[00:00:00] Today's presentation is about why you should quit practicing law. And if you're listening to this the outs are probably pretty good that it's something that you've thought about. And if it hasn't something that you've thought about then it may be something that you should think about.
One thing I can say. Is not a good reason to practice, quit practicing law. And I'll just say this at the outset is if you think it's difficult to get a job or you think you're, you're not doing as well as other people and getting the highest salary jobs and so forth. Cause it's actually in my experience when people apply to BCG most people are people that we could place.
If we have the resource to work with them, which we actually do. But the point is that you can definitely get jobs. And so that's not a good reason to quit practicing law, but there are reasons that you should quit and there's a lot of things to think about when you're entering to this.
And I know that one of the problems that most people have when they're practicing law, is that they there's so much pressure. They feel like just to stick with the job and they feel like [00:01:00] they, they really can't quit. They believe that they have to stay engaged and keep doing the work and that if they quit that there's something wrong with them.
And so there's a lot of peer pressure. It comes from parents. It comes from the sense of achievement that has gone into becoming an attorney and a lot of other factors I think motivate people to want to stick with it. But the thing I really need to tell you is that if you Quit practicing law.
Most attorneys end up doing far better and in, in other professions than they would practice in law. And, I'll just tell you, for example I purchased a pickup truck about a week ago. And when I was there, I was talking to the salesman and he was telling me that he's 19 years old and makes $300,000 a year.
And this is fair. And he says that most, half of the people that he works with make that. So the point is that you can make a lot of money doing other things. You can make money selling cars, you can make money in real estate, you can make money owning different sort of businesses.
I once knew a guy that clean windows and only did four or five months, a year in Michigan and made [00:02:00] hundreds of thousands of dollars. So it shouldn't be about money that drives you in, and you shouldn't believe that if you take what, practicing long, do something else you're not going to do well, because the odds are you'll do very well with your smarts and motivation have led you to go to law school in the first place, if you try other things.
And frankly the law is a very, crowded field and I'm an example of someone to quit practicing law. I'm still in the profession, but at the same time I quit and a lot of people quit. And one of the things I'll just tell you at the outset is I see a lot more. Quit and never come back to practicing law.
Then I see people quit and go back. And there are certain people that are natural fits for practicing law. And if you're one of those, then you definitely should not quit. And we'll talk about that today. Many attorneys by the time they get out of law school are just really exhausted.
And and there's just a lot of high pressure there's before you go to law school, most people, they they work very hard in high school. A lot of times getting good [00:03:00] colleges or they work very hard in colleges to get into a good law school, or they just end up working very hard in law school.
And it's a lot of pressure and and they're often very burned out and and tired and and a lot of cases they've lost a lot of their spirit. It's a law school can be very crushing. It's there's constant rejection, no matter where you go to law school and no matter how well you do you can be the best student in the world and not get jobs because of your personality, or you could be a bad student.
There's just so much, so one of the things that that happens is I think a lot of attorneys when they, especially ones who go to big loss law firm, law schools, and do well there and get jobs to big law firms. A lot of times, they're very excited by the time they get out and they believe that, it's their time to.
Collect a paycheck. It's their time to start working on living life on their terms. And and they're almost ready to not work hard anymore, even though th everything is just starting your, your, the fact that you have to start working hard. It's actually, you have to start working even harder when you get out than [00:04:00] you are to even get in the door.
But a lot of people think the opposite and they fall fairly quickly. And then a lot of times, even before they start jobs with large law firms, I do these presentations every week. And law students are always on them and ask questions about going in house, even when they're in, in their, a big gig, very prestigious law school.
So a lot of people dream appointed house fair early. And and then, when you get on this kind of fast track inside of a big law firm and you're working lots of hours and and you're working very hard. And and you're feeling unfulfilled often because it can be very impersonal working in an office.
And and having your work criticized, you often find yourself asking what's the point. And and you're often surrounded also by negativity. It's a swamp the more competitive the firms, the more the more there's many times, the more negativity there is.
And many people are interested in giving up when they start or are very. After they started firms and it can even be that with law, small law firms. I lot of people start at small to mid-sized firms and get a [00:05:00] very bad taste in their mouth. Other people, I review resumes all day and, people that have spent a year or two at a law firm.
And and they still write down that they're a law clerk and they haven't passed the bar yet. And so there's all sorts of problems, that you can have, and you could get a job with the wrong firm when you start and you could you could lose a job and get fired and blame it on the profession.
And everybody gets fired and every profession, and you could all sorts of negative things can happen. You could not go to a good law school. You could and not get a good reception there, legal market, but none of this stuff, honestly at the beginning of your career matters, and it doesn't even matter towards the end of your career because I know attorneys that are in their eighties and nineties and practicing and billing a thousand dollars plus an hour.
And and having a good career still. And and this is a longterm race, but the idea is, should you quit practicing law? And all I would say at the outset is if you're, in your first couple of years of this and you think you don't like it it takes several years before you really get in the groove of things.
I would say to learn, to do most transactional areas of law, it takes probably about three to five years, at least. And to do [00:06:00] litigation probably two to four years before you even know. And the other thing to think about too, is a lot of people are focused. And when I see most of the people I see leave the practice of law a lot of times are from the largest firms.
And you have to remember that the world isn't made up of large firms, if you if you care about other people's problems, and this is what a lawyer has to care about almost naturally. And this is one of the reasons that it's important to to practice law in a, if you like it one of the reasons to work in a, an affirm is that you have to be interested in people's problems and solving them.
And and the last thing you should be doing, if you have an interest in that and other, and solving other people's issues, interest to you and talking about their issues and coming up with solutions, and you're probably very suited to this and and if think about how can you solve people's problems and take an interest in them.
