[00:00:00] This webinar today is about writing samples and that you provide to firms when when you're looking for a position and let me make sure I'm sharing the screen. [00:00:09] Perfect. Great. Give me one second here. Yeah. And and so we'll start talking about that right now. Just a couple of things just a little kind of housekeeping matters as we get started. Next week we'll be doing a webinar about talking about the, the state of the legal market, which is one of my favorite webinars of the year. [00:00:27] And we'll be going over the candidates that we got interviews for, not their names or anything, but different practice areas and tell you what the market looks like going into this year. And and then and that's actually a very popular webinar, so I hope you come to that one. [00:00:41] And with that I'll get started on this one also. One other thing I would like to say just as we get started is this is actually a very good week to start applying to jobs. If you're in the legal job market or, even if you're in if you're actively looking or if you're just looking, thinking about looking this is a fairly slow week but people do work this week. [00:00:59] And [00:01:00] even today and tomorrow if you're able to get your applications in to places that have new openings, are you have a very good chance of getting looked at because not a lot of people are applying to jobs right now, cause this is a slow time of year. So anytime the market's a little bit slow and people are slow, it's always a good time to be applying to. [00:01:16] So this question's a, this webinar is about we're talking about writing samples today and and writing samples or something that more often than not actually hurt people as opposed to helping them a lot of law firms ask for them and never look at them because they're more eager to hire people, but the ones that do look at them many times it can really hurt you in getting the positions. [00:01:39] And there are people inside of every firm whose job is to kind of review writing samples and they get their sense of authority many times from reviewing them. And and they have a reputation of many time. Making a high percentage of people not get jobs because of the writing the quality of the writing sample. [00:01:56] This is just an example of an email I received from a, [00:02:00] from not too long ago, says we're going to pass on this candidate was a tough call though. Everyone loved the candidate, thought the person I experienced for the best everyone we've interviewed so far the writing sample had typos and fragmented sentences, and this reflected negatively on the canvas attention to detail and their ability to proofread skills, essential our practice, please continue to search for us. [00:02:19] And writing samples really do have the potential to sabotage your candidacy. Also the way you. Write an email and so forth also has that potential people are looking for you to be to make mistakes and and if you make mistakes, it can hurt you quite a bit. I had an instance once where I was about ready to receive an offer at a firm and they discovered a date was off by a month on my resume in the writing. [00:02:42] The resume obviously is much different than a writing sample, but the day was off by a month. And it was something about graduation. I think when I graduated from law school, the graduation was in may and June and I put June and I interviewed with someone that went to the school and they said he graduated in may and June. [00:02:59] And they actually [00:03:00] thought that was a big deal. And I was just used to it as a matter of course, put in June down for those dates. People look at typos and stuff inside of law firms very seriously. And and so a writing sample is this big, long document that gives you the opportunity to make a lot of mistakes. [00:03:14] And so when you do turn your writing samples you have to be very careful. About what happens in terms of that writing step. And I remember once getting a law review article accepted and and really the only thing I had to do is just, take up a paper that I'd already written and spend a week or two and just proofread in it. [00:03:33] And so the more you proofread stuff, the better quality of work and the more your law review type of, work, you can turn out and and you would be surprised at how important proofreading is. In many large law firms, which I think a lot of young attorneys don't learn about until they get much older people spend you may be able to write a brief and, 20 or 30 hours, but the proofreading portion of fixing everything typically can take much more time than that. [00:03:58] It could take many [00:04:00] times weeks in terms of getting feedback and doing a good job. The quality of your writing how tight it is the absence of typos, the abs sense of words that have double meetings and so forth or, that are improper and the contexts are, and is hugely important. [00:04:15] And it's something that you need to make sure that you're doing a very good job when you turn in work. And it also is something that can make you. A very good attorney when you get good at it. And you typically will showcase how what the quality of attorney you are based on your writing and how how clear it is and how direct and so forth. [00:04:33] So you need to be very careful with that. And and a lot of people don't like writing samples and it's for that reason, because there's so much thought that goes into doing very good writing. And just to, a frequent question that I receive, and I just wanted answer it real briefly is that when you're doing a writing sample, you don't necessarily need to worry so much about privilege. [00:04:53] If you're writing something that's public then you don't need to do a lot of re redactions, meaning if it's something you filed court and your [00:05:00] name's on it, and you signed it if it's a memo or something along those lines you typically do need to take out the client's name, but you don't need to go into too much time. [00:05:08] The biggest thing is would that sort of information, the biggest thing you need to be concerned about is making sure that the writing samples of good quality. And as I said earlier, most people that interview you, aren't going to spend a lot of time focusing on writing samples. [00:05:21] And a lot of times they won't even be read law firms will just request them, but when they do read them it can really do you a lot of damage if you're making errors. And it can be in many cases, much more important than your resume. If you're looking for a position anything to do with any type of litigation, side of a law firm, pretty much what you're spending a majority of your time doing is going to be writing. [00:05:44] Because you're doing so much writing they take it very seriously. And and you have to put a lot of pride into your writing, especially if you're a litigator, because that's what the job is. Being able to write directly, being able to write without mistakes and so forth is hugely important. [00:05:58] One thing that I do and I'm [00:06:00] just telling you this, because I believe it's extremely important is I use systems like Grammarly, which is a, an online tool. You can buy a pro writing aid and others like that. And the reason that I use them is because they're pretty good at catching errors and I run everything through them. [00:06:16] And typically even if I'm sending along email I run everything through that because you don't want to make any errors if you possibly can help it. And it's very important to use those. And and the idea that, the way writing samples are scrutinized after interviews anytime I've had someone that I've hired that is a litigator and I've looked at their writing sample many times I decided that I don't want to hire them as much as I need them because of the writing sample. [00:06:42] Writing samples make a huge difference. Any litigator that I've ever hired, that's been a problem typically would have had a very bad writing sample. So writing samples are very important and the whole idea of being an attorney, which is a very important thing to