The Top 16 Biggest Mistakes Attorneys Make Regarding How They Are Perceived by Peers and Supervisors

Transcript

[00:00:00] This question is just some things about how you're perceived by peers and superiors and mistakes that attorneys make. This is mainly for.

[00:00:08]Younger attorneys, but these are actually all as I was reviewing this prior to just starting today,  did it occurred to me that these are all actually very good suggestions and things that many mistakes that I may have made as a young attorney and a lot of young attorneys do make.

[00:00:22] And  even older attorneys to some extent.  This is definitely some good material, even though, like I said, it's not something High road and I don't know how it got on here, but anyway So th there's an idea of creating a bad attitude. And and there are, and every firm, there are people that are perceived as having bad attitudes and there's people that are perceived as having good attitudes.

[00:00:41] And your objective really is to be perceived as one of the people that have a good attitude and  and  they're different types of behaviors. In order to be have the right type of behavior and B you've seen that you want to be seen in the right way.

[00:00:54] You don't want to be seen as Harrogate. And typically, like a lot of the best attorneys are not seen as arrogance [00:01:00] they're seen as the opposite and and especially with their superiors. And and then the other thing is just chatting with colleagues. You always want to be seen as social and fitting in and and and if he'd just bet you've spent too much time, you can be seen as a gossiper and honesty is another one.

[00:01:16]That's obviously very important. So these are just some qualities that you don't want to display at work. And I'll go through them one by one. One of them is arrogance being arrogant. Obviously it turns a lot of people off.  So if you appears arrogant then that's obviously not going to help you.

[00:01:33] I've known lots of arrogant attorneys throughout the years and any time  you come across as very arrogant that can hurt you. And th the main thing is we'd like people for how they make us feel. There's a famous quote where they talk about I don't know.

[00:01:47] It's I forget who the author is, but it's, we don't remember how people, things, people did remember how they made us feel. You want to be people want to be around those and make them feel good about themselves. So being arrogant is something that makes [00:02:00] people feel bad about themselves and badly about themselves.

[00:02:02] And if you're arrogant that will turn people off now. So it makes them want to attack you and young attorneys need other people to succeed.  You need people that are going to show you things and. And and help you and and take care of you  and that aren't afraid to point out your weaknesses.

[00:02:19] And I know a lot of people and I, it's funny, cause I was thinking about this today before I knew what I was going to talk about. And I know some people that just have a very difficult time and their lives and in a lot of cases is because. They always act like they know everything or they believe that they don't need other people's help and they can do everything on their own.

[00:02:40] And and that, that is a real weakness. Anytime you're arrogant, you portray that. And I've also noticed that a lot of the smartest people. Or the ones that ask the most questions and pretend like they don't know the most. And and they're very open to getting information for other people because when you're open, you're getting information from other people.

[00:02:58] Those people tend to really want to [00:03:00] help you. And. And that's a good thing. And they'll look out for you and they'll show you roadblocks and things that you would have hit maybe on your own. And so that can be helpful.  And and the other thing is the, to realize is there, and this is true is there's really no such thing as a meritocracy and.

[00:03:17] And everything that sorts itself out and firms and organizations happens because of how you're making other people feel. And and that means making them feel like you're, you have their back with work or and that sort of thing. So even if you did very well in school and you're the smartest person there, if you come across as that then.

[00:03:36] No, one's going to want to help you. And and those stellar credentials mean nothing.  So you have to be very careful. You can never act like you're a bigger deal than you are because of, or because of things you've done in the past, or feel arrogant about that.

[00:03:51] So you just have to be very careful and yeah. And many people aren't and I've seen especially young attorneys and even old attorneys. When the older attorneys get arrogant, sometimes [00:04:00] people, the instinct is to stomp on them right away for them to make a mistake.  Here's some things that can be considered arrogant.

[00:04:07]A lot of people that went to great law schools will mention their schools or colleges and stuff, and. They'll just keep mentioned it as if it's some sort of proof, their worthiness as an attorney. And it's not, the things you do with your law degree are more important than where you went to school, going to school.

[00:04:24] It's just a question of, a recognition that at some point in your life, you've worked hard to get good grades and you were able to test well and do some other things that might've been oppressive.  You need to be very careful about. Talking about schools and things because that and especially the idea is when you do that, if someone didn't go to as good a school as you, and then their instinct is going to be okay, if you make them feel badly about themselves as to take you now, they're going to want it.