Then that's a real sign of someone that should be doing this. And many times when people are unhappy practicing law, the reason they're unhappy is because they're just in the wrong environment. If you're in the wrong environment, then [00:07:00] you're just not practicing. In the right place. You may be, a big firm may not be for you or a small firm may not be for you or a firm where you don't have a lot of guidance, may not be for you in a firm where there's, you're not around people that you like may not be for you.
It's just that you have to understand that everything is about the environment and the type of people that you're working with. And that many times determines your happiness or lack of happiness. And but saying you don't want to work and quit practicing law because you don't like working in a large firm is, just like saying you don't want a friend because your best friend was mean to you or you never want to you never want to play basketball again because you didn't make a professional team or something.
I It's just doesn't make any sense. But this is what many people do. Many good attorneys have a bad experience and then they quit. And I know that people listening to this are probably thinking about quitting because they're having bad experiences or they're unhappy where they're at.
And many times you're just unhappy because this is your first employer or or you're in the wrong employer. And and you need to do something different in a different practice setting. With different types of people. Attorneys I meet academics [00:08:00] all the time, which are like law professors, none of those.
Be good in a law firm. Very few of them. They're just not suited for it and that's not, those suited for academia and it's the same thing with practicing law. That's not, you may not be in the best setting for you. And maybe, you practice law in a smaller firm or a large firm.
It's not, it's just, you have to be in the right practice setting. And the reason so many people I think get turned off by major law firms is because they're really kind of industrial organizations. They're big, they their job is to produce a lot of billable hours and to charge clients a lot of money for the best legal services.
And and they're a relatively new breed. Liars have been around forever. You read old Greek poetry and they, they talk about liars. So th they're, they've always been there, but it's just a different type of profession and most people that would want to go to law school.
They they have reasons maybe they want to make a lot of money, but many times they have other interest in being a liar. They want the, they want a career that's fulfilling, or they want the, different sorts of things. And you need to make sure that you're, when [00:09:00] you're looking at firms you have to and where you're working, that it's not about the fact that you're in an organization, that's an unpleasant it's, then it's at you're in an organization that, that Fulfills you and makes you feel good.
Some, you have plaintiff's attorneys and you have defense attorneys and you have, large firms and small firms and you have the attorney said, go out and pitch business and attorneys that do different sorts of things. And and what what upsets me, I think most of all is that most of the time, the most highly qualified attorneys for the ones that ended up leaving the practice a lot.
They're the ones that that have the worst experiences because they get into these industrial law firms that are more cold and impersonal many times. And and I, in my experience, the people that are most likely to leave the practice alive and give up are the people that started with the largest law firms and and went to the best law schools.
They're often the least likely to stick with it. People with lesser qualifications and that, took longer to get going often not do much better. Smaller firms more likely to be practicing many times than people longer out of law school and the people [00:10:00] that went to better law schools or went to better firms.
You may ask yourself Weiser's discrepancy. And and I think that the reason is is that that there's good reasons and there's bad reasons. And Most of the time. I think the reasons are the wrong ones. And and I certainly could talk all day about ego and different sorts of things that hurt people.
But for the most part the only reason you should quit practicing law is if you're unfit for it. And and and that's the main one. And there's other ones too or but what people do is they have many times they end up in the wrong environment or they just don't, continue after they've done it for awhile.
Here's the understand if you're unfit for the practice of law and being a fit for the practice laws about a lot of things, and I'm going to cover a lot today. It's not going to take a ton of time, but I'm going to cover a lot of the reasons that you may be unfit for practicing law.
And you need to understand that if you're unfit, you probably shouldn't be doing it should be doing something else. And like I said, you can do very well in other professions doing other things it's not that difficult and the smarts and motivation that you went [00:11:00] into practice that you put into being an attorney many times are going to be much better.
You'll be much better suited from a financial happiness and all sorts of standpoints then than doing something that you're unfit for. And and I would caution you and encourage you To not take this with a grain of salt, because if you're in the wrong profession, you're doing something wrong.
You're never going to do well. And you'll also probably always be unhappy. You'll go, be forced you'll or have substance abuse problems and you'll be angry. There's just so many things that go along with being in the wrong profession. And that's not what I want for you.
I don't want you to be doing something that makes you happy and that you're good at. If you're not fit for practicing law, you just shouldn't be doing it. And and here's some ways to really decide if you're if you're good at this and and the, if you're, if you should be practicing law, you have to be excited by helping other people solve problems.
It just has to come naturally for you. You have to be [00:12:00] someone that listens to a problem and and just gets excited about solving it and thinks about the person and and all of your energy and focus goes into that. And when they're talking, you're interested in them and and that's really one of the big things.
And if you're not that way, then you probably shouldn't be doing it. Think about a doctor that listens to your what's wrong. And is checking their phone in text messages while you're talking and couldn't care less. That's a bad doctor. The same thing with attorneys, if you don't get excited about people's problems and you're an attorney because it's about your ego or something, or I don't know, then you're probably doing the wrong thing.
And it's not good. It's not good for the clients. Not good for you. You have to be excited about what you do. If you want it to be like a professional baseball player and playing baseball is something that you're not interested in. That's not a good use of your skills. It's the same thing with practicing law.
You have to get excited about solving people's problems and you really need to think about this because if you're not [00:13:00] excited that's bad and you should be thinking about people's problems when you're not working. You should be thinking about them. It should consume you. It should be very interesting to you.
You should want to talk to it, you should want to read about it. And and these are the kinds of attorneys that do well. The best attorneys are always interested in other people's problems. The higher you go, the better the attorney, the longer, the more partners they're a partner and the big firms that don't keep these giant books of all their, the work that they've done.
And they'll keep files about things that they're interested in. They'll, this is what the best attorneys do. And and if you're not that way, and you just think it's, you're just doing something rote, and that's probably not good. You need to be excited about this and that. If you don't have that, you're probably not.
