at. The ranks of the attorneys that are getting LLMs and that our owl labs and major us law firms and big cities the ones that you do find there's usually some special reason that they're there, if they're foreign out. And it's just, it's not as common.
And you need to think about, why would a [00:13:00] law firm want to hire someone like this? It's also not necessarily the best thing for their clients because their clients w often would prefer a us attorney that, is more likely more like them. And and it's th there's exceptions to people that get jobs, but you need to, in most cases, if you dig and I want you to understand this.
If you dig it's that the person just didn't get an LLM degree and then get a job here. There's some sort of connection or reason for them that they got hired. What's important for you to understand many times they have a connection to the firm prior to coming over for something happened. But, again, for some people that can work, but for most it doesn't.
And so you really you need to educate yourself this webinar's a way to educate you. I would love it by the way, if M programs work because I'm someone that places attorney. So if law firms would hire LLMs that I was trying to promote to them then I would say all sorts of positive things about them, but they don't.
So I'm, this is where I'm coming from. I have no reason to [00:14:00] tell you I have nothing against any law schools. I have no problems with. Education, I'm just telling you from a career standpoint, it can be a very risky thing. And you may be being misinformed by other people. I'm in the market, I've placed thousands and thousands of attorneys.
I have a company of, in one case, right now, it's, a few hundred people that all we do are place attorneys. And and in law firms I obviously have an incentive to tell you about ways to get jobs. And I want, I would love it if I that up to get good jobs, but they can't, and that's the problem.
And they of course do occasionally, but it's very rare compared to, coming out of any other law school and any other, like a JD program, for example, which is a good use of your time and money, if you're a foreign attorney. So a lot of attorneys are getting taken advantage of, I think I schools the schools want to make money.
They want to pay salaries to professors. They want to stay afloat. And just from a business standpoint, you should think about how does a law school make money with these [00:15:00] people. And basically what happens. All they have to do is put you in a classroom and give you a couple of classes and they can take, huge two inch in face from you.
And so it's not very expensive for a law school to run and all them program. If you think about the cost of one professor it's some, a lot of them are part-time. You could have a couple part-time professors and one or two full-time professors and three or four L students would pay their salary.
And the classes are, much bigger than that. So it's a money thing for a lot of things. And and the reason I'm using these harsh words is they just do a lot of damage to people. People, and, the law schools, aren't really there to deal with the disappointment, the people that don't get jobs.
And again, the law schools are just offering education. They're not responsible for getting new jobs and they're not in a, they're not bad people or bad groups. That their job is to tell education, but I'm just telling you from your standpoint there's no reason if you want to come over to the U S from a foreign country, make money, or improve your career and dramatically, and get jobs in the LLM is [00:16:00] necessarily going to help you that much.
And most cases it's not a badge of honor, it's it almost shows, you've, you couldn't get a job and you're floundering and you're going off the academic side. And and why would a law firm want someone like that? And I can't, I there's positives to it.
A lot of times, people that can alums are very motivated and want to be part of the U S legal system. But, you just need to think about that. LLM degrees often do not carry a lot of prestigious. So I just want you to understand that and it's important. Getting the LLM from Harvard law school does not mean Harvard law school.
And NYU L M does not mean NYU law school and so forth. It's actually very competitive to get into Harvard LLM program. And NYU programs are competitive somewhat as well, but at the same time, it doesn't, it's not, you don't need to take the LSATs, you don't need to have the same type of degrees and they're not as competitive, I think it into as notes.
So you can get into a lot of these LLM programs and believe you make the class in up your resume by going to schools like Harvard and while you're your Georgetown for y'all album [00:17:00] degrees, but it's. Necessarily the truth the JD programs are very competitive, but the LLM programs are not as competitive now.
Harvard is Harvard and NYU and so forth and they're good schools. It's nothing you're still getting the the education, so that, and that's actually a very positive, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but you're definitely not getting the same pedigree because the pedigree comes from the competition.
Many times of having gotten into that and the people who your peers are. And and so an LLM, for example, it doesn't hurt law schools, us news rank can because the law school doesn't even have to provide data in LMC, U S mirrors. They don't need to report the profiles will diner in classes and they don't need to report well, I'm a statistic.
So if you get into an LLM program, then they may tell you the hustle active, they were, but it doesn't. That that you're really, you've gotten into the school, like in the same way. There unaccountable of the marketplace, I, when it comes to LLMs and this really enables them to admit just about anyone who can pay the tuition.