[00:04:50] They're want to push you down a level. And so why would you possibly set yourself up for that and and make people not like you, you do you want to do the opposite and that's what the smartest [00:05:00] people do.  And if you did very well in school, everyone knows it and and and but that's really not it.

[00:05:06]There's nothing other than your school, your schools, how you make people feel and how you make them, like you, when you get into an organization, this is more important than anything. And and if you didn't go to a great school, people that don't go to great schools, they spend a lot of their time.

[00:05:22] Talking about how went to a grade school with, they're not really that smart and people that went to grade schools spend all their time, thinking about how they went to a great school and someone else didn't go a great school. So it's just a waste of time to get involved in that is not a smart thing.

[00:05:38] And you just don't want to, you want to make your performance on the job. That's what matters. And no the, so just don't mention things about this, I guess it's not a good thing,  the thing is that when I, anytime that I meet the most powerful people that they typically talk the least about their accomplishments or people that become popular are Wow, very powerful later when they were on the [00:06:00] way up, they didn't talk about their accomplishments.

[00:06:02] So if you're secure in the things you're doing, you're not going to really talk a lot about that. And that's very helpful. So you need to focus your attention on things that help people and make them better. And and create  an impression about your competence but you should never be bragging about your competence.

[00:06:21] Don't get up and talk about all the things that I've done greatly, very well and so forth. I try not to, because if you do that, then it just makes people resent you that haven't done that, or want to take you down. And so you should never set yourself up to be hurt. And No, there's a this is a story I guess.

[00:06:39] And it's not one that I heard. So I, I don't know that I can really tell it because I heard a call that you have to learn how to treat others the way you want to be treated. And and a lot of these are very simple lessons. You've learned to treat people the way you'd want to be treated, but many times people don't pick up on those.

[00:06:56]Those are all kinds of important. And a lot of times, when [00:07:00] people got a really good schools, they bring it up right away and and you shouldn't want to put people on the defensive ever, you should always want people to feel good about you based on the person you are and your interest in them and so forth.

[00:07:12] Okay. So let me see this. This is things again that I wasn't involved in. So I'm going to go through this apologize for this weird PowerPoint today. But the thing is you let other people brag about you. You let your credentials be seen and people, say who is this person based on how good your work is.

[00:07:29] And and then you can live up to your credentials by doing very good work and showing that you're just not Booksmart. And those are some kind of important things. That I would recommend you want to make sure that you let other people brag about you. It's interesting in the recruiting context in terms of my job, like one of the things that I do is I always, when I talk to.

[00:07:52] Candidates. So when our recruiters here talk to candidates will always drag out all those create information about them. And then we'll put that in letters to the [00:08:00] firms and we'll communicate that. And people are very receptive to it when we do it. But when you do it yourself people don't like it. So it's better to let other people brag about how many times in yourself.

[00:08:11]You can certainly have things on your resume if they're very impressive, but. You really need to try to let other people brag about you. And I always thought that was interesting. Many times I'll work with candidates and they will apply to firms on their own and have not. Haven't gotten interviews with them and then I'll get involved and get them a bunch of interviews at the same firms.

[00:08:29] And it's just because someone else is doing the bragging. And if someone else is bragging for you, it carries a lot more weight.  Another thing that can hurt your attitude is to believe you deserve things. Many times people that have worked at certain firms believe they were deserved things that they've.

[00:08:45] Gotten jobs, gone to certain law schools. If they've had a certain pass, believe they deserve things. And and you just need to understand that when you work for somebody, you need to earn everything and and you need to accept you need to earn what [00:09:00] you're getting.

[00:09:00] And and that's one of the more important things I would say. So you should never come in believing you deserve certain things. I, nothing for me is more of a turnoff than.  When people tell me if they do extra work, they're going to deserve a raise or this, they deserve this, or they deserve that.

[00:09:15] And and you just, you need to be very careful. You need to believe that you earn everything that you get and it makes employers feel a lot better when when they awarded you for something and not when you ask for something. So that's a very important thing.  And you also need to understand that money is not something you should be focused on.

[00:09:35] Certainly there are employers who will pay you less than they should. And and you can correct that, but all law firms know what other law firms pay and and you, so you need to be very careful about money issues, especially as a young attorneys, young attorney, you're always there to get training and that's really what you should be most concerned about.

[00:09:53]And so this, these are just some things about people focusing their energy on things that they [00:10:00] believe they deserve.  And and other things that a lot of times people will do is people are hungry for acknowledgment. So attorneys will get into law firms, they'll get into other places and they'll start lording their status over.