understand one of the most important aspects of being an attorney is your ability to [00:07:00] do very, to write very clearly directly and without errors. [00:07:04] And a lot of people don't tell you that many times attorneys come out of, backgrounds and political science and things like that. And and they don't really realize that, but the better writers and the people that are more attention to detail is really a quality of the best firms. When you look at the firms, aren't as good many times, poor writing and mistakes. [00:07:22] It's very important. And taking the time to, make sure that all of your email and other written communications are as clear as stuff as they can be. This is extremely important and it makes a major difference in terms of your success. So I'm going to talk today just about some fairly simple writing sample tips. [00:07:40] And I'm also going to make sure, to give you some risks, ideas that can help not hurt the cannabis safe. So the first thing, as I said earlier is you really do need to proofread your writing sample multiple times. And and when I say proofread, not only do you use online tools and so forth, but to the extent you can you look at it from different [00:08:00] perspectives. [00:08:00] You look at it in the morning and then you look at it in the night and then you look at it the next morning you look at it the next night. You need to really make sure that when you turn in things. The language is very good, the difference between attorneys many times and the biggest and best firms and attorneys and the smallest firms is the amount of time and so forth that they put into the quality of their written work. [00:08:20] And so your written work needs to be outstanding. And and it really, even in your own firm if you're writing very well all the time to partners and other people that you work with and outside counsel and outside people, it's going to make a big difference. They're going to think more highly of you, and it's almost the way you look personally, the way you look when you're right is also very important. [00:08:42] Your work needs to be, completely approved and error-free lots of attorneys lose jobs when they're young, because they don't do the best work. They believe they're excited to, write down what their ideas and then less excited to fix it up. But you have to really tighten things up and make sure that they're good. [00:08:59] And and [00:09:00] always look over them. And again the quality of a good attorney, sorry, I'm in the middle of a rainstorm and quiet, but the quality of a good attorney is many times has a lot more to do with their ability to prove things and make sure they look very good, then it does just to have good ideas. [00:09:15] And and then your writing sample should show, and at its best. One of the things I just wanted to bring up to you in terms of writing samples, it's very important to understand is when you're writing a writing sample, when you're putting, when you're putting anything down on paper and you're reaching legal conclusions and making arguments, if the client sees that there's typos and other errors in it what they're going to believe is they're often going to believe that you didn't, that the quality of your logic is bad as well. [00:09:41] So if your logic is rushed, then then your writing, then the means that anything that's in your writing probably can't be trusted. And so the best attorneys typically will be very methodical in terms of what they write down and how they think through ideas and so forth. And when they do say something it's [00:10:00] typically right. [00:10:00] I'm as part of my job, because I'm a former litigator, I'm always, in, in the middle of or, have various cases and things that, that are in, I'm working with attorneys on and not, as part of my job as CEO of this company. So I'm gonna have. [00:10:14] Right now I have someone that's infringing one of our trademarks and copying one of our businesses and they have, other things. And as part of that, I'll always have, there'll be attorneys working on it and I'm thinking of two cases right now, one case that I'm working on right now is a trademark infringement case. [00:10:27] And I have two lawyers on it. One from a very big firm with very good experience and a very well known and the other from a smaller firm and the attorney from the smaller firm, that's not as well known and obviously is, tends to reach a lot of conclusions very quickly. [00:10:42] And many of them are not many of them, but a few of them are wrong. And and the attorney from the larger firm doesn't reach a lot of conclusions. Doesn't ride a lot, but when he does say something, he only says two or three sentences and it typically will take weeks or hours away from, it's very well thought out and [00:11:00] very clear and direct. [00:11:00] And so one of the signs of a good attorney is the ability to be clear and directing, to not make mistakes. And that's something that's important to learn that kind of comes through in writing samples. So when you're writing the writing sample, you obviously want to look for typos. You want to look for things like extra spaces between your words and sentences. [00:11:17] One thing I'll also add is that there are, in. Grammarly and pro writing aid and other things there's ways to choose, UK type English versus English. And some people think it's cool to choose UK English. If they're in the, if they're in the UK, it's there in the U S it's not, you want to write us thing language if you're writing, if you're doing case citations and so forth you want to make sure everything's blue book you want to make sure that you have some substantive citations to things. [00:11:42] And then if you do make propositions in you're arguing case on stuff, you always need to make sure arguing you're citing different things. You need to have cases support in it. And and there are law firms that will have people check that stuff. I don't think most of them do, but there are ones that will, so it just has to look good. [00:11:58] Then you should be very clear with [00:12:00] your formatting and so forth. And and all the indentations are consistent. And and then your font should always be the same style. That's another big thing that people mess up is they'll have different fonts and different font sizes and all that stuff. [00:12:12] It makes a huge difference when I look at resumes, by the way, when people are applying to work with me personally, I'll always look and, I can usually just because of the training that I've had him and. Good at it over time. I know how to I'll look at something and I'll see the spacing errors or or, a problem with a font or something. [00:12:29] And that is always sticks out and spelling. So you really have to review things carefully and I don't want to beat a dead horse with this because it's quite a lot. But you you need to be very careful you should always print things as well and review it that way, as opposed to just on the community computer screen. [00:12:46] And many times reading things sentence by sentence is important looking at things again and again and making your brain slow down, you'll just have a better chance to catch more errors. And I apologize for spending so much time talking about this, but nothing can help you more in your legal [00:13:00] career than being good at this. [00:13:01] And and a lot of anything, any job you have that has to do with writing, whether it's a corporate attorney or whatever or litigate or any type of writing you're doing you have to be very careful and the more you catch typos the better off you'll be. And and then the only other thing I would say is when you're sending emails with your writing samples, I always think it's a good idea. [00:13:20] Senators a PDF, sometimes their word processing programs for Oakland and in a different format and make errors. So if you send us a PDF, it's not going to change. And so we always try to save things as a PDF. And because sometimes we're documents will pick things up the wrong way. [00:13:37] And that's, in terms of proofreading and often it's a good