And again, some of them are very competitive [00:18:00] Harvard. It's a competitive one. There's, competitive LLM programs. They're not it's not easy to get into every LLM program. I'm not making that. But again it's the idea is that when it comes to alums, a lot of these they can admit a lot of people and law firms understand this.
And if you come out of Columbia or Harvard or, Chicago or Stanford or something would let now allow them. But it's not like the law firm is going to treat you like you're a graduate of the law school. If they're going to. Thing and it's more they're just not going to be as interested in you.
They understand that, the people that work in these law firms that typically got w went to, good law schools and they didn't get out of that. So they just went straight to a great law school and and and they typically did very well in those law schools.
And that's it. They took the they excelled compared to their peers and the, in the required courses and so forth, and that's how they get their proceed. They don't get their prestige by I do over and and they're just going straight through and they're motivated. And so they'll typically look at you and judge whether or not you could have gotten a position with them [00:19:00] before getting outlet.
Now, if you're an exceptional student and and you go to a great law school and then you want to get extra experience, can LLM and something that's interesting to you. Law firms will look at that and may, may think that's okay, but for the most part they will. Even if you have great qualifications, they're going to wonder why you've got to know them.
And the problem is with an LLM, is that it's also academic in nature and and law firms again, do not, you have to be a very good student to become, to get into a good law school. And then you have to be a good student in law school, but it's more of a practical degree.
It's not something that you know is academic. And again, there's a lot of very smart attorneys who get it all lamps. Frankly, much smarter than, me. It's yet to get into some of these programs. If you get an LLM from Yale, so it's an extremely prestigious degree, but at the same time, it's academic in nature.
And and it's it's not necessarily the best thing. And I know one attorney, for example, we've got an LLM from Harvard the, he did so poorly in his SATs. He couldn't even get an accredited American law school, meaning he couldn't get into a law school that [00:20:00] you know that w even one of the worst law schools, he had to go to one that was unaccredited, and then he, but he eventually got into Harvard.
You can get into these programs even without going through a real law school if you're in the U S and I've seen people graduated near the bottom of their classes, get, tax law alums from NYU most LLMs are a backdoor and it prestigious law schools, but that agrees to give, to not translate into the prestigious attorneys think they do.
And again, I want to be very clear, like I think education is great. And someone who, at the moment, I'm literally taking classes, at Stanford business school and like Berkeley and all these great places. And I took them at MIT summer and Stanford on the summer. So I think education is awesome.
And and but I'm not doing these classes and so forth. So I can put degrees. I guess people that take these classes to put the back that they took them and he could certificates and stuff on their their resumes. But for me, it's not a resume builder. It's just [00:21:00] something that I do cause I want to learn.
So if you want to learn this stuff, I think all the power to you. I think that's awesome, but it don't think, expect it to help you and it may even hurt you as my, and and that's, what's scary about them and LLM degrees associates back that, a lot of them don't even require to be physically on campus.
NYU is executive tax program allows the students to watch the classes in the computers from anywhere in the world and only requires a new shelf for exams, the campus a few times during the program. So that's and again, I don't know that's a bad thing. A lot of stuff is that way now, but that's one of the problems with that.
That's the next thing is LLM degrees will often offer very little substance of use to actual liars. Lawyers are typically paid to do research and their ability to be smart and figure stuff out. And so getting an LLM program and an environmental law is not going to make you a good environmental attorney or give you the right to practice this branch of law.
It's just, it's what it is. It's a it's just not going to do that. There's very little taught in any LM program that you can't pick up in your day-to-day practice if you join a good law firm. And in [00:22:00] fact in many alum programs you're likely to learn very little at all.
So that's something to, to think about are typically you're, it's the ability to be a good attorney is really about researching different matters, new things. And if you get an LLM program, environmental law, which actually, I, for some attorneys, you know it may not be a bad idea if you're interested in the practice here, but just unexpected to get you into a a better from having and what important, what is really important?
I think in when you learn to practice law, it's not the type of skills you'll learn in an academic setting, what's important is your ability to figure out ideas and to parse through the truth versus the not true to be a good writer and to work on a certain way. And and so these were, we'd be very good at transactions.
And so you're not gonna always get these types of skills in the lecture hall and most competent attorneys in all practice areas are able to. Move around between different types of work. And it's important to ask yourself, if you think before a good attorney does a certain type of work, he or she says, Hey, this issue involves issues of corporate law.