[00:10:12] People will tell secretaries that they're the attorney there. This and that sort of thing, or they will not be willing to do certain tasks or they'll think they're too good for things. And and so you just need to be very careful about those kinds of things as well. And and just not think that you're more important than doing various tasks.

[00:10:32]And the other thing that I think  is a real problem, too, that people make is they, you really have no idea, especially when you're starting out what being an attorney is all about. So it is important to do everything you can to figure things out before you ask questions. But when you do ask questions to make sure that,  that, you've researched things and you don't, you can't figure out the answer for yourself before you're bothering someone with a question.

[00:10:54]But being an attorney learned how to be an attorney takes years. And it's not something that you should [00:11:00] be expected to know about yet. And yeah. And then this is another thing is a lot of times people believe that there's no point socializing with her. Their peers and they only want a social,  socialized people that are more senior than them, or have more power or people that they believe are in the, in crowd and so forth.

[00:11:22] And you really need to impress everybody in a law firm and do a good job with everyone in order to get ahead. So including your peers and including even people that aren't doing well. So that's something else to keep in mind. That's important because people. Are very good at undermining people that they believe  or not.

[00:11:40]Good people that are, that they're jealous of and so forth. So that's important to be careful of couldn't then a second big mistake that people do is they have a lot of times they have a lot of lack of self-confidence and you definitely need to being arrogant is important to not be, but at the same time  you, you need [00:12:00] to be self-confident and sometimes people were just afraid of doing different tasks and you really can't be.

[00:12:05] You have to, if you're asked to do something, you need to March and do it. And that's important. And and so you just need to make sure that you are confident and and you can't ever say you can't do something you're not ready.  You need to really be able to do whatever your ass.

[00:12:21] And that's another thing that I've seen very good attorneys do is they will do what you ask them to do. Assuming it's legal, but almost everything is. And and so you can't. Really turned down assignments. If you get him to sign, when you don't understand that you need to figure out how to do it.

[00:12:35]If you're asked to do a deposition and no one's trained you how to do a deposition, then you should ask people about depositions. But at the same time, you should go and read in the library and study and do everything you can to learn how to do it. And and figure it out.  Another thing that is not good is when you start being very competitive with your colleagues you can be competitive with your colleagues but if you start undermining them and not providing information and and [00:13:00] doing things that are they believe are against their interests.

[00:13:02] That's going to create a lot of problems and you will get in trouble. And and a lot of times the people that you may have been competitive, where they're trying to undermine could also be people that you will need later on. So cultivating. Good relationships with your peers is something that you should also be very aware of.

[00:13:20] And and that kind of competition with colleagues has never really that good of an idea you need to be careful.  And then same thing not how not. Making sure that you you do not embrace your shit gray sheet, you just do nothing but work. That's not enough as well.

[00:13:36]So your clients are the people that work above you and they're also  your, even your the people that you work with. So you need to be very careful. About that and that, and then interrupting and swearing people don't like that. Most partners don't like to be interrupted.

[00:13:52]They get very upset about that clients. Many times young attorneys, especially are very excited to make a point and they will interrupt [00:14:00] people. And that's not something you should ever do. So you need to be careful about that. I've seen people do that quite a bit. And and I actually do it a lot and it's not a good quality.

[00:14:09] The other thing that is very bad that you need to be careful about is complaining about your work. You're expecting in a law firm to. To be excited about getting different types of work and to like it, and to want to get more work means you're able to become a better attorney and being busy means you have employment security.

[00:14:28]There's just a lot of things that are very important. And I can honestly say that most of the best attorneys that I know never complain about their work and and they just kinda, take it as a comp stay. And a lot of the worst attorneys do complain about the work. So that's a negative complaining about clients is a bad thing.

[00:14:45] I remember there was a partner that I was working for that spoken very negatively about one of his clients and and pretty soon he Do you know, it was in a position where he didn't have any clients. Most clients, there's all sorts of issues with them, but complaining [00:15:00] about your clients and the people that are paying your bills is never a good idea.

[00:15:03] And as an attorney, you're expected to be an advocate and not someone that complains about your clients.  And the same thing with the personal life once someone starts prioritizing their personal life above their clients and their work that can create problems. And in many law firms, it doesn't necessarily mean that in government jobs, in certain types of things, but you have to be there for your clients and their problems happen 24 hours a day.