Do you, you may be in the wrong practice area that's possible. But in general, you need to be excited about other people's problems and that's the same thing you would want. If you're an attorney when you're doing something time seems needs to fly. You need to get in the zone.
It shouldn't be something that's boring to you. And and that and you just can't stand doing that you have to be [00:14:00] interested in. And and that's the other thing. Whatever you're doing, whether it's research or discovery, even if the work's tedious, there's gotta be something that appeals to you about doing that.
And if it doesn't, that's a problem. And and you need to think about, are you interested in advancing people's interest? And these, this is something that I can pick up on very quickly. When I talk to attorneys, I, the best attorneys and the best people really in any profession are very interested in other people's issues for the most part, if that's what part of their job.
And and you have to do that. The other thing is you when you hear someone say I was talking to a woman not too long ago. And she was was talking to her about going back just saying I really don't want to do it, but I would do it if I could get paid this amount of money. And I thought that's, not really someone that should be doing this, if they're only doing it for money.
It has to feel. Natural to you. It means when I say natural, it just means that it's just something that you're comfortable with. You're not okay. After you've been doing it for a few years, just has to feel like something you would do for less money, the [00:15:00] best attorneys.
I've known of partners in big law firms that went and, just open solo practices even though or became judges and other things, because it's just a natural, it's what they want to do. It's where their identity is. It's where they get fun. And and then the best attorneys will also constantly wish they can make their results better.
Certainly many people will get into a groove and not, work as hard, but for the most part you have to you have to be really into this and you have to be really interested in it. And and if you're not, then that's a problem. Because think about again, what would you want from someone solving your problems?
Would you want them not interested in detached or would you want them very interested in it and think about that with anybody that you hire. If I hire someone to, work on a car, like I w the person that's interested in is much better than the one that's not, and this is these things by the way are what separate people that are good at something from those that are not, is there interest in it and that sort of thing.
And then the other thing is, a lot of the best attorneys will get emotionally involved in matters. Okay. They will, it's emotional to them. They [00:16:00] think about people. They think about getting the best result. They get upset and if they lose and they cry and where they get mad at face, get the worst result and they, go think about it for a while, somewhere in there, they don't get the best result and they have to be interested in and you have to, you have to be interested enough in this stuff that you, that, you, even in your free time, you would like to read and write about it and speak and and so forth.
You just have to, you have to care about it. And if you don't then think about that, would you want that person helping you? Cause there are things you care about, you may care about, I know people that it's interesting. I used to be involved in like the, the college admissions committee community.
And and when you look at when a school like like Harvard or something, are these really good schools, like they get all these people that are have good grades and stuff, but the people that they always try to admit for the most part, I they have all sorts of goals where some of them are, they want to get a certain number of athletes and people from different states and diversity.
But really when they're, when they, when it comes down to choosing between two people, they're always going to choose [00:17:00] someone that has a real passion for something as opposed to someone that doesn't. One year I remember. I was talking to someone about these people from the school that got into Harvard.
And one of the, two of the people were very good students, but the person that finally got in without, it wasn't as quite as good, a student was very interested in bugs and collected bugs and wrote about bugs and have those big bug collection. And who knows and it's just, it's things like that.
Just that you have to have an interest in people that have an interest in something are always going to go farther than those that don't. And and because you have to be interested. So if you're not interested in this stuff, that's a big deal. And if there's no interest area of law, you could see yourself interested in that's a big deal because there may be things you're interested.
You may be interested in selling cars again, or you may be interested in something else, but if you're not, that's a problem. And the attorneys that probably shouldn't be practicing law, don't care about the quality of the work. They, they don't want, they make typos. They gloss over the law.
They think they know everything. They, they just don't care. They I don't know, putting on [00:18:00] an act is the right word, but because everybody is fudging it when they start. But if you don't, if you really just are, don't really care and people know you when they talk about their problems and stuff, you just have very little business being an attorney.
It's not a good thing for anyone. You need to be interested in. And that's really how it works. You need to be interested also in improving when people talk to you about things that you're doing you need to be interested in improving the quality of your work and you can take it seriously because it's a profession and so you have to be interest in it.
And if you're not, that's important to take him to account. Now, another thing that that concerns me a little bit and and this is something that I see a lot and every generation, by the way, whether it's millennials or what the people before them, or, they always say, oh, the people are they're different than the previous generation so forth, but every generation of good attorneys the it's really about to be good at it.
It's about protecting other people and doing everything. You can protect people, companies, and so forth, and just making sure [00:19:00] that the other person has helped. And and this understanding should be natural. It should be visceral. And it should be something that motivates you in all respects. And this isn't you shouldn't be practicing law.
So if you're not motivated by something then you shouldn't be practicing law. If working a weekend or 18 hours a day is necessary to help your client win, then you should do it and you should want to do it. You need to you need to be engaged now. I don't think everybody wants to work 18 hours a day, seven days a week.
An exaggeration, but an attorney that where their client is facing a major problem and they can only solve it by working lots of hours should be perfectly willing to do that. And it shouldn't be a problem. And you just need to keep that in mind. Another thing is that, the best attorneys, which should have no problem if you're, in order to, when you need to travel across the country and interview a witness or or get a piece of certain piece of evidence you need to do it and you need to want to do it.
And and you should do everything you can to to try to make sure that happens. And and do whatever you can, because this is what people are paying you [00:20:00] for. This is what should come naturally. And and, you may in, in your personal life, if you want to be friends with someone, or you want to know someone, or you want to say something, you'll say it and or do it most of the time.
And it's the same thing with being an attorney. Like you have to you have to, at least these skills are just something that are there part of it, and you have to be driven. And it's not about you as the other thing I think one of the big mistakes the worst attorneys think is that they always think it's about them.