I better get an [00:23:00] LLM before I tackle it. That's, that's just not what happens. They go in, they figure something out and attorneys are paid to think about and figure out problems in all practice areas, but, whatever your practice area is, you're expected to become an expert in it.
So being a good attorney, you're not suddenly a good attorney because you've got an LLM, you're a good attorney because you're able to figure things out. And you learn the basics of what it takes to figure out problems in law school, but you don't learn how to be an attorney. And it's the same thing with all of them.
Like you're not going to learn how to be an attorney again and LLM. You're just basically going to get a little bit more exposure. And the other thing that's important. And again, I have nothing against loss professors or academia because I love it. But, it's a very kind of intellectual being a law professors, intellectual, they have the freedom to think about ideas and stab grass and all these sorts of things.
And the issue is that most law firm attorneys aren't like that they're much different. They're working for pain clients who are interested in solutions and so they need to be, quick and on their feet and give accurate answers and they [00:24:00] can't afford to go out on the limb.
And I, I spend time with law professors and I think that they're awesome, but at the same time, most of them aren't the sort of attorneys that would do that well because they need to be very, direct and succinct and stuff when they're practicing law. And and they're solving real world problems.
And the most law firms believe, and I'm gonna. Saying this in a negative way, because I have a lot of respect for law professors and so forth. But if your goal is to practice law in a law firm, you really need to get as far away as possible, as quickly as possible from law professors and how they think about things.
And because they're intellectual and law firms are not like that. And then in there, they're smart enough to respect it. And they do respect that sort of thinking. But most law professors are not the kind of people that would practice law. That's, again, I'm not trying to be negative about law professor.
Cause I have a lot of respect for the profession, but most of them would be, get eaten up alive inside a law firm and their thinking style. You don't want their thinking style to rub off on you. And I'm going to [00:25:00] talk a little bit about some LLMs now. But the, just real quick, so you understand the way law professors think law professors have a lot of freedom of thought and when you're solving client problems, many times you have to think just a little bit different than they do.
And they're very smart. They're you know I personally would much rather be a law professor than a practicing attorney probably. Cause I think the work that they do is so full and and I have a lot of respect for law professors, but at the same time, this style of thought does not work in law firms.
Law firms need to be, just very direct, very fast, very their conclusions and then they need to take sides. And it's just a different form of thought than this really permissible and most not permissible with at work that it's a different way of thinking about issues that then law firms have one of the dumbest alums out there and there's a lot of dumb ones I think is an element of intellectual property.
One of the most baffling things is a lot of people go into these LLM programs with undergraduate degrees and things like English or political science IP laws. Science-based [00:26:00] so most with the exception of trademark law, which isn't, which doesn't take that long to learn most IP law involves you need to actually have a science background.
You need to get science degrees in order to practice it. And those science degrees tend to be in things like are you gonna fly this? The science degrees tend to be in things like electrical engineering or biology or whatever. And you need to have those degrees before you before you become an IP attorney.
So you can't be an IP attorney really with a liberal arts background, unless you want to do trademark or something like. You typically need to be taking the patent bar. And so getting an LLM degree and IP lies is really dumb. You should probably go get a science degree first and then take the path.
That's what you want to do. Even taking classes at a community college and subjects that would help you qualify for the patent bar would be smarter than getting a, LLM degree in ultra poverty law in most cases. So the next thing but understand, and this is just something for, and again, I apologize to law schools, I'm not [00:27:00] trying to be mean to them.
But they're heavily promoted many times because they are cash cows for law school. Again, law schools are businesses and and they have to be businesses in order to stay open. You've probably heard of all the law schools that have had problems and so forth and and law schools or businesses they have to.
Reports their graduation, graduate employment rates, or average SATs and so forth. And because they're required to do so for, places that rank them. They also need to maintain a certain level of quality to look desirable to other law students, into recruit faculty which is very important.
They need to they need to have money to pay their faculty. They need to have money for their libraries and all sorts of things and to look good, but but the most important thing for most law schools is to have the most prestigious classes they can on paper Paul important to law schools.
And it's pretty funny, like when I talked to the law school administrators of how waffle alum and they all say they, they, 1 73 points, 6 11, 3 0.7, like they, there's just a certain kind of number that they're all looking for. And once I have. You're pretty much attractive to the [00:28:00] best law schools and they're all competing for you.