[00:15:27] And most law firms have demands that are happening 24 hours a day. So that's something you have to be careful of. And and you have to be in the right environment. And if you make your personal life more important than your than your work life, then it's going to come back and Okay. And then giggly  remember one attorney that I once hired.

[00:15:46] I hired her because she was so giggly and I knew she would be good at recruiting, but I didn't think she would be as good at being a lawyer because of that. And she used to laugh all the time and so that, that's funny, but having too good of a personality [00:16:00] lawyers are expected to be serious.

[00:16:01] I'm gonna hate to bring that up, but it's just kinda how it is. And then just comparing yourself to others and that's always not a good idea. Yeah. You shouldn't really worry too much about that. A lot of people are obsessed with that kind of thing. So it's not something I'd recommend.

[00:16:14]Being a Brown noser, that's never a good idea. So flattering people too much you need to be careful about that. People can pick up on that. You're the biggest form of flattery is doing very good work for people. And they appreciate that the most. And so that's what you should be careful about.

[00:16:30]And then this is  No, not really that important on Colin people's behavior. I don't know that I would have written about that. So I'm not going to cover that. And then anytime you suggest that an employer is a stepping stone, that's a bad thing. I see people all the time that come into interviews and so forth.

[00:16:49] And we'll say things like, I, I'm only going to do this for a short period of time and then I want to do something else or this person wants to. Work in this firm for only a short time before they do [00:17:00] something else. And most employers, when they're hiring people, they're hiring them on the basis that they're going to commit to the firm and they're going to stay there.

[00:17:06] Long-term  and that's important. So your goal in any firm needs to come in to, to be there permanently. And if you're not coming in with that mindset, then the firm's going to perceive the you're probably not going to do a good job. So that's going to hurt you.  Alcohol or drugs is always a bad idea.

[00:17:22]I've seen that harm a lot of careers probably more with drugs actually than alcohol but that's  bad can be a bad thing that can just make people ineffective and tired and.   And create all sorts of problems. I've seen a lot of careers messed up. I it's unfortunate that people I never would have expected to.

[00:17:43] You have to be very careful with that. And and then too much pro bono is never a good idea just because if you do a lot of pro bono, then that's going to many times will come across as you're more concerned with that and the work that's paying their salary.

[00:17:58]And then this is a big one, [00:18:00] obviously is racist or sexist behavior that can get everyone.  The best attorneys will be very careful with all this stuff. They won't make any opinion one way or another known most people are tribal, so they, they do prefer to, spend their free time with people, their own religion, many times or things, but you just need to be very careful about anything that looks racist or sexist.

[00:18:23] It's toxic and it can really hurt you.  So these are just some common mistakes. This was a quick little webinar today. I apologize. Jaya saw that it wasn't longer. I was just, it's not a topic that.  Necessarily I didn't write this article I, it's hard to speak with a ton of enthusiasm about it, but I agree with a lot of things that were said.

[00:18:42] And if anybody has any questions, I will start answering those now and just, we can spend as much time as you guys want in question today. And I'm happy to answer all of them. And let me just do one thing here. Let me see. And I can. Pick something and I'll put up a blank document here on the [00:19:00] screen.

[00:19:00]Let's see here. Second,

[00:19:03]put up the documents to blank document to cover all this types of questions and then we'll get started. Okay. Let me see here.

[00:19:12]And these are just things that I was going to do. Okay. So the first question is, let me pull this up.  Okay. Is I see here, I got an accepted, an offer from my two L summer from last summer. I've had some medical crop up and I'm trying to just have, it's better you to use my student health insurance now, or wait until the firm's plan next fall. Would we probably email the recruiting office to contact get their info on health insurance benefits?

[00:19:39] No, I think that's perfectly fine to talk to the firm about your health insurance benefits right now, you would typically, especially if it's a smaller firm or a larger firm, they're probably not gonna have any issues with that. Okay. You mentioned.

[00:19:53]Okay. Next one is next question. Yes. Oh, the other one too, about your medical stuff. [00:20:00] And health insurance benefits. I wouldn't bring up anything about your health insurance or your health problems. And that's one of the things too, that you need to be careful of when you get into law firms is you never really liars are really have to be careful so that you have to be careful about anytime you expose weaknesses because people will hold those weaknesses against you or they will  they're just something to be very careful about.

[00:20:26] So I don't know what your health insurance stuff is, but sorry, it's not a big deal either way, but typically just being you have to be careful about talking to people too much about that sort of thing, because.  They could hold it against you as well.