And they think that, it's about how much I'm getting paid. It's about how I'm treated about my parking, my benefits, my this, and that. And to some extent, I there's nothing wrong with. To be paid competitively and and all this sort of thing, but it's really about protecting other people.
And you have to really think about that and if you're not interested in protecting other people and companies and so forth, then and winning for them and that doesn't come natural for you, then that's a problem. And there's certain people that are wired for this, and there's others that aren't, and it's okay for not, you're just probably in the wrong profession or the wrong [00:21:00] practice area in our practice setting.
So just think of, what would you care about a police officer that doesn't care about defending the helpless someone's getting robbed and they just drive by, they're not interested or a doctor that doesn't care about their patient relate and just trying to make money or a fireman that doesn't care if a building burns down or, an attorney that doesn't care if his client gets taken advantage of her client gets taken advantage of, or is prosecuted in properly.
These are things that you need to really think about and you need to think about them very closely. And and these are important to you. They, they should be th this should be stuff that's natural. And one of the best attorneys that I ever knew was in a meeting with a client at one time, I bet I remember, and the client said, why should I hire you?
And. And then the attorney had a very simple response and this became a person, the most famous attorneys in the country. He said, because if you hire me, why will eat, drink, sleep this case and do it. And so everyone working for me, every case I take as the most important thing in the world to me. [00:22:00] And it's true.
And who would you want representatives? You would, you want some guy who looks good in a suit and talks about how he went to a great law school and was, did this, or w did a clerkship or something and is sending to you and works on his terms, or would you want someone who devotes himself to the case and thinks that's the most important thing in the world?
So this is what good attorneys do. And this is a skill that separates people from average, and it's something that you should have. And if you don't, that's problem you, it's a real problem. And and and think about it. It's just not, it's not a good use of your skills.
It's not a good use of the other person's skills. And there's plenty of, if all you care about is yourself then there's plenty of and that's the majority of the world. I'm not saying that in a bad thing, most people are more concerned with themselves and doing stuff for others.
Then there's other professions you can do. You can do other professions and that's it's hard to save it. And so people who should be practicing law also take the work product extremely seriously. They work like every day is their most important day.
I They they, I've seen I [00:23:00] once saw an attorney kick a trash can across the room and they found a typo on a document. I've seen attorneys spend two days in bed when their client loses an important case. And I've seen attorneys, do everything they possibly can with appeals and more if somebody loses a case, it's just there are people should be practicing law that have a spirit within them that makes them a fit for doing it.
And there's others that aren't. And and, the best attorneys, the ones who it's very natural for often we'll never retire. They love it that much. They can always want to do it. It's not retirement, it's just not an option. And helping people is and advancing their client's interests is just who they are.
And and they're committed to it. And just think about yourself now. I'm not saying you have to be, it has to be all consuming for you, but you have to be the type of attorney that you would want representing you if you had a serious problem and just think about, the things that you say or the way you think.
And is that how you would want your attorney to think if you had a problem? Because I bet if you had a problem, you and he shouldn't be practicing law, you would find someone that's [00:24:00] much more serious. In terms of that. The spirit, that makes good attorneys too, by the way really can't be measured by good sat score LSVT scores by your law school grades by the quality of the law school you went to, or even where you work.
None of this stuff matters. The most important thing is always going to be the the, the quality of your your drive there's personal injury attorneys with their own jets. And, there's attorneys that, barely graduated from law school, they're on television all the time.
And there's in law schools are factories to some extent. I They're very profitable by the way. They, if you think about, now you need to do, you can hire a lot of adjunct faculty to teach stuff. You can, fill giant lecture halls teaching your introductory classes and charge, 50,000 or 70,000 or a hundred thousand a year for, people to go there.
And it's, they're very profitable, but they often they're not, they're producing standardized goods and they're not necessarily teaching you the importance of helping people and making people helping people do well. And the thing is that, test scores and things that, when [00:25:00] you take a test, when you take a test, all that.
It's just, it's how, you're comparing to your peers and there needs to be some way to compare yourself to your peers and how much you're learning and so forth and how while you're regurgitating things. And and the law firms need to obviously want to hire the best people that so they can tell their clients that they hired the best people.
And wines are ranked and the attorneys are ranked and all sorts of cars are ranked. And in the better cars are purchased by, I dunno, better wines by the better restaurants and so forth. The point is that the most the high, the highest team clients in the we'll use the best firms that have the highest qualified and attorneys.
That all of these ranking things, will determine how smart you are, but they won't determine how far you will go to solve problems. And and and they will determine how much you want to win and how, how much spirit you have. And that's really and then how fit you are for practicing law.
And and I see attorneys all the time, they don't care about what they're doing, and it's very obvious. They're in the wrong place, or if they're, nothing's going to happen with them. And and and those [00:26:00] people are typically, are much more likely to talk about their problems and how serious they are.
Be interested in their clients. So if you care about the work you do then you know, you really shouldn't ever quit practicing law if you'd like to us. And you think about other people, or you can see yourself caring more about other people and you get involved in other people's problems and you take a lot of pride in getting good results then then you know, it's probably a good idea for you to stick with it.
I I can't tell you when to leave, but I can tell you that if you have those qualities, then you're probably gonna you're probably the kind of person that, that should stick with the practice of law and very few people do leave when they have those qualities and you shouldn't really try to stick with it if you have those qualities.
And if you don't, then, then just think, would you want to be represented by you and you don't care then that's an issue. One final thing I would say is just, if you're thinking about leaving the practice of law and you believe that that for whatever reason, you shouldn't be influenced by necessarily about the people around you.