And and it's those members that's very important to them. A lot of schools would do all sorts of things to make sure that they have the best statistics, they will shrink classes when they don't have enough applicants with the best numbers, they will offer scholarships to people that have the best numbers.
They just need to have the best statistics in order to be, to look good on paper for employers. And that's just not from employers, but for, rating people and and for attracting professors and students. And and, but none of that really matters with an LLM program and an LLM program.
It's just a way for them to suddenly bring in a lot of students and charge a lot of money and and not have be under the microscope in terms of the quality people they're admitting as long as you pay tuition these programs are not regulating the same way. So they can just bring up, they're not ranked the same way by outside ranking agencies and the ABA and so forth.
So they can simply make up subjects and bringing whoever has the money to pay, which think about it. If you had a business as a law school, you'd do the same thing. So I'm [00:29:00] not criticizing law firms for doing a lot of schools for doing this. The the real beauty too, is a lot of times in the LLM program, two law schools don't even have to offer any classes beyond what they're already doing.
They simply bring in more students and have them sit in on these existing classes and then give them these degrees. And again, I'd say they're worthless here but they're not always worthless. But that's just it is. One of the things that the acronyms for LM is lawyers losing money, which is funny.
And a lot of them we'll just make up the topics. They have intercultural human rights. Law was one. I don't know if it's still there. They're in the business and and they have to have P they have to have products to appeal to people in different niches. So that's important for a lot less law school conserved businesses.
And again, there's nothing wrong with any of this, but it's, the question is it gonna help you? And if they can't sell their name which, Harvard of course can then they can find a topic that may interest you like space law, who, which actually I probably is a real branch of law, but it doesn't matter.
They're just they're businesses and they're going to offer whatever selves. And the genius of these programs is that the law schools ultimately are [00:30:00] not accountable. They're not accountable because of the, and the, if they hire you, if they bring you into the JD program, they're going to be accountable for the graduation rate for what your numbers are on paper and so forth, but in an L M program they're just, there's no accountable.
They don't even have to, or offer scholarships like they do to bring in the best people. They can, you're there for money. That's important to understand the next things to understand that also is a, and again, this is not a mean thing to say, but it is a mean thing to say, but you need to understand that none of the best lawyers generally will have Al degrees.
And why wouldn't they, not a single U United States Supreme court justice has an L under undergrade. Why would they in fact I, if you think about it I don't know if you could name any nationally known attorney with an LLM degree. I'm not saying they're not any, I just, I don't know.
Well-known USA, American attorneys that have gone that far with that lens. There's tax attorneys in big law firms that happen. And again, it's almost a requirement in a lot of large law firms, but other than that, there's typically very few of them in a major firm like [00:31:00] Skadden Arps if they, they figured out that if you're smart enough to work there, the last thing in the world you want to do is teach someone to learn what, why you can earn a great income in the process.
So that's why would you want to do that? But, and same thing, with a lot of other law firms where you could pick off all that stuff. I remember by the way when I did, when I worked in New York, there were a lot of the attorneys didn't even tax attorneys didn't have of them.
So I don't know. I think that stuff that you can just pick up, but it is a good degree for the most part. If you want to work with. Regarding law firm you generally want to look the same way that the attorneys who work there look on paper. What that means is you should look like the other attorneys who got their JDS from the best law schools they can get into did their best in law school and then moved down with their lives.
Good lawyers often do knock it out of the lamps because they don't have to the best liars also. Typically don't have time to get out loud, cause they're too busy, practicing law are earning money and working on more important things for them. So these are just, again, I'm not trying to be harsh, shy.
I don't like saying these things. I just and because I [00:32:00] understand that a lot of people's dreams are wrapped up in getting out of lamps and again I'm taking, two in two graduate programs right now where I'm learning. Different business issues, but I'm not doing it for the degrees or the, the I'm doing it cause I want to learn.
And so if you want to learn, there's nothing wrong with that, but I'm just telling you that it can actually hurt you to some extent. So if you have a LLM degree in your resume most law firms will assume you're a foreigner which is okay. There's nothing wrong being a foreign in the U S obviously everybody that came here from foreign countries, but most people they get out lamps in the United States are foreigners.