[00:20:39] I'm saying, so you just want to be careful to some extent. Okay. And I'm not saying that law firms are evil places, but you just you don't want to bring your health into the office and make it an issue. If you don't have to. For questions, it's just, why are firms, is it okay to see our culture is better, more than larger firms interviews and cobalt litigators and [00:21:00] transactional hours.

[00:21:00] If I tell them our liquid aggression and transaction would be a problem, but to most boutique firms care about, look for candidates, any information would be appreciated. Okay. Okay. So if somebody says, why are firms? So you need to understand who the audience of the firm is. And  so there's an article on BCG there's Y there's articles about, 25 reasons to choose boutique firms or something like that, and then reasons not to work in a boutique.

[00:21:25] That it's not just about culture. Law, there's all sorts of reasons. That you may want to work in a firm. I'm assuming here that you're a summer associate or something along those lines. They're not really going to look at most of that. I did put in the questions you said, what about Keke firms care most when looking for candidates?

[00:21:43] What. Firms care about most of them looking for candidates. And so these are really the things they care about. They care about if you can do the job, which is just your education skills and experience. And I go through these a lot because these are really important. And then they look at whether or not you can be managed.

[00:21:58]Whether or not you're going to fit [00:22:00] in and do the work support the firm or you'll undermine them follow directions whether or not you're likely to stick around, they think. You're likely to stick around and if you really want the job, so your questions are about one in the job.

[00:22:13] And so a lot of times what they ask, why our firm, it could be a geographic area. If you're interviewing in an area close to home, it could be you may not know about the culture, so it's hard to comment on the culture when you maybe interviewing there the first time you there's all sorts of things.

[00:22:29] And I don't know that they're really going to ask that kind of question. Like why are firms so much, but having an interest in the kind of work that the firm does, being able to talk about it being enthusiastic Boutique firms. The main thing that they're concerned with is they want to make sure that you're going to stick around.

[00:22:45] Boutique firms always have not always, but a lot of them have inferior to complex as compared to large firms because. They don't necessarily have the resources. They may not pay as much to maybe all sorts of other issues with them. And so they really want to make sure that people really want to [00:23:00] work there.

[00:23:00] And saying the things you like about the firm and are important and most firms will talk about, the reasons that they're better and they'll say more person contact, or we'll say there's more opportunities to be partner or they'll say, all sorts of things like that.

[00:23:14] So you need to really understand what the firm's about and, typically just  doing your, interviewing your bass. A lot of it just comes down to connection and there's a lot of articles on interviewing and so forth on the BCG website and also lacrosse.

[00:23:29] And I would look at those, but these are the big things you always need to think about  and if they want to know why you're from, then you need to come up with some good reasons typically. Okay. So let's see here

[00:23:41]question and ask as many questions as you guys have. I'm happy to answer them all.  I'm a 2020 graduate who changing markets, but staying in the same practice group at the end of December, I applied directly to affirm after seeing their job posting, I received a screener ran in bank the next day, the partner, and last ones, he was invited to a zoom call.

[00:23:59] The two [00:24:00] partners per partner basically passed a couple of very far questions, how expectations we want to move into that market. And he said, you're the top of this, but I'm talking to other parents every week and I'll send you an email Friday, let you know the next steps. We typically like to see them in person, but COVID obviously makes it very difficult.

[00:24:14] After waiting for the long weekend, I still haven't heard anything. Should I reach out or give them time? Okay. So that's a great question. So typically law firms are notorious about not necessarily getting back to people  and it's not necessarily that that they've forgotten about you.

[00:24:29] It's typically may just be because they have no th there's no urgency. He needed to talk to someone. He got busy on a Friday and something else happened and it's just not a priority for them. So there's nothing wrong with following up.  And and asking him but and these four questions basically mean, it sounds like he's a little rushed and many times firms don't want to take a lot of time getting to know someone.

[00:24:55] They just want to ask the questions and move on. So I would recommend maybe [00:25:00] just telling them that you really liked them and asking them if they've had the opportunity to make a decision and. If you can do that. I think that's probably enough. I don't think you really need to worry too much about that.

[00:25:12] In addition to that's what I would recommend. It. It's common. It's very common for attorneys to interview and they never hear anything. It's common for you to apply to places. And then five or six months later, hear something, all these things happen and and so you just need to be very.

[00:25:28]Careful, I'm not careful, but not worry too much about it.  Let's see here. Okay. This is a fun question. We get these kinds of questions all the time, but let me just see here. I'm sorry. I answered by. Okay. Okay. So this question is I'm a first year, just a few months in. Artists trust and anxious.