idea to have people proofread your things as well. And a good proofreader can make a huge difference in terms of the quality of things I've had. In, in my from BCG, for example, I write a lot of articles and many times I've had professional editors look at things, and if they look at an article they will typically chop it up and make it shorter and do other things. [00:13:59] And it will actually [00:14:00] become a much better document that people read more and does better. Many times you have a professional editor looking at your stuff can be helpful. And again, I don't know about the ethics of that, though. If you're turning into a law firm is your own product, but just getting a sense of how a professional editor would edit things is often very important. [00:14:14] They can do a very good job. And just one final thing that I'll say when I started my career at Quinn Emanuel, which and they had a certain writing style. Anytime you look at a really good firm many times they'll do certain things that you know, that, they'll have it as a matter of course for how they do their work product. [00:14:33] And a lot of times outside people wouldn't know that, but they, because judges are reading things and judges are rushed, they made they made sure that almost, you could never read a document more than a page and a half before. There would be a new, capitalized, subject headings and so forth, whether it was, to a B or something I might even have been I think it was a page and a half was the rule back then. [00:14:53] So meaning that everything read very easily, you never, there were never very long paragraphs and so forth. [00:15:00] And and that way it's off the documents a lot easier for people to read. So all this stuff and that made the firm, I think is one of the reasons is, it became one, a lot more than a loss because if communicate ideas and other people couldn't I also noticed that when I was a clerk, that the people that broke the best for typically the best firms and everything was the shortest and so forth. [00:15:19] So the other question is that a lot of people have for corporate transactional, which could be, corporate real estate, all sorts of things. Do you need a writing sample? And and these are unique situations, obviously. And a lot of firms will not ask for writing samples from transactional attorneys and want to see deal transactions to use instead. [00:15:36] But deal transaction seats often. Are also very important because they can show your experience. They can show your writing style, attention to detail, organization abilities how you're presenting information and and whether or not the reader can understand the information you're processing. [00:15:50] A transaction sheet and an example would be if you've done corporate transactions in M and a, and then securities and everything, you would break that up and you would probably want to have[00:16:00] everything organized in a way that makes sense whether it's by when you did it or the type of transaction but people want to be able to understand that and also corporate attorneys often do memos and and so forth. [00:16:12] You should I would think have some sort of, writing samples, no matter what your practice area is, but practice areas are. But one thing I will say this is just very important is if you are a transactional attorney, I think one of the most important things for any transactional attorney especially in in a market that is fairly busy, is always having. [00:16:32] And, we're, it's not that busy is always having a a transaction sheet. The reason it's important to have a transaction sheet is it shows that you're, you have a lot of pride in your work that you're building up a resume that you're excited about what you're doing. And and very few people are like that very few attorneys really come out of the gate and and show th that they're what they've done and that way. [00:16:53] And so having a transaction sheet is very important. When I started in this business, the recruiting business I met who the person at the [00:17:00] time was probably the most successful recruiter in history. And and he had put together, he had a list of every single placement that he'd ever made along with a little blurb of it. [00:17:09] And and I guess it's funny, but right now, I probably, anyway, I'm not gonna brag, but but the point is that he was very proud of the work he did. So anytime he was trying to recruit someone, he would immediately, want to meet with. And then he, the first thing he would do in this meaning you have to break out a list of all his former placements and show them that to them. [00:17:25] And that was his transaction sheet. And because no one else ever did that anybody that he ever approached and met with would become this client. And so it's almost like that with your transaction sheet, if you put that together that shows a lot more, a lot of people don't do those. And then if someone's reading that that they'll recognize things they may have done. [00:17:43] So I believe the transaction sheets are extremely important for every attorney to have. And if you're a transactional attorney and I think it, it really can set you apart and it's something that. So there's obviously questions, about the length of your writing sample and and how much is enough. [00:17:59] [00:18:00] Typically most writing samples are, eight to 20 pages. People just want to see your ability to to write enough that that the, that they can analyze things closely persuasive memos are also interesting, but I think that a very dense piece of writing, can often be shorter. [00:18:18] If most things, need to be at least eight pages, I think to provide enough substance to evaluate the law firms gonna want to get a sense of, how you're able to. Shorten things th the depth that we're able to go into how deeply you can understand various issues and so forth. [00:18:33] And and so sometimes a longer document is often important and you can always ask how many pages that they want. But I do think that, maybe 20 or 30 pages, some, probably the maximum, I also recommend sometimes going into interviews and actually bringing in a copy of a writing sample that can be very helpful on a resume, people like that. [00:18:53] And and it shows that you're prepared just as having a transaction sheet shows you're prepared good attorneys, by the way when they meet with [00:19:00] clients or they meet with judges, we'll always have information that people are asking for. So this is just the way they think about it. [00:19:06] And he knows. So you want to anticipate in advance how how much information people want, and obviously giving them a huge writing sample of a hundred pages. It's not something anyone's ever gonna hear. So you need to be careful about that. I did want to talk about one thing real briefly in a, and this is related to this and and I think it's important for you to understand this, part of the job of the best attorneys and the best people really in any profession is to, make the people around you. [00:19:36] That you're trying to get a work from, or you're trying to get a judgment from if you're a litigator going in front of a judge or you're trying to get a client you're trying is to make those people feel good about themselves and make their jobs easy. The example that I gave you if Quinn Emanuel they would never write more than a page and a half to before they had another subject heading. [00:19:56] That was because they wanted to make it easy for the judges to understand, [00:20:00] what they were reading and and never get lost. And so that's something that makes it easy, whereas a Jew where someone that doesn't think that way would have text them might go on and on. So that's very important is to always make sure that you're, you're not making your reader work too hard. [00:20:13] Edited things. Also make it, so your reader doesn't have to work too hard and that's very important. So you want to do that as well. To the extent you can just make stuff shorter and longer a writing sample doesn't make people have to work too hard. Having your writing sample with you