Again, I have nothing against foreigners. When you get an LLM you're typically going to be studying in a class that's likely filled with foreigners. And if a law firm sees an LLM in your resume, most will jump with inclusion that you don't have us citizenship. And you're gonna run into all sorts of sponsorship and they're gonna think, they're gonna run to all sorts of sponsorship issues as well.
Most law firms do not have time for that. There's plenty of people that want to work in them, so they don't really need to, hire LLMs and so [00:33:00] forth. And so once they see that they'll typically move on you can explain to law firms, if they see an alum on your resume, that you're not a foreigner.
But once they see the element of resume, most won't even take you seriously. Generally the reason foreigners get on a lamps and come over to the United States because enables them to practice law, take the bar in California, in New York. And if they get hit the lottery and get hired, but most Gump most won't get hired.
LLM degree is basically a what you would call a remedial degree that allows someone from a foreign country to qualify to work in the United States, or it can allow you, if you didn't, don't have good qualifications to put a good law school on your resume. People who go to good law schools and get good jobs, don't turn around and go to back to law school, to get an L M a, an animal law or anything else for that matter.
A corporate attorney in New York city is not going to go and suddenly get an LLM in corporate law after practicing for a year. It's just almost unheard of. And why would they, it just doesn't make any sense. And so why would you lower yourself to a degree like this don't on YouTube, so it's almost showing your weakness many times you [00:34:00] could get it as one of the problems I have with that.
And and then finally I don't like saying this. If you think you need to rehab your career by getting an LM maybe you should consider another career and I'm not trying to be harsh here. I'm just trying to be honest. But the problem is there's so many good attorneys out there and you may want to really be an attorney in which case you should are you made, feel like a real calling to it, or like you have natural abilities to go.
In which case there's nothing wrong with you practicing law, you should be doing exactly what you're doing, but there's just far too many good attorneys out there. And the market is very competitive. And you have to realize, that, you're competing with a lot of people.
And is that the right? Is that the right thing for you? One thing that I've noticed, and I want to just bring this up real briefly, cause I believe it's very important is that. Everyone is typically very good at something. I don't know what it is, but everyone has special skills.
Everyone has, you almost everyone in the world that I've met. And I think, I'm a strong believer in the fact that, God or whatever the universe gives everyone some sort of [00:35:00] skill that they're very crowded. And and I remember when I was in high school, I I thought about all these people that I knew and I realized that every single person had one skill that they were good at.
One person was a great, very good at acting. And another person was very good at math. And another person was very good at being persuasive. Another person had very good business skills. So everyone is gifted with all these different skills and abilities. And I, and you are too.
And so the practice. It is a gift to some people are naturally fit for it and other people aren't. And and so I don't know what side of that aisle you fall on and maybe, that you are very good at it. In which case, getting an all am is not going to hurt you and your confidence should push you through.
But but if you're doing it because you're not having a lot of luck in your career, you are you're stuck or something. You may be stuck for a reason because what happens if you're good at something is, in, in law firms, what happens is you go there and if you're very good at whatever you do.
And you do a good job. Everyone gives you work. And then when you do work for [00:36:00] clients ask for you to be on their matters. And then if you do very good work and then those clients refer other people to you, and suddenly you have a lot of business, this is what being an attorney is about.
And so you have to be, it has to be a natural fit for you to some extent, or you have to get very good at it. And if you don't that's not good. Then maybe you should be doing something else. You need to, you want to be, do it the best of whatever you can. And I've seen so many attorneys become, wildly successful doing other things besides practicing law or practicing a different type of law than they're practicing.
So just think about that. LLM is not going to change if you're not having any S if you're not doing well for a moment that you need to think about other options you're getting the LLM degree by many times is highlighting your current shortcomings.
Maybe that you're not an American citizen or didn't go to good American law school. You're not always helping herself. And you may be spending money that because you're in a profession where you're already at a disadvantage and that's what I, one of the things I don't like about it and the broader issue is that it almost telegraphs weakness people should pursue careers.
They're good [00:37:00] at where they have a lot of potential, not careers where they're always admitting their weakness right out of the gate. And again, I like the idea of being resilient. I liked the idea of learning new things. I like the idea of being good at what you do and so forth. I'm not, I have nothing against getting Al for a lot of reasons, but at the same time attorneys, most attorneys have so many talents in different things.