[00:25:47] 99% of the time for various reasons, constant urgent emails, late nights, conflicting fees, instruction, and blame for not being a mind reader. Anxiety has gotten so bad. I've experienced physical symptoms. Shaking is [00:26:00] Harmonia. Lack of appetite. Talkie cardia. Wow. Waking up with a physical feeling of dread, mostly just looking to see what physical symptoms people have, experiences resolved, a big law to feel less alone.

[00:26:11] How long should I put up with this before calling it quits? I feel like I'm just not cut out for this. Also. I don't want to see medication for anxiety solely because of a toxic work environment. I've only experienced minor situational anxiety like that before this. Oh, okay. So this is a great question.

[00:26:28]And thank you for asking it. I think that a lot of people here probably really appreciate you taking the time to ask this question, because this is something that I certainly have experienced up for hotel some quick personal stories. I remember one time I went into work on a Wednesday or maybe Wednesday or Thursday morning, and I didn't get back until Sunday morning.

[00:26:52] And and then I was so jacked up on coffee and everything that I couldn't fall asleep for at least an hour or two. And then [00:27:00] finally, When I got to sleep the phone rang and it was a partner saying she hadn't gotten the memo that I had been writing. It was just an emergency memo. And  and she wanted me to get in the car and drive to work and resend it to her.

[00:27:12] And what had happened was the firm's servers on Sundays were always reset. And so the emails were delayed anyway, it was horrible. And I got so mad. I remember I slam my arm against a wall, like the back of my arm. And and it literally, I can still feel the numbness there to this day.

[00:27:29]Cause I hit it so hard and and it was just very stressful. And and at that point I remember I did go to the doctor and I was investigating different prescription medicines to deal with the stress. Cause it was very difficult. To deal with. And instead of that, I think I bought I don't know some vitamins or something, but it was just not smart.

[00:27:48] The point is like this stuff can really stress you out. And I think that one of the the, a lot of the stress you're feeling with the urgent emails and the late nights and so forth is many [00:28:00] times just endemic to. Being an associate in a law firm, and there's nothing wrong with any of that.

[00:28:05] And it's stuff you can get used to, but your problem is you're trying to to satisfy too many people, I think can you're and you don't believe that you can. There's a sense of hopelessness that comes from working somewhere. There's interesting. I was reading what is that book?

[00:28:22]Yeah, I forgot what I was reading this weekend.

[00:28:25]That's a famous book about living in a concentration camp and  and what happens to God, what is the book man's search for? Meaning Viktor Frankl? I was reading that this weekend. And what was interesting about it is they were talking about that. One of the reasons that people feel so much stress and they get really unhappy and people would fail is because  they, and they're in this horrible environment and they just, they lose a sense of hope, but they don't have hope in something in the future.

[00:28:52] So you can just start building something into your life where you're looking forward to weekends or time off or and then you [00:29:00] also, I would recommend setting limits with. People in your firm and just saying, I don't have the time to do this.  And not taking too many assignments.

[00:29:08]If you don't have the time, you don't have the time and you just have to be farmed because the tendency is to want to please everyone. And and you can't necessarily do it.  This sounds pretty extreme. Now, the shaking insomnia. Heart problems raking up a physical feelings of drive.

[00:29:24] So you need to break up your day. You need to exercise, you need to you need to, you need to pull the plug at some point, meaning, I would say every night at, seven or something, you just stop and and then you avoid avoid using substances alcohol and things to deal with the stress. That's how a lot of people do it. But I would be very careful with that. And and then you need to be part of, a support group or something.  And that's an idea that I have I'm trying to do that sort of right now with this group, but it would be nice if there was a group where, attorneys can get together and support one [00:30:00] another.

[00:30:00]Anonymously or even not anonymously, just talking about the problems with our jobs, cause it can be very stressful. And and you probably don't need medication  but you probably you do need to set better limits. And so a law firm and this may not be the right law firm for you.

[00:30:16]But setting limits and figuring out working with the right people to make you comfortable and people that who, whose work style matches your own and who are going to give you more positive feedback might be the best idea, but everything that you're talking about, I certainly felt working in law firms.

[00:30:34]My biggest sense was. Not knowing what the future would hold and not looking forward to the future. That was what was scary for me which is what I thought about with Victor Frankl and people, when they die in concentration camps, they would die because they lost hope in the future.