So a lot of people are [00:27:00] very susceptible to the opinions of their peers, by the opinions of other people, by believing that issues that they're having are related to practicing law. But you really need to think through that. I would say fairly clear. Her carefully because if you may be having issues that are unrelated to practicing law there and and you may be being influenced by others when you are maybe in the right profession to begin with.
And you can just be in the wrong atmosphere. And there's bad firms. I There's bad places. And there's places where the attorneys, aren't nice where the culture is bad and where people don't care about their their their clients. And you may be picking up on that.
And and that means you just need to be in another app in another place. How can you tell when it's time to go and leave a law firm well, or the practice of law? The big thing is, I'll just tell you a quick story. The other day I received a call from someone who had started their career at a top law firm.
And when you're induced practice, he quit being an attorney and started some small company that also failed. And then year later the attorney was [00:28:00] interested in relocating out of a high pressure system city and finding a job or mellow city and cause he'd run out of money and he wanted to, have weekends, he wanted to be able to leave at five or six and and there's nothing wrong.
With these sorts of calls. We're wanting these things because people have, they have lives outside of work. They have families, they have hobbies. They, there's nothing saying that you have to be in a high pressure position. I'm not criticizing that at all. He said he just wanted a normal law firm job.
And, but then I said to him, I said, you don't want to have to work weekends if one of your clients has sat in the company and the work needs to get done before, Monday. And he said, no, there's no way I would do that. And I said, you don't want to have to meet potential clients for dinner a few times a week to make sure you always have work to do.
And he said, no, I would rather spend that time with my family. I'm not going to work. And I'm not interested in dealing with other people's problems after normal business hours. So that particular attorney is an example of someone that probably shouldn't be practicing law, at least not in a law firm because he didn't have any interest in the work or helping his clients or really [00:29:00] mean an attorney, his priorities he'd already left the practice of law.
And so his priorities were really about him and in, in, by his weekends now that doesn't mean he shouldn't, he couldn't practice law in a government office and all sorts of art, maybe in house or different types of things, but he's not really a good fit for a law firm. And and anything.
Should be working with other people that needs to take charge of their problems. And that's just it, you can very easily, many times spot attorneys that aren't practicing law because they just talk about themselves and and there's nothing wrong with that. I certainly talk about myself and but the concept of being an advocate means you have to be interested in advancing other people's interests.
And that's what an attorney is all about. It has to just come naturally to you. You have to, there's certain things that come naturally. Certain people are, naturally drawn to different types of people on the dating scene or that, there are, they're naturally drawn to different types of books when they read and things and you have to be naturally drawn to being interested in advancing other people's interests.
And and when, [00:30:00] whenever I talk to people and I, and an attorney, and I hear them talk about their work, their clients and what they love about their job the more I know that they're fit for practicing law. And and you can tell by resumes, by resumes, we'll typically there'll be very well thought out and they'll list all these different things that they're doing and working on, and that's very attractive.
Those are things that make a good attorneys. It's just like that for every profession. You want to. To represent you that cares about you and where you're coming from and understands what's important to you. And that was mostly just, those are all big deals. Those were important things.
you, If you care about other people's problems and you just shouldn't quit, that's the thing you should never really ever quit. If that excites and motivates you, because here's what most people are not like that. The net, most of society, isn't that concerned about other people's problems and it's just not natural and it's not the most people.
It's not something you can teach you, you either have it, or you don't. And some people are natural athletes and some people are naturally good at math. I couldn't believe it when I was, when my daughter was in was five years [00:31:00] old. There was a, another five-year old that lived in our neighborhood that was already doing algebra.
What the hell? This was at Kumon. Very naturally gifted at math. I don't know. Just it's something, so this is, if you have this, then it's a natural gift and and you shouldn't quit practicing law. That's really it. You shouldn't and the world needs you and they need people like you.
And and you can do that, care about other people in other professions too. But if you have that natural gift, then you're really a fit for practicing law. The big thing now is if you are a fit you need to find the right. So I remember when I was in law school, I was dating a girl from a small town in Pennsylvania outside Harrisburg.
And I became close with their family and they arranged for me to interview with a small law firm in the town. And and the law office who was fun. It was in it was in a home that was, several hundred years old. And there was a bunch of antiques and stuff. And and it was an interesting little office and it was nice.
And and I met one attorney, said he had to leave at four to go coach his daughter's soccer practice. And another attorney had just returned from like a two week trip to Costa Rica. And [00:32:00] a lot of the attorneys had golf paraphernalia and so forth in their offices. And another told me that they liked to play at lunch and and the hell had big offices that, were bedrooms.
So they had, they were just it was nice fireplaces because that's how people kept warm and in the past, and talked about their country club and so forth. And then after in my final interview, it was something like five 30. I know I saw these luxury cars are leaving and, the parking lot.
And and a law firm actually hadn't hired anybody in years. Most of the people had been there, their entire careers and and a lot of the attorneys spoke. You know how they were involved in the chamber of commerce and doing this and that. And and they were very happy. They weren't uptight.
They seemed like they were doing well financially. They seemed very wealth adjusted. They had they were all, married and seemed and they were representing local businesses and local people and and they had lives outside of the office. And and and it just seemed a pretty good arrangement that these guys had.
And they were all men by the way, but so hung up, but but they just weren't that concerned about needing an associates to [00:33:00] work crazy hours or spending a lot of money in offices or and that's the thing. They were just a stable, normal law firm. And this sort of law firm by the way, is existed probably for a long time.
This is how law firms obvious had been in the country and when lawyers were liars and didn't work in these kind of giant firms. And although I never knew it at the time, and this was actually an incredible opportunity that I would have had to have been happy as an attorney practicing law.
And and in this town, there were actually Amish people. Not too close by, but in horse child carriages it was actually, it wasn't quite in that. Next town over him, but, and it was, I was being offered a gift of what an attorney could be. I It's a respected profession where you were doing important things where you're working with peers in you're happy and so forth.