But, when people go into things that they like, and that are natural fits for them, they can do so well. And and so Y for your foreign attorney, if you want to work in the United States, isn't an attorney being an attorney the right way to do it. I dunno. But very few foreign attorneys ever good jobs in United States after LLM degree, some of them do I, don't know how they do it, but they, if you want something bad enough, I'm sure you can figure out how to do it.
Most attorneys that get El and degrees and a lot of topics are unlikely to give positions with no subject matters. Again, there are exceptions and some of the exceptions I've seen have been I've seen exceptions for education law. I've seen exceptions for like a Rissa and employee benefits.
I've seen [00:38:00] exceptions for tax. I've seen exceptions for health care law, but in most cases, for healthcare law, people already had experienced. And healthcare prior to going to law school and education law was the same thing. And and so there are exceptions and, you should look and ask questions if you're going to an LLM.
And I don't know all the exceptions. And but I do know that I place people in large firms, small firms and every type of firm. And I don't know, but I don't know the exceptions. There's also a lot of successful people who went to law school and did not practice law. And and those people are important to talk about.
And so there's nothing wrong with that, if that's something about that, but the ads are pretty, pretty good in my opinion, that's a lot of money, a lot of drive and a lot of effort and energy to get an Alabama. If you're motivated to get an album, I think the odds are good that you would do much better putting that drive into another.
And so here's the issue with the LM that I think is that the Telegraph's weakness, not the strength most of the time, and this doesn't help you. It's just, it's kinda like they say, oh, this [00:39:00] person's an L this is an LLM. This isn't the LLM. And they put you into that box. And and you'd rather not be in that path.
The box you want to be lawyers are paid to Telegraph strength and so you're also paid to Telegraph your strength. And it's the reason you need to be able to tell ground strength is with yourself. That's the most important person to start with when you're telegraphing strength.
And when lawyers are hiring liars, they don't like it when the lawyer telegraphs weakness that you need to be able to help graph strength and the LLM can Telegraph weakness in a lot of cases. And I hate to say all this. It's not a nice thing to say. I'm just telling you how it's.
Th the other thing is lawyers are not supposed to be calmed and are supposed to protect other people from being hot. The LLM program often sells hope and it sells hope that the attorneys getting this out alum are going to be able to change their careers and employment prospects, and so forth and suddenly be much better off.
And and I personally don't always like that the advertisements for alum programs are often quite exciting. They're often in big cities or by the beach or in front [00:40:00] of, important fleet people and stuff, or I dunno, but and they make it look sexy on the subject.
And I in many cases, people are buying into something they're buying into a dream. They want to see themselves. And and that's one of the big problems. I've been conned before I've paid more than sticker price for cars and made all sorts of mistakes.
I've but LLM is and I've made lots and lots of mistakes, especially when I was younger. I'm an LLM is often the kind of cons for most attorneys. It's, you're taking, you're giving your money to someone that's a hundred percent unaccountable. If you go to a if you go to a law school that for a JD program, when you asked them their employment statistics, though, roll them right out and tell you, but if you ask some kind of LLM program, they don't have to say anything.
They can just tell you whatever they want. No again, this is harsh, if you get an LLM degree, you're often showing that you've kinda gotten suckered to some extent. And how can you be trusted with the future of your clients and so forth if you were already easily. And ready to put that on your resumes, if it were going to manage a large, as opposed to protect others, need to put them by an [00:41:00] example.
In conclusion I don't like say negative things about LLM programs but in, in most cases the law schools that are taking your money they're taking it because they can get away with it. They know the degree offers you very little and they're selling you something that does not translate in the value of the market and Walton hurt as opposed to help you.
And again if you're doing it for knowledge and not for something else for career advancement, then I'm all for it. If you can afford it. But for most people, they're not they don't offer scholarships because they're not, there's not the same drive to attract the best people like there are with traditional JD programs.
It's about. And it's about money and profession, where the institution of it's taking your money, it's supposed to be teaching you to protect and advocate for others in society. And and so in many cases, I don't think that's right. It's also sad because I think that a lot of people believe that the degree and the extra education will be help, help them and be more effective and make them much more valuable members of the workforce.
And education generally is more [00:42:00] helpful than not, but the opposite is true of a lot of LLM degrees, so the degree generally harms people and the financial cost is, the lost opportunities. And the fact that it can often actually appear like a black mark in your resume after your.
I've been a legal recruiter pretty much my entire career. I've worked with a lot of LLMs and and most attorneys I can tell you without lamps are not employable and most law firms they just, it's not looked upon the way you would want it to be. And and then this, if it's the education you want, I think it's good.