[00:30:48] And the people that did well would look forward to things they would, and they would find beauty in everyday life and so forth. So in your case, I would recommend that. You have something you look forward to each day. [00:31:00] If you're working at home, you'd take a break to exercise for an hour during the middle of the day or an hour and a half to go running around the block.

[00:31:07] You'd look forward to that in the morning. Then you look forward to stopping work at night at seven and eating and maybe not working so much. And then you look forward to and then you set limits with people.  It is a good idea to set limits. A lot of the most successful attorneys I know actually would, when they couldn't do things, they would turn down work and and they would make themselves clear and and make themselves was clear that they didn't have the time, or they wouldn't be able to do a good job.

[00:31:34] And they controlled their time. The thing is with all this work and all the things that you're doing. As a young attorney, no one is ever going to tell you to slow down. So no one's ever going to tell you not to work so hard. No one's ever going to tell you  not to burn yourself out and so forth.

[00:31:50]You have to do all this yourself and you have to control it. And you can you can become partner in a major law firm and do all these things without having to be, be on [00:32:00] top of all this stuff all the time. You can't, you can you don't have to do all these assignments and so forth.

[00:32:05]It looks like there are a lot of late nights urgent emails, confusing instructions and so forth, but you have to be careful. The biggest thing to do is to Be careful about who you work with. Start getting 10 cents for that too. And turn down, work from people that you don't think are going to be helpful.

[00:32:22] And then also to the extent you can maybe talking to other associates and learning how they're coping so many times, what will happen is. There'll be other people in your firm that are doing fine and you need to get their mindset and how they're able to cope with that. And learning from them can also be helpful.

[00:32:40] And then many firms have mentors and so forth. And if you have a mentor that you can talk to a more senior attorney that would be very helpful. And the big thing I would say is not to allow all this, to get you down right away. You need to, the stresses of learning. This are much.

[00:32:56] Difficult because you don't know what you're doing as a first year. And [00:33:00] as you get more into it and you're like one or two years in you will have a much better sense of about this. And a lot of the things you're saying are go away once you get more senior. Okay. That was a big one.

[00:33:12] Thank you for asking that question and if you have any follow-ups sure. That question helped a lot of people and it was a great question. Okay.  Yeah. And just remember that you're not allowing any of this but you knew that the other thing too is many times has just this predict question, taking a walk and all those sorts of things can be very helpful, but these are all things that personally, I didn't like as much about being an attorney and I'm currently admitted in New York, my husband and I will likely be relocating to Rhode Island after my clerkship and Albert climb to firms of Boston.

[00:33:42] I can wave into Massachusetts, my AB spar, but I can't wave into Rhode Island. My score is too old. Do you have any guidance as to whether it be permissible live in Rhode Island, but practicing the Massachusetts firm? I have no idea. I'm sorry. I can't answer that question. I apologize. I don't think it matters, but I don't know.

[00:33:59]Huh. [00:34:00] Question is staffing and building matter for juniors, especially first years. How is it done? Yeah. So typically staffing is done in all sorts of different ways. Sometimes law firms you'll have to go to someone. Someone will be in charge of handing out assignments and then all the partners will tell that person when they have work and then that person will call up people to get them to do work or message them, or you'll have to go.

[00:34:23]Ask for work for other people. So it can be done all sorts of different ways at different firms. The big thing though, is to make sure you're always busy. You're expected to get work. However, work is handed out and to be busy and not to make excuses for not having worked so lots of times people will lose their jobs and big firms because they weren't able to go out.

[00:34:45] Hot get work. And so getting work from more senior attorneys is really part of the job. Do you need to do that? And you need to do it in the practice areas you're most interested at. So going out and finding work is always very important and and there's different ways it's done most of the time.

[00:35:00] [00:34:59] There's someone that's in charge of giving assignments to junior attorneys and that you can go. And when you need work, you go to them and ask them for work. Cannot see here. Okay.

[00:35:09]Question. Do you have any opinion handed an opposite partner to associate ratio in a particular group? For example, a smaller office than has multiple partners or councils, but only a couple of associates and a group versus a bigger opposite. It has a good distribution all levels. So the big thing is to keep in mind is from a financial standpoint, the more associates there are in an office.

[00:35:29] Generally the more financially well off that firm is, and that means that there's a lot of work and the fewer associates who are in an office based on that ratio the more the partners are doing their own work. So you're usually better off being in an office with more associates if you are in an office with fewer associates many times you kinda overwhelmed with work and even in different practice areas.