when you go to interviews means someone doesn't have to follow up and get it from you. [00:20:32] That's not made, that's making your interviewer. The firm not have to work too hard. Having things that are well proofed and short sentences and so forth is making it so your reader doesn't have to work too hard or to understand the meaning. So you can take a sentence that, maybe 15 or 20 words, and if you can make it seven or eight words, that's great. [00:20:49] That's the whole kind of idea of Hemingway. He was a journalist and a, and it used to be I mean he learned this way, I believe is that, you had to make communicate a lot because they were using [00:21:00] wires and so forth to communicate stories back then. So the shorter your sentences were and so forth, the easier and the faster things can be communicated to the paper and there you would, and you could make deadlines. [00:21:11] So he was in Paris and writing for people in the states and so forth. But that sort of very clear, direct language also makes it easier for attorneys. For the reader. So if you can write short, direct sentences that makes it much easier for your readers to, and then they can understand it. [00:21:25] So that's something to think about just making things easier for everyone you're dealing with. And that's really a sign of people that are very good in all professions is they just make people feel good and and they make things easier for them and they don't create issues with their could, where there might not otherwise be them. [00:21:41] So the other thing is you want to use an introduction overview to provide your reader with context of what you're writing. What that means is just a short introduction to tell people what it is so an example of a question would be, should I include an introduction, my legal writing, how the reader enough I'm writing about what I'm writing about. [00:21:59] If I take [00:22:00] an excerpt from a longer brief so everything should just have a short written introduction to what you're doing. And this will ensure that the reader's not missing any context and often you can just put it on the cover page and with a short little overview of what you're writing and what you've redacted and so forth. [00:22:17] And and just make sure that you tell people if the writing is all your own work or whether it's a collaborative effort like for example, if you had an editor, you could say it was edited. And I don't know that would impress them though. And I would just, or if it was written with another partner and so forth, whether it was a collaborative effort, typically you're going to be much better off if you show things that you only did, because if it's a brief and some partners names on it, and yours are gonna assume that someone else proof-read it, but a short introduction is good. [00:22:43] One of the things about introductions by the way, and providing the reader of a context. Law firms just as you would, if you were hiring love people that can be enthusiastic about what they're doing. So anything that shows a lot of pride and enthusiasm, a transaction sheet, by the way, shows enthusiasm writing a good [00:23:00] introduction and overview that shows enthusiasm. [00:23:02] So anything that shows enthusiasm for what you're doing is really important. There's so many people out there that are enthusiastic and the people that go the farthest in any profession are the ones that are enthusiastic. Obviously I'm enthusiastic about what I do. And when I'm looking to hire attorneys, I hire the ones that I know are the most enthusiastic about what they do. [00:23:19] When I'm I'm just, I've hired so many attorneys, I've spent a lot of money over the years hiring attorneys and the ones that I've hired are most of the ones that I worked with in the past that I knew were really enthusiastic about what they did and the ones that weren't enthusiastic for, the ones that I did. [00:23:33] So anytime you imbue a little enthusiasm is important and then make sure, if you're told, if you're providing a sample that you make sure that people know what you're doing is just a sample. Many times. On each page, people will write sample they do a redacted sample, the right that you know, I, obviously one of the things is I prefer to have samples that aren't redacted. [00:23:54] It's just, when you have a sample that's redacted, it detracts from the main message, because, the person has to read [00:24:00] all these where it says redacted and stuff, and it just looks self-important a stoop. I don't know. I don't like it. So if you can, it's always better to provide something that hasn't been redacted. [00:24:09] And then this is just question about what's confidential or privilege that you can't write. First of all typically, a memo that's to a client about one of the client's legal issues is typically going to be a privileged type of thing, because it may be done in terms of anticipation of litigation or during litigation something about a law, just a quick memo about that, which people do all the time. [00:24:31] It's probably not going to be confidential or privileged. If you want to write a, if you're asked to write a memo about if the federal rules of civil procedure apply to a client or something, or what rule applies, you would just maybe take the client's name out of the memo and turn them the memo as a writing sample. [00:24:47] You need to be somewhat careful, but and as a general rule, anything that's filed with a court that's not under seal is not confidential or privileged. And and most of the time, when they asked for writing samples [00:25:00] of younger attorneys and law students and so forth, all this stuff that you're writing it's just asking you're asking them to certain things apply and so forth. [00:25:07] And so it's not or certain laws of you can certainly check with your local rules and bar association if you'd like, but for the most part, I that's pretty much how it hit it goes and people aren't really looking to get you in trouble when you turn in a writing sample they're just looking to get a sense of your rewriting ability. [00:25:24] And again this is just a little bit the notice about how to, what is confidential versus regular information and things that can be used as writing sample. And then this is another question about redactions what to do if your writing sample is confidential and privileged information so some people will change the names of companies but most of the time I again, as I said, I don't like to really use redacted samples but you can certainly redact things. [00:25:50] And and if you put it in a word document, again, if you put it as a PDF and you redacted, it's much harder to reverse engineer and just be careful with that. So again [00:26:00] just be careful with any type of confidential information and, I've had times where I've interviewed people before and and they've talked about, confidential things with former clients or current clients. [00:26:10] And because of that, I didn't hire them. I've had people turn in. Documents that I knew would have been confidential when they're trying out for jobs and so forth. And you just need to be careful with all that. And these are just a bunch of questions about redacting things. [00:26:24] Again, I don't like the whole idea of redaction cause it's just, if you have to redact the name of a client a hundred times in a document the documents just gonna look like, it's some sort of, UFO document about federal records and it's just, it's stupid. [00:26:38] I just would be careful when you're turning in documents that you may not have written yourself again, with your writer with a partner that may have made some changes you have to be careful most people are gonna realize that someone else has probably edited very closely. [00:26:51] And and if you did write a section on your own and no one else looked it over that. Then you can certainly do it that way and say the sections you wrote, but if two people's names are [00:27:00] on it, someone's going to assume that someone else wrote it. I would w one of the things that I think is just very important