I think if you haven't in the United States to work, it's good. If you're foreign. If you are in a practice area where you're very interested in it, where you believe that the LM was going to provide you extra knowledge, it's going to be helpful. It's good, or tax law analysis, but but if you're out in that situation it may not be a good decision.
And again I loved the value of education and learning. I spend a lot. My time doing learning and most successful people [00:43:00] out there. W Warren buffet apparently spends half of his day learn and, or, and, so you learning is extremely important and a valuable exercise, but my concern is just from the career standpoint, what this algorithm can do for you.
And I don't think for most people, it's going to help you very much. I it's, if it's your only shot at working in the U S and you really want to work there as a foreign attorney, then that may be a good idea, but for most people it's not. And again, I apologize for not saying positive things about it.
I just believe that it hurts a lot of people, and it's a good experience. If you're a formal foreign country coming over and meeting people to classes and so forth, but it's not always the best use of your time, because it may not, it's probably not going to get you a job. Okay. So I will take a quick break for a couple minutes and maybe two to three minutes.
And then when I come back, I will answer questions. There's you know, it looks like there's going to be a lot of questions today, so I'm probably not gonna be able to answer everyone's questions. But I'll answer as many as I can, I just have a hard stop in a little bit and I certainly appreciate everyone being here today.
And and if I don't get [00:44:00] to your questions this week I will get to them either next week for the firearm, because well,
Pretty much.
All right, let's go down. Questions right now. Let me just see here. So I will start with it's back here,
a lot of questions here, but the first one second, because the first question is how do you prepare for a law firm? That, that's a good question. One of the things about preparing for law firm interviews is it is important to make sure that you when you're preparing for law firm interviews that you ask yourself, there's always three questions.
It's the first one is they're asking is can you do the job meaning, do you have the skills and so forth? And it typically, if they brought you in for an interview, then they can the next one is will you do can you be managed? So being managed means, are you going to do work the way that they want the work done?
Then the next one after that is will you do the the job long-term so they want to understand whether or not they believe that you'll stick around for a long-term. Just give me [00:45:00] one second. I want to pull something up here.
Second, I can just picking up something here too. I'm trying to find an article I wrote.
And and then the next one is should I, will you get the job long-term can you be managed? Do we like you as another one? And those are four questions. One is for the most important, and I think that, you should ask, so the, can you do the job is really from your resume.
So they're always going to be looking at that. So that's not a way really to prepare, but you need to make sure you, if you have that in your bag then that'll show the law firm that you can do that. And then the other one is, can you be managed? But one of the big mistakes that a lot of people make when they go into interviews is they tend to talk about themselves and they give the law firm the flavor that they may not be the sort of person that can be managed, meaning that sort of person that is, is too headstrong that, wants to do things their own way.
And that sort of thing, so that if you give the law firm that impression you may often have a lot of problems, and this is really the number one thing that gets people disqualified from law firms is, with [00:46:00] their ability to be managed. The other thing about, can you do the job?
It's usually on your resume, but doing the job may require you to work a lot of hours. It may require you to work with a lot of people Do you fit in this kind of another one, but it's not for you. Like we like you. And that sort of thing. So you need to, when you go into a law firm interview, you need to make sure that you come across as someone that is willing to do what they want being managed means you're, also the same thing, but it means, being able to follow orders, being able to do things the way they want you to and so forth.
Will you do the job? Long-term, that's an important one. That means, is this something you're committed to, is it, did they foresee you sticking around in the longterm or trying to do something else? And if they believe that you're going to do something else and and they you won't necessarily want to do the job in the long-term then they probably won't hire you.
So law firms do not want people that are going to go there and leave and go and house and so forth. It's important for them. To it's important for law firms to refer from a law firm perspective. That you want to do [00:47:00] it. And the next thing is, do we like you? And I hate to say that, but it do we, like you means, really do you fit in, do we see you as someone that is our friend and will be our friend, and that will get along with the group?
Are you like our other attorneys? And do you fit in and in, in an age of where there's diversity and so forth it's just, it's not about the color of your skin or your background. It's about whether or not you share similar personality, characteristics, and whether or not they like you.
And they proceed with someone that will get along. If you go into an interview and you talk about, but do nothing, but talk about yourself and how great you are, the law firm is probably not going to like you. If you go into an interview and you try to bond with people and you ask a lot of questions they're probably going to like you, if you come in and, th this is a very important thing to prepare.