[00:35:53]But  you're typically going to be better off in an office with lots of associates. Lots of associates means that there's a lot of work for juniors [00:36:00] to do very few. Associates means there's not. And it kind depends on the group, but I think as a, as an associate, you're typically better off working in firms with more associates and fewer because that's a sign that there's probably a lot more work to go around in different types of work.

[00:36:18]Okay. Sue Gander.

[00:36:20]Okay. I am a law student. Let's see here. Any questions you guys have today is great. This was good. We had a shorter presentation.  I'm a lost, you've just gone through OCI, but fortunately I have a number of callbacks. I'm a big firms in a major market. I have one wrinkle down. That's my prelaunch experience.

[00:36:36] I mostly worked in government positions, competitive jobs for young people, but career services. Is warned that this will make me look like I don't want to work in a law firm. This is for me not the case. And you're going to work in a law firm, but how can I overcome this presumption? Okay. So there is a prejudice in law firms against government.

[00:36:58]People from government jobs many [00:37:00] times. And there's a couple of reasons for that. One of them is when you're working in government jobs, the typically there's it's not the private sector there's not a lot of need to produce really good work. It doesn't depend on, it depends on the government.

[00:37:13] But, that there's not as much pressure from paying clients. There's an arrogance that comes with many government jobs. And most government jobs, people leave at normal hours, aren't as hungry and and a bunch of other things. And then he had very good benefits. It's just a whole host of reasons.

[00:37:29] That the private sector kind of is against people  in from the government positions. And when you go into the government, many times, it's hard to go back to a law firm if you haven't started out in a law firm. So we're spending a lot of time in a law firm. So I don't know that government experience is a bad thing.

[00:37:46]But at the same time if you're getting a lot of callbacks, I don't think it's really going to be much of a problem. All you need to do is stress, how much you want to work in a law firm. I remember in my first summer I worked in in Washington, [00:38:00] DC for the government and everyone there just seemed so Dowdy and depressed and slow moving.

[00:38:04] And and then I would see people in the law firms in Washington, DC, and they all look so. Enthusiastic when they were better dressed, they were talking fast. It just looked like a much better thing. And and then, the government office I was in was pretty much dead by five every night.

[00:38:19]So I really would recommend to the extent you can. Working in a and making them clear why you want to work in a a loss and a law firm and just, put on the, the appearance of someone that wants to work in a law firm, as opposed to the appearance just looking hungry and that sort of thing.

[00:38:37] So I don't think of how too much of a problem. I think what career services is warn you against is the presumptions that people make many times against law firm attorneys. It's in house. Government Turks.

[00:38:48] So someone wrote, can you share this article and perhaps other articles that have been covered recently? Yeah. So these articles are all in the BCG website you should be able to find all of those articles there. [00:39:00] So let's do this next one looks interesting. See here.  And thanks for all of these questions today, everyone's asking great questions.

[00:39:08]So it was very helpful for everyone. So thank you for from me to from everyone else. Who's asking these too, because this is I think your questions are helping a lot of people. Okay. So let's see here in the past few months, I've been looking to lateral every time I ladder all I'm told upfront that I'm the first person you're interviewing the process will take awhile.

[00:39:28] I really don't like being the first because I think firms tend to forget when you're the first interviewee. I recently got a call back request from another firm asking for a bail building in the coming weeks. Should I tell them I'm not available until a few weeks? So I've only been one of the first interviews.

[00:39:41] I don't know if there's any truth to my being forgotten at the timber time at the time of her decides moving to Canada. No you should never tell the firm you should go in and interview right away and then and then make sure. After the interview  they're still aware many times law firms may say to the first person and there's starting, the [00:40:00] process will take awhile this many times when they say that's just seeing really, and I'm not trying to be rude here.

[00:40:06]But I think they're probably saying that a lot of times, because they, they may not want to tell you that they don't think you're a good fit in the interview. I'm not trying to be rude, but that's many times what they'll do which is okay, it's just a learning lesson.

[00:40:18] You need to find the right firm. But you should always interview as soon as you can, when a law firm will also tell you. And and I do think that many times. The later people interviewed do have a better chance because they're fresher. Players are out for their self-interests.

[00:40:33] So they're gonna, they're gonna hire the person that they think is the best. And again, these are the questions that they're always asking. Can you do the job? And then can you be managed while you do the job? Long-term do you really want the job? And so just keep all that in mind when you're interviewing and there's nothing wrong but you really need to study interviewing and think about the