And I would never see anything like this again. And it wasn't the type of law firm that I would ever imagine myself working in and certainly never would have accepted because I believed I had to work in a big firm and these attorneys, they all went to local law schools that I never heard of.
And I knew they would never be able to offer me the [00:34:00] type of salary I want it. And and and I thought I was better than all this. This could have been the perfect job. And if I taken a job there, I have no doubt that the odds that I have continued practicing and I would be pretty good.
And and the, in your case you'll probably at some point a counter if you're suited to practicing law, at some point, someone will send you a job or you'll interview for a job, or, you'll get a job and turn it down. That would be the perfect job for you.
I see attorneys do this all the time. I, and it's frustrating and it's upsetting the attorneys find jobs with the government small companies and other places and then and then other places where they could be happy and then they take jobs and wind up unhappy and stat. And it's a lot of cases because their minds.
They're believed that they need to find the largest, most prestigious firms. And even if it's, not better for them and and I've helped countless attorneys find positions like this. And and that's just, it's kinda been my experience that most of the time, most attorneys will either turn the jobs down or those same attorneys will take a job at a more prestigious firm [00:35:00] instead of, and and I see this a lot, as frequently, sometimes as, several times a month and and in many times, attorneys will pick up and move.
So they made, move to New York, from New York city to a smaller market with a spouse or something. And and that'll get them a great job in that area with nice people and so forth, the steady work and and and the job will pay, one-third or whatever of what they were making or half or something.
And and this will be in an area where you could literally buy a house for, a fraction of what, what it would be in a big city. And and I'll say to them, when they don't hit the job, I said, why didn't you take the job? And they'll say it's too much of a step down. And and the idea is, I never have understood this logic because when you find a job many times in a smaller market, your expenses are different.
You may be working with the people you can work with for your entire career. And just because you don't want to work with some of the most aggressive and high pain attorneys on earth. Or, it doesn't mean you have to quit the practice of law. But this is what people do.
They they often consider working anything with the largest firms to be a step down. And and they don't [00:36:00] realize that if you leave a good law firm and and you don't take a job, even a smaller firm that, people will believe that you don't want to practice law anymore.
And then it'll be even harder to get a job. So I knew a New York attorney at once that I spent years trying to get a job doing white collar litigation. And and I finally found him a job in New York in the suburbs of New York. They paid about a hundred thousand dollars a year. And then one of his friends actually got a job in doing general litigation in New York law firm that was more prestigious than his firm for 170,000.
And this is a while ago. So it would have been even more now and he took his friend's job. And I said, why did you turn down in this job? And you said, how can I turn it on a firm with that name? And now, that didn't work out. He was very unhappy. He got his dream job. But he decided to follow the prestige road.
Now he's been, working as a document review attorney for years. He's just never he had such a bad experience. He hated, billing, 2,500 hours a year and commuting and sleep. And and so I just, wonder what would have happened to him if he'd gone into a small firm, and I think he probably would have been much happier and still working [00:37:00] today. Young attorneys are always faced with the added pressure of having the idea of what is important, but it's important to be practicing in a large law firm and they have that drill into them constantly.
But th they're really concerned about how they look to others, I think, and that's what I'm concerned about with you. And if you're, thinking about leaving is that, you may even though the ideal environment exists for you somewhere in your maybe suited to practicing law, you may actually leave for the wrong reasons.
So a lot of people think that it's better to leave the practice of law cause it'll look better than instead of practicing lesser from where their peers will think poorly of them. And and and there's you'll always get a lot of support for that idea because the attorneys.
Don't want competition. Anybody that's left wants that support. Others think that that if they work anywhere that without, the it's, in the law firm that it's going to have the same demands as large institutional law firms.
And that's not necessarily the case. Almost every law firm in the country is not a large institutional law firm. The majority, if you take all the largest national law firms, it's [00:38:00] where people work. I'd say it's a very small percentage of the number of attorneys working in the different practice settings.
And the other thing is law firms often require massive hours from their associates, partners and others and that's just it's difficult. And and it's not something that is necessarily always natural it's what makes money. And and in law firms, large law firms have to make a lot of money because it helps them recruit associates and and it's always a function of how the law firm can do.
And and so there's just a lot to it. And then and there's a lot of disconnect, I think, in the larger law firms, I think many times, and I love large law firms. I'm not have nothing wrong with them, but I think that. A disconnect many times where people believe that work has been done for work sake and not because it's what I was client needs.
And and that's not necessarily the truth. The work's being done because the large law firms are thorough, but at the same time sometimes it's unnecessary work it's actually necessary. The idea is what is it needed to help the client versus what is needed to help the law firms?
This can be one of the reasons to leave. If client a good attorneys [00:39:00] often believe that their client's interests are being harmed some are motivated to help others and and that it can do in a different environment. So let me just say a couple of final points here environment. Yeah. And so the final thing is, I think is that, whatever the environment you work in if you're suited to practicing law, you need to be with people that are gonna make you feel supported and comfortable. And and in a competitive environment make you feel supported and comfortable.
But you need to be around people that match kinda your way of looking at the world and what you think. And and just because you're working with people, you don't like, it doesn't necessarily mean you're in the wrong profession. There are a lot of firms that are just bad fits for individual people.
It may be, you may be more suited being a solo practitioner with a small firm or with a larger firm. And if you're in the wrong fit, it just, it's just the environment. That's really what you're facing and you need to remember that that's not a reason to leave the practice of law working in another environment could drastically, change how you feel about the profession and you should definitely not quit if you're in a position where where you're [00:40:00] going to be happy know where you're, you enjoy helping people.