to, to realize is that when they're looking at your writing sample, they're really looking to see, your ability to prove things carefully, your ability to do that. [00:27:15] So if the second someone's name's on it, they're gonna, they're going to really assume that that you may not have been that they're not going to have a good sense of your attention to detail, and that's, they're not going to like that. Same thing with published articles I don't know if you've ever turned your things into a like a law review or or had things published, but most publishers have teams of editors and things. [00:27:36] And so that's the same thing with the published article about the people will assume that other people have heavily added that people want to see the document when you write a document, people want to see, what your writing style is like. And I know in the patent field and there's an actually in some law firms there's they will actually call you in and have you take a test where they'll make you write something and give you a certain amount of time to see your skill at editing and so forth. [00:27:59] And [00:28:00] so you know that's something, I. With who to recommend. And a lot of times people are very proud of publishing articles, but the fact that you published articles in, in many cases is not the best thing in the world. For example, if you're at some firms, you would be considered, that are so busy, they'd be like why wasn't this person billing hours and so forth? [00:28:17] I remember when I was working and this is a funny story, but I was working in a, and this is probably a little upsetting to some people to hear, but I'm going to tell it anyway, I was my first summer or second summer of law school. I was working in a big New York law firm. [00:28:30] And and I was talking to a partner and I was saying, I was thinking about doing this clerkship. And and the partner said, it's one thing I regret about being at this firm is that if I was at crevasse, I wouldn't, people would never think about clerking. So the idea is that, the career path is considered, one of the top firms in New York when the top three or four maybe. [00:28:49] And so the idea would be that people from provactive, but they don't clerk because they get such good experience working in a crevasse that they would never in a million years want to clerk. And so the it's a [00:29:00] little, it's very presumptuous. And obviously there's people that clerk and go to great firms and so forth. [00:29:04] I don't think it's bad. And I clerk, I'm not again, it's levels, if you have, if you're a first-year associate and publishing all these articles people are gonna wonder many times or even a second year, how you have the time to do that and bill hours. It's just something to be a little bit careful of to some extent, but I think it's good to write articles. [00:29:19] If it can help you get clients and build a name for yourself that it doesn't always help you. I was talking to a partner at a big firm Kirkland, actually, not too long ago, and he'd published all these articles and I was very impressed. And he said you shouldn't be that impressed because I'm, I wouldn't be doing all this if I had enough billable hours. [00:29:35] And and then he, and he wasn't that impressed themselves. The point is it's good to write articles, but if you are writing articles you have to be many times very careful about drawing too much attention to it because other people are going to have assume that it's edited. [00:29:48] If you turn it. And then sometimes people ask if the writing sample should contain this question here the facts section of a brief the ideal writing sample share analytical persuasive abilities. I think [00:30:00] facts, are not the worst thing in the world because it can show your ability to tell a story quickly. [00:30:04] But they're not very good for, showing your argumentative skills. And many times, people want to see your research skills and your ability to apply the law to issues. So that's important. But you can certainly turn in the facts section, if you want. I think the ability to tell a story is a very important thing for attorneys to be able to do so I'm not unnecessarily against it. [00:30:24] But most law firms and stuff want to see your analysis. And then there's different alternatives. There could be persuasive letters for legal writing samples and those can be okay. I've seeing people like real-world writing samples I've certainly accomplished. [00:30:37] With letters and my career both for getting people jobs and so forth because they can, you can be very persuasive in a letter many times in a way that you wouldn't be and and other alternatives and many attorneys, by the way, especially in different practice areas really do have a lot of experience writing good letters and have a good reputation for being good. [00:30:56] Another thing is in terms of the recency have a writing [00:31:00] sample if you're a practicing attorney, you probably shouldn't be using something that you wrote in law school. Your writing skills should continue to be improving and it's important. [00:31:08] It looks ridiculous if you turned something and you wrote in law school when you're asked for it, when you're practicing doing something more contemporary is very important. Whatever you have. And again, I keep coming back to this, but proofing things is important. [00:31:20] Again, this webinar, I guess someone sent us to it wasn't me that Senate, but when it was sent to all the BCG recruiters asking if I had any advice on the subject, number one is to proofread it. Preparing writing samples can be very hard work and, reading stuff can be difficult. [00:31:33] The writing sample is really an opportunity to not get a job. So if you make a lot of errors in a writing sample, it can hurt you. And yeah, and and again, in most jobs things you'll be up against multiple candidates. There's always, one of the things is in. [00:31:50] Interaction you have with people there's typically there's the rule of threes. And I was talking to someone about this yesterday. One-third of the people that you meet will like you, a one third of the [00:32:00] people won't care. They won't like you or dislike. You just make an impression. [00:32:03] And then another third of the people for whatever reason will be more negative towards you than positive. Meaning, maybe they think you're, they don't like athletes, or maybe they don't like nerds, who knows. They just don't or they don't like you, or you're just rhino someone. And it's like that with most people when they interview there's always going to be a percentage of the people you interview with that probably aren't going to be particularly enthusiastic about you. [00:32:23] And there's going to be people that are on the fence. So if you do a bad job with their writing sample you'll give those two thirds the people that don't care and the people that don't like you more room to dislike you and you. So you need to be very careful with that. [00:32:35] So I'm gonna take a quick break just for probably see your time. Is it just for one to two minutes? And and while I'm doing that if anybody has any questions about this webinar or anything you'd like to ask about your. Just put them in the chat and I will go through as many questions as you have. [00:32:51] This is actually my favorite time of the week is answering these questions and there's always a great questions and you can ask anything you want. It doesn't have to be about [00:33:00] writing samples. It can be about your job search or any questions you have. And I will stay here as long as people have questions. [00:33:07] I do it every week. If you have a hundred questions, I'll try to answer them all. Hopefully you won't. But however many questions anybody has I'll do my best to answer all of them and I will be back. It looks like it's 10 44, so I'll be back probably by 10 47 or something. [00:33:23] Nice. [00:33:24] Let's get the questions. Just give me one second. I'm going to open a word document here so I can put the questions in there. Give me one