So when you prepare for an interview, You really want to remember that the law firm is not really that interested in hearing about you? They're more interested in whether or not they like you, if you're saying things that make them like you they're interested in if, whether or not you're saying things that [00:48:00] will tell them if you can do the job, long-term they're more interested in whether or not you're saying things that show that you'll follow instructions.
And then they're also asking you things about whether or not you can do the job. And those are a couple of the more part in things. I would ask yourself those questions and if that works, and then make sure you do that. Okay. Let me just see here. Okay.
Okay. So one of the questions here is it worth getting an owl lamp, going to start that, is it worth.
And then now all that. Okay. The answer to that question I think an LLM is most useful in a lot of cases as a us attorney, again, if you are for people that are interested in academics, it can be very, a very good thing. So I don't know if I talked about that before, but if you're interested in academics it can be very good because it's it gives you more depth in your subject matter.
So that means if you want to teach law in the future it can also be very useful. If you what else you appear in a subject matter, my subject matter could be something like tax law where the [00:49:00] the LLM degree would be a very good thing to have in the long run and where most words a requirement of a lot of firms.
The other thing that I think would be worth getting to know them for is if you are just very interested in the subject matter there's nothing wrong with learning. And I think learning is a very good idea. I just don't think, if and so even at my age, I w I love learning.
I wouldn't mind getting an LLM and such X, but, at the same time, I'm not confident that I would want to get an LLM I wouldn't get an alum to help my career. And then if you're a foreign attorney and you just want to take the U S bar exam and I think you're doing an L on for that take the buyers.
Now that could be helpful. Foreign attorneys take the bar exam. That, that can be very helpful. I took the U S bar exam. But I wouldn't say that it's going to be very difficult for you to get a position. The other thing too, is there are certain practice areas where I think that the album, in addition to tax law can be helpful.
So I think like a Rissa is one, I think that just risks then you have healthcare law a few [00:50:00] others and those can be helpful for you as well. Those are a few ones that I think I would recommend to do it. So
the next question is let's see how difficult is an LLM.
And that in many cases will depend on the school you go to and and how much work they expect. They're typically, most alums of course are one year. So that's that, that saves you a lot of time. And and to traditionally they're not as difficult as JDS, but it, they can be difficult for a lot of attorneys who are coming from a foreign country with a different legal system.
So that as to one thing that I would think about in terms of your your, your, in your practice your career, let's see what else here. That's the question. What does a staff attorney and big law at staff attorney is typically someone who w is not on the partner ship crack at the law firm and has given the you know certain types of work to do on an ongoing basis of typically many times have a kind of a standard level of complexity.
So a lot of law firms will [00:51:00] bring in staff attorneys to do work that is almost a lower billable rate than a lot of the associates will do. And that could be many times trademark laws like that. Certain branches of employment law, sometimes discovery that they'll have staff attorneys do certain types of work, and then they will have full-time attorneys associates that on a partnership track to other types of work.
The benefit of being a staff attorney is many times. If you're a staff attorney then you typically will have a lot more freedom and that freedom means you'll typically have, certain hours that you will work. So the law firm will only have you work certain hours and and you will sometimes not be under the same pressure to, to, to Excel that the the new associate with be, and get business and so forth.
So you're just used for your skills but you're not expected to drastically improve and to, to network and so forth to get business or work. You will typically be on a on a path where you have a lot of predictability in terms of your hours and even the type of work that you do.
So you may be broadband to do just one type of work and and do that [00:52:00] on an ongoing basis. And a lot of. Actually like having staff attorneys, jobs and and staff attorney job, it can be very beneficial from a standpoint that you have a lot more predictability in terms of your hours and so forth and not as much as you might've seen associate.
Okay. The next question is for attorneys and law students what makes a good I went on the strike, this for attorneys and law students
and law students.
What makes a good example of a writing sample? And and that's a good question. Typically with a writing sample you have a couple of different options. One of the things you want to make sure that you do with writing samples is not divulge client confidences. You don't need to go overboard.
But typically in anything that was public meaning that is public to the public meaning w could be like a brief or something that you wrote. You can provide us a writing sample. You don't need to if you father with a court it's typically going to be public, unless it was filed under seal.
So a lot of times law firms want to see things that, you may have writ