The final thing I'd say is just, and these are some inclusions and then I will take questions is that the, the years of hard work, it takes for attorneys to end up in a major law firm, all it's really doing is it's giving you a ticket and it's not it, to get in, to get a job it gives you a ticket to work harder and to be part of a team.
And and it's no different, if you work hard to get into the Olympics and think you've made it just because you're in the Olympics, you actually have to train harder the Olympics, because now you're competing with people that are even more competitive. And and you have to step up and work very hard.
So I, the reason I say this, because, you may be 10 or 20 years or more out and thinking about practicing law, but the majority of people that leave very early, because I think that they want to be in a position where they feel like they don't have to work as hard and so forth right away.
And that's not always the, where they don't want the pressure and they want to take their foot off the gas. And actually when you start working. And for the first several years, that's when you have to put your foot the most time, the gas when you start the better you work harder, you work in law [00:41:00] school the better law firm you can get into and then you'll actually have to work even harder there.
And that may not be what you want. And it's okay if you don't want to work in a big firm and don't want the pressure, you may just like the work and you can work in all sorts of places. And and like I said earlier, I I know several attorneys in their eighties that like tennis and play every day.
And her people in the, and they would regardless of, I'm sorry, I know people in their eighties, they play tennis every day and would regardless of how good they were at it, they just love it. And and it's just something that they do and and but other people don't.
And and it just because you liked tennis and you play every day doesn't mean you would want to play 14 hours a day. And so it just think about that as a practice of law, you shouldn't have to work crazy hours and that sort of thing, if you don't like it. So if you like attorney, if you like being an attorney just because you don't like doing it on a industrial scale doesn't mean you should quit or just because you're unhappy in your current firm doesn't mean you should quit.
The big thing is just, and I there's, I could talk to you about reasons to quit practice law forever, but the big thing is just think about if [00:42:00] you're motivated by helping other people. Then you probably should leave, but if you are motivated to helping other people, then you should stay and and then just make sure you're doing so in an environment that works for you.
So I'll take a quick break and and then I'll come back. And when I come back, I'll answer as many questions as anybody has. You can ask questions about this presentation, or you can ask questions about anything related to your career. All the questions of course are anonymous. I'm happy to answer them.
And honestly, this is the favorite part of my week is answering questions. Cause I you can no question is really off limits when it comes to your career. Cause I know a lot of people are suffering silently and and I'll do what I can to help. I'm just going to grab some coffee and then I'll be back in two minutes.
Thanks.
Let's do questions. So give me one second here. I'm just going to pull up
here, I'm just opening a word document so I can show everyone when the questions
All right. So let's get here to the questions. Let's start my video. Ooh, look at that. That's weird.[00:43:00] Give me one second here. It's fun. I don't know. That's really strange.
All right, here we go.
Okay. Questions. Okay. Oh, this is a good question. I like this. Thank you for whoever answered this one. I don't know what oh, what happened to my give me one second. Sorry. I'm pointing toward document again.
Okay. So this first question is okay, good. Your story about the big colic, small law firm where let's see, wherever, once you have to really resonate with me. I ended up from like this over the summer to smaller market, I also came from a top Glasgow, the ultimate, except not from small firm, the small firm after striking out OCI, I received an offering, had a great experience and I can tell this is the type of farm where I could have a future.
However, I still Harbor the goal state in a major firm in the market. And it's something I can't shake. The idea of moving up to a bigger firm is still something I want to pursue. My question is, would it be a mistake for me to pursue a larger firm that if I always, that I've already found I was a good fit and will work in a large law, a small law firm, then my [00:44:00] options in the future.
Okay. That's a good question. So there's really a couple of different ways to look at that. The first thing is I'm assuming, and I don't know but I'm assuming you're a litigator, but I don't know. If it's a small law firm, it's probably going to meet litigation.
Cause most small law firms are litigation, but it doesn't really matter. You have to, one of the things to ask is when you're looking at law firms ask what happened to the people that come, what happened to the people that came before me. And and then the other one is will I be a big fish in a small pond, a fish in a small pond
or small fish in a big pond.
So I think there's a couple of different ways to think about this question. And but the first thing I would say in terms of the people that came before me, that's a question that I really wish I would have answered when, before I went to work at some big law firm one, one particular big law firm that I worked at because those can be good, good stuff or they can be bad, and and then you have to get a sense of what happens to the majority of the people now. And you're at the people that came before you at the smaller level. Are now [00:45:00] partners and they hire very few people and you feel like it's a good fit. That should tell you something that you have a future there.
And if, if bad things happen to them, like you don't, there's no questions or they laughed or they, you don't know then that's not good. So you have to ask that for every employer that you think about working at then the next thing is when you go to work in a large law firm you should also think about the answers to those questions.
And the problem with the large law firms are that a lot of people that go to work in large law firms bad things happen to them. Especially in some of the largest cities now, that's not, it doesn't have an all of them, of course, but but a lot of bad things happen because people get a very bad taste in their mouth.
I You're practicing in an industrial law firm and that's not for everyone. And I don't have any criticisms of it because it actually is what companies require. And there's nothing wrong with this. And this law firms have adapted to that, but, just do good things or bad things happen to do the attorneys you're working with at the smaller law firm look happier, do they not?
And there's a lot of talk like one of. One of the [00:46:00] purposes of all religions is and again, I'm not gonna I'm not doing a religious talk here, but, religion most, yoga exercise therapy,
therapy what else? All this stuff, a lot of it the, I wouldn't say exercise so much, but it does do it while you're doing it. Meditation
is the elimination of the ego, so everyone's trying to eliminate their ego and and the ego is it's is a big problem. And I'm not, I'm not doing I'm not trying to talk to you about psychology or religion or anything, but this is what all these things are doing.