second. Sorry. Okay. [00:33:33] On the whiteboard here, it's just okay, so let's get to the questions. Give me one second here. All right. Give me one second. [00:33:39] Give me one second. For some reason I can't see the chat. So give me one sec. [00:33:44] Here we go. Okay, perfect. Okay. So the first one is I'm actually starting on the bottom. Here is what are the most common writing samples? So people typically what'll happen is junior attorneys will typically don't have [00:34:00] experience writing briefs and so forth for the court. So they will turn in memos and things that they've done about different issues. [00:34:06] And that's actually okay. That's what's expected. If you're a law student people will often turn in new court documents and that sort of thing. The briefs and so forth, and then, young attorneys school, newer attorneys with the memos typically That's what happens when you're in your attorney and then after, one to two years and maybe two years, typically both people will turn in, motions, briefs, things along those lines where they're, where they, that they sign, sorry your signature. [00:34:35] So that's, those are the most common ones that people use. And yeah, let's see here. So when the next question section first question that I was a summer associate at a smaller firm and accepted an offer to return a little bit bigger for you guys after law school. Let me see for term at a top six law school accept the summer associates and post-graduation hours from it's from, because I didn't get a job at a bigger firm. [00:34:57] Now, when I'm applying to larger firms, we're writing [00:35:00] Moffitt. [00:35:00] Would this be an ethical Institute late to begin looking? If I wanted to do a three-hour job search, where would I start? It was very difficult to find open positions, litigation hot for my class, your entry level, any advice would be greatly appreciated. Okay. So I'm going to answer this question and probably and what I consider the right way but not necessarily the wrong way. [00:35:19] So if you maybe the wrong way, but one of the things that's that you have to understand about being an attorney and and you're in, regardless of the practice area, that Iran is, you do need to look out for yourself. And what that means is, you need to put your interests long and short term [00:35:38] first, when you make important decisions. And and this is, and again, this is a very important thing. So if you go talk to your school about what you're considering doing, you talk to your school, the school will say, bad you should go to work regardless of the school. [00:35:56] You should work where you accept that. Not they're doing that because. The [00:36:00] school is putting their interests first, [00:36:02] which means they, they want to make sure that future people make sure the employer is not upset with them. And so that's what they're going to do now in your position you need to decide, what is best for you in the long run and and the firm's position. If the firm doesn't have enough work firms, lay people off and do not let them start, [00:36:25] not let people start all the time, [00:36:27] even with lawsuits. Basically the law firm has the right in may decide not to even bring you on even after making you an offer. And they won't do it probably this year because it's a good economy most of the time they have that offer your position is, I'm assuming as you want to get the best job possible. [00:36:45] And and you have two people standing in your way, your school. Are in your conscious or here, conscience. So my opinion is that what is, what is going to be best for you in the long run and and just [00:37:00] going to a bigger firm, isn't what's past necessarily [00:37:03] a big firm. And there's a presentation that I did a couple of weeks ago about the benefits of working in a largest firm possible. The biggest, the bigger the firm, the more options you're probably going to have in the future whether you want to go in house or, regardless of what you want to do a larger firm will give you a lot more options. [00:37:19] So there are obviously benefits to going to work in a larger firm, but th but the other thing is, if you go to a larger firm, even though you may make more money and so forth it may actually be harder for you to become a partner. You may have less employment security because people, especially litigators typically will lose their jobs in larger law firms after a few years. [00:37:41] So there's all sorts of after they get more senior there's also, you may have worse hours there. There's all sorts of reasons that you may not want to see. With your, where you're at. But what I would say is if you accepted an offer and and you feel like that's what you want to do as best to go there, if you feel like the cost benefit analysis [00:38:00] is in your favor, but if you feel like you really need to work in a larger firm, because of whatever reason, then then I would do a couple things. [00:38:07] The first thing I would do would be I would, I don't know if there's any now regulations about, if you accept an offer, you can't do things or, in terms of recruiting I'm not aware of any, but maybe there are I certainly see nothing wrong with talking to people if it doesn't, in, in other firms to see if that may be something you want to do there, even though you weren't a summer associate in different firms you do have the option of applying to larger firms. [00:38:32] And even though the market may be slow where you're where you're looking at the market is not slow naturally. There's, if you're a top six law school that you can probably go to work in almost any market in the United States. If you think, if you're in Chicago, for example then, you may find that, California at Los Angeles is very busy or New York city is very. [00:38:51] Or DCS, probably not that busy, for litigation, maybe busy, I don't know. So you have to be careful, but what, you do need to understand those. At some [00:39:00] point, those law firms, the law firm may check your references at your firm that you were at and the over the summer, the odds are pretty rare that they would unless they were almost positive and then give you an offer. [00:39:10] But yeah, that's kinda how I would think about it. The only other thing I would recommend doing that's very common is if you want to go to a larger party, you should try to clerk. So clerkship with a federal district judge or appellate will make you much more marketable. And then you can probably go to work at a larger firm and you'll get very good experience and have someone critiquing your writing and so forth for a year. [00:39:31] It would be awesome. So that would be what I would do. If I was in your situation, I would probably take a clerkship and the smaller firms not going to care and we'll assume you'll come back. And if you don't come back, you can go to work at a larger firm and get a clerkship owners and those sorts of stuff, and then get very good training right out. [00:39:47] One of the things I wanted to say to all young attorneys and law students on this call is really your first job your first, your first one to five years of practice are really about getting. [00:40:00] So that's the most important thing to really realize all so know the better training you get the better off you're going to be in the long run, because you're going to learn like all these skills that I was talking about today with writing and things like most people never get exposed to that. [00:40:15] Most attorneys do not come out of, after their first three or four years of practice as very good writers, they don't come out with the best logic. They don't know how to make decisions in the correct way and analyze information. And you learn a lot of that stuff early on. You can learn that by working with a very good judge. [00:40:33] You can learn that by working in the best, big, with the best people in the best firms. You can learn that if you work in a very good boutique where you're working with very good people, but the first one to five years are about training. You should not, you should never, worry so much about prestige and money. [00:40:48] Getting an incredible experience, [00:40:51] incredible training, because that training is going to go a long way in your career. If you're 26 years old right now, what's your 20, 20 [00:41:00] or 25. When you come out of law school, [00:41:02] You can practice people. People now practice into their eighties. You'll probably be practicing into your mat. You'll probably be working into your nineties maybe longer because people live along a lot longer. [00:41:12] The groundwork you lay early on in terms of the habits you learn are going to be extremely important and all this stuff about learning, to think through issues, learning, to write properly, learning to spend your time around the best people you can. It's all very important. I told the story a couple of weeks ago, but I just want to bring it up again very quickly. [00:41:32] I spent I used to be involved in the self-improvement industry and there was this guy that that I met and he had he'd made probably hundreds of millions of dollars putting on real estate seminars and then and and then he'd gone and something had happened, I don't know, repeat exhausted themselves and gotten in trouble or something, not in trouble, but just, just life fell apart. [00:41:51] And and so he spent like one or two years. Going around and meeting the Dalai Lama and all these people to anybody that he could spend money to get education from [00:42:00] about the meaning of the world and life and everything. And and, spend a couple of years just traveling and and then he wrote everything down, but of course, because he wasn't very educated and so forth. [00:42:09] And that doesn't, I'm not saying he didn't know how to write clearly. I read all this stuff and couldn't understand it. And so I've met with someone that worked with them very closely, and I was like what is it that this guy understood? And basically what he understood is that then this is a very simple model to put together for you, but the people you spend your time with determine the type of person you are. [00:42:30] And that was really what I mean, it took me a long time to figure out. And if you spend time with the best attorneys when you're young are you will become like them and and learn their skills and have a much better career. So if you can spend five years getting really good training those five years are going to make you a very good attorney. [00:42:46] And then for the next 60 years of your life, which is two times as long as you've lived at that point you can be a very good attorney, whereas if you don't spend time with those attorneys or with those sorts of people, when you're young, you won't do as well. And that also [00:43:00] goes into was reading a book about early development and most of our, our right and left brain. [00:43:05] Our our left brain, which I guess is your logic and reasoning. And, at center doesn't really start developing until you're a couple years old, but your right brain, which is emotions and stuff really develops pretty much your first two years, based on how your parents interact with you. So they give you a lot of attention when you smile and stuff that actually has a long-term impact on the type of person you become. [00:43:26] And it's the same thing with, why do people try so hard to go to good colleges? Why do people try so hard to go to pro good prep schools? Why do they try so hard to get on certain teams and so forth? And it's really because of the people you're around determined type of person you become. So as a young attorney, you're because you go to a top six law school, the pressure there which is, makes sense is working in a big firm, work in a big firm, work in a big firm. [00:43:48] And the idea is that that's because those groups push that. And if you're going to a small local law school and outside of Detroit, your pressure would be working this, try to work in this big, Detroit farm. If you can't work there, a couple of big [00:44:00] Detroit firms, maybe you could work, do this other thing. [00:44:02] So this, the groups of people you're with determined the pressures and stuff and your aspirations, but also you're trained. So I would recommend, anything you can do, if you're a young attorney to work with the best people you can, that are going to have to give you the best results in the long run and spend your time. [00:44:17] Around the best possible people. I had one other experience and I was just mental shut up and move on to the next question. But I think it's a very important question, but you're asking because it ties into so many things. Is there was this, when I was practicing law at my last law firm, there was this woman there that was a partner in the firm and she wasn't doing well and she'd been and was very angry. [00:44:40] And but anytime someone worked with her, like they would quit like right after working with her. And then they would not practice log in. Like one woman had gone to Columbia law school and work with her and she'd become a waitress. And another guy had gone off the deep end and was, traveling and there was just all these stories. [00:44:55] Just one a call you to do work for her. And then, and then, within a couple of months, the person's not [00:45:00] practicing law anymore. And it was literally that upsetting and and of course, the story goes that I worked for her and. And Richard conclusion that I didn't want to practice law anymore within months of working with her as well. [00:45:13] And she was just very unpleasant. Couldn't understand anything with me was very political because she got in the head. So if he didn't, she didn't like you when she couldn't let anyone that did work for her, she'd be mean she would, play games. And so it was just, so that's the, and that was how she was able to get a heck. [00:45:28] She had the same education, so forth, there's everyone at the firm and so forth. So the people you're around often determined the kind of person you become. And that's one of the reasons why you look for positions and you look, you try to work with the best people you can and go to the best schools and Todd, because of that. [00:45:44] And and it's something to remember in your career because the people that you're around and you spend your time with will determine the type of person that you become in your career. And then that's going to have a lot of long-term impact in your first job can determine that working with a judge that you like can determine that all [00:46:00] these things can determine them. [00:46:01] And someone once said to me also, which is an interesting thing, I was talking to my dad and I was, someone hadn't worked out at the company and I was saying yeah, but there, nothing good is happening with them. And he said you should be proud of, when you should want good things to happen, to the people that, that leave. [00:46:15] That should be what you're thinking about. And so I, and that's he's right. And he was right, and this was 20 years ago. And since that time. There's all sorts of people, in this profession that are doing very well. And well-regarded and and they certainly didn't have exposure to that when they started and they become very successful. [00:46:31] You want people that associated with you to become successful. And and and so you want to be part of organizations where there's good stories about people that leave are people that have been there in the past, not bad stories. And that's very important. So I hope that helps me answer to your question. [00:46:46] If you have a thought question, I'm happy to answer it. And then the next question is what is good legal writing? What separates it from bad legal writing? Good legal writing. I don't, th this is good legal writing typically is understandable, it's it's short. I'm not sure, but [00:47:00] it's understandable by all audiences. [00:47:02] So it's almost may time being a fifth grade level. The worst attorneys will typically use the biggest words and and the longest sentences and things will be the least understandable. And the best attorneys will, would be the most