They're all trying to eliminate ego. I know self-improvement is actually many times blowing up ego and different types of religions may try to blow up your ego. For example I kinda talk about any specific religions, but some religions, are all about you. Where you think about you and study you other most, but most religions are about connecting with something that's tied yourself and eliminating your ego because the ego, when you're focused on yourself can hurt you.
So the problem with when you make career decisions based on. As you wind up in bad places. And [00:47:00] that's the point of the talk today was, the people that made decisions based on ego ended up unhappy. And when you make decisions based on how things appear to other people based on how they appear to yourself that can actually harm you a lot in the long run.
And and that's not necessarily the right thing for you now. If you wanna, if you work in a larger law firm there you are going to have opportunities that you won't have in a smaller law firm. Those opportunities will include things like going in house in a larger company, they'll include things like becoming a partner in a big law firm, they'll include access to larger clients and work on more sophisticated matters.
They will include the ability to get deeper in different things and learn different legal skills than you might learn in a smaller firm. They'll include the ability to learn from over a greater variety of people. Bill include the ability to work on matters that are, in, in the in, in the national news.
So it'll include learning having the ability to move to other larger law firms. If you work in a smaller law firm you can still do all that. [00:48:00] You can still move to a larger law firm and you can still develop certain types of clients, but the big thing to understand.
The largest clients and the most sophisticated clients with the most sophisticated work always use the largest firms. Most sophisticated client, unless it's something like patent prosecution or but, so most sophisticated clients use the largest law firms. So like for example I'm from Detroit and and and I don't live in Detroit now, but I'm from there.
And, if general motors or one of these big companies has a huge problem they're going to hire a big law firm in New York or Los Angeles, even though the firms in Detroit, there's some just really awesome ones. But for their biggest problems are probably not going to hire, their bet, the company litigation, or their public, going public and things are going to hire the largest firms in the largest city.
Now, is that something you want to be part of? I don't know. It may not be I personally believe that your ops your goal should be to be happy. And and and if you go someplace w that is the largest firms there's very few [00:49:00] opportunities or very few opportunities for advancement.
And and that may not be something good for you. And so I, I just there's just that their partner heavy there, there's all sorts of things that can hold you back. If th if you go to a smaller firm you'll probably learn how to develop clients.
You'll probably get a book of clients you'll feel you'll feel independent and and, feel secure much sooner if you throw yourself into it. And you will also be rewarded for, probably for throwing yourself into everything with a smaller firm. So I can't tell you what to do.
I can tell you that if you go to a smaller firm and the smaller firm, the odds are pretty good that you'll be practicing law several years from now. And and and probably more happy and well adjusted. And if you don't, the odds are pretty good that you if you try to go to a larger firm that you want, if you want to be in a larger law firm I think you can get into one fairly easily.
You could probably do on campus interviewing this year, and then you could also work get a clerkship federal district court clerkship or something and get a job in a big firm after [00:50:00] that. There's all sorts of things you can do, but frankly, if you found a group of people that you really like, and you like them, and you feel like you're going to get really good training, then you're probably better off.
And this stuff you can't shake that you're talking to. It's really just your ego. That's your ego saying, I need to do this. I need to be the most competitive and really what you'd need to think about. Is, can you be happy? It's that's you know what I would say, and I can't answer that.
And, you may if you do want to be in a large firm you just need to be ready for it, know what to expect. You need to read everything that I'm writing and or written and and study and and that sort of thing.
I, that's what I would recommend and I hope that helps. I know that's a long-winded answer, but it's definitely not an easy decision. Okay. I've been practicing criminal defense for 15 years and for murder cases, molestation cases, I'm feeling burned out. What areas of law have you seen criminal lawyers transitioned into?
There's lots of areas of law that you can transition into. I I was actually looking at some criminal attorneys this morning and I can see how you would be burned out doing that. You have a couple of different options. You could you could [00:51:00] certainly transition to the government.
So that would be one. The other one would be you could transition typically you can transition to litigate. There's some practice areas that are too, and different types of litigation, or you can do she can learn different types of litigation. There's some practice areas that people pick up fairly quickly.
I can, you can pick up immigration law, you can pick up different types of practice areas. You may you may want to transition into white collar litigation, I don't know, but those are some things that I would recommend the other option too, is as a criminal attorney if you've done this, you always can probably teach in law school and do things like that.
And then and then if, in, criminal defense law is, it is its own kind of loss. It's not the same type of litigation as commercial litigation. You certainly can do different types of insurance work and things. Or you may just want to work in a different type of practice setting doing criminal law.
So it's a good question. What I would do is I would, you always want to look at, you want to look at what other people have done. And look up all the criminal attorneys you've seen and see that have left. And it's very it's very common for people [00:52:00] to do other things.
Okay. Okay. Oh, this is a fun question. I love these. So my wife is a real estate agent. How can I use my JD MBA to help a sister? Or what else can I be thinking about doing outside of the law firm? I think you could actually become a real estate agent. I think real estate agents that are attorneys do very well.
Most of them are much happier than they were practicing law. And they're often and they just have, they're very thorough. They, they think through things. You certainly could be a real estate agent yourself. I There's nothing wrong with that. I real estate agents can do sufficiently well, especially in a market like this.
But your JD, you have a JD and MBA, so I don't, I bet that's great. Not all that shows me is you have a lot of motivation and in many times applying that motivation to other things is going to you'll get better results than you would practicing law.
I It's amazing, so many attorneys, by the way, go to get into the legal field and just don't like it, or they, they don't get a lot of very warm reception. One of my neighbors went to a like a fourth year law school. That's no longer business. I guess you [00:53:00] call it the business and And, and he started this giant company that I think he sold for a couple of hundred million dollars.
There's just, there's so many opportunities for people that are attorneys with your skills. And and so I don't, if you're unhappy or you're just not getting a warm reception or you feel like, you're capable of more than