direct. So the legal writing does that. It also captures and doesn't miss issues. [00:47:19] It's you have to understand all the issues. One of the funny things, one of the fun things, a very good legal writer, a little bit long-winded Posner, for example, in his ninth circuit. And or it used to be, I don't know if he still has, but his writing is always very fun to read because he would write these long opinions and the opinions would go on for pages and pages. [00:47:39] And they were very understandable and entertaining. And and then he would conclude, you would get like one or two, like short paragraphs away from the conclusion and all of a sudden you would think it was going to go one way and everything would, it would turn in everything on his head by the last moment, introducing a piece of information that no one that was part of the conclusion, but no one [00:48:00] had thought of, or it wasn't really didn't look like it was going to go one way and the opinion would go the exact opposite. [00:48:05] He does that a lot with a lot of opinions and it's fun. And so it's that to good legal writing, doesn't miss issues. And and so I would just make sure if you're writing something that you know, that people understand, what you're talking about, then you're not missing next. [00:48:19] Okay, I'm gonna get this one next question. And so good legal writing. It's bad legal writing. I would say just as a matter of course is usually the big words mean it doesn't need to is longer than it needs to is. Gary doesn't misses issues is doesn't there's so many rules to legal writing. [00:48:36] One of the things is, if you're going to have, I could go into a lot of detail, but a lot of times people will have subject headings and the subject headings might be you might have argument, or you can say argument instead of argument, you're better off actually writing what the argument is. [00:48:48] Does not blah, blah, blah, because of such and such. So a lot of times people use arguments, in all these different subject headings, basically describe what's there, your subject headings should be descriptive. There's so much things about good legal [00:49:00] writing compared to average legal writing. [00:49:01] But one of the things I would say is, if you're doing this for a living and you are, if you're in the legal profession you should always be doing whatever you can to learn and to read books about things. And and to be very careful about to constantly be improving your writing. [00:49:19] It's important. And especially if you do it for a living, many times it's a lot of times you can learn things very quickly without having to wouldn't stop making mistakes over and over. And the next question is when should I submit my writing sample? [00:49:32] And one of the things I just wanted to say about writing samples is I had an attorney working for me not too long ago. And and she was very arrogant, but she knew everything and her writing was horrible. She was actually from a foreign country. And and I told her at one point, she was not but she would make a lot of bad mistakes and wouldn't communicate the right ideas. [00:49:51] And and wasn't thinking through things. And and I told her at one point, you're never going to get ahead in this profession. And she was just working as in a kind of a contract role [00:50:00] doing some stuff if you continue with us. And and she didn't like hearing them and she was very upset about it and ended up actually, I think, returning to her country she was so upset to hear that from me. [00:50:10] And but I was being honest with her because I'd given her several warnings and told her to, I bought her a lifetime subscription to Grammarly or whatever it was, or poor readiness and all these other things, but the air has kept happening. And the other thing was the writing errors happen, but also logic errors. [00:50:25] Learning all, this is very important. It's part of the job, again, a client sees a writing sample with errors, and then they're going to assume that your thinking process also has writing errors. And and that's going to hurt you and and people don't want to be represented by clients like that. [00:50:40] They absolutely don't. I had an instance once where it was actually embarrassing, but I'll tell it. I was living on a farm when I was Moscow in Charlottesville, Virginia, and these neighbors of mine. They had taken their dog to a kennel and and the kennel had lost it and lost the dog and had gotten out or something. [00:50:57] And so they wanted to, they were [00:51:00] upset and they wanted to Sue the kennel. And so they had me draft up a little complaint for them to file the small claims court. And I did, and there were errors and they took it and then they came back and said, correct fees. And then they took it and then the more errors and they came back and they took it and they came back again on their errors. [00:51:16] And and I realized that these were people that, were farmers essentially. They were, not know, they were not sophisticated people, but this is someone that, at that point, that was on law review and doing, getting ready to do a federal clerkship and all this stuff. [00:51:30] And I was still making errors like that and not taking it seriously. The point is that the people take this stuff, even the clients very seriously. And if those people were ever probably never would have used me, even though I was thought I was such a big deal and I wasn't a big deal. [00:51:43] I was a hack at that point because I didn't know what I was doing. You need to do the best quality writing you can't and you need to learn it. And and even people that are educated are very insulted or hurt by those errors and lack of attention and so forth. The question about when you should have made your writing sample is don't [00:52:00] unless they ask writing sample anything that many times, unless you are so confident that your writing sample of awesome, and it's not going to hurt you. [00:52:06] I typically would not submit a writing sample unless someone asks don't also, don't put writing samples available or references available on request and so forth on your resume if they want it. They'll ask for it. You, so don't worry about that. But in terms of your writing sample, the reason you don't want to submit a writing sample unless the ask is because because it's just an opportunity for them to find things wrong and find mistakes and and someone may decide that they don't like it. [00:52:33] And again, every law firm not all of them, but a lot of them always have the writing groups that are in the firms and those writing groups most of the time. And I'm not again trying to be rude here, but a lot of them do not. And their sense of importance and value to the firm comes in shutting down not only the people that work there as writing samples, but law students and other applicants running samples. [00:52:54] You need to be very good about making sure that you avoid those people [00:53:00] if at all possible because they will always put in a bad word for you. There's very few writing samples that those kind of people ever receive that are going to get a lot of praise. [00:53:08] So typically I'll be marked up in any writing sample can be torn apart. I've had experiences. I had one funny experience actually, where I used to be. I thought that I learned all this stuff about writing samples, by the way, from, clerking and from, learning, working with someone that took them very seriously and clean writing, which I'm grateful to this day. [00:53:28] But one of the things is that one time I've had instances before where, people have given me writing samples and I've marked them up, with five different colors of ink and everything and done a really good, spend a lot of time on them and and then they brought them back corrected and I've done the same thing with them again, when people are like, that's just crazy, but so many times there's people, you just. Please. And so you have to be very careful. Is it possible that a writing sample will be used against me for the next question? And yes, it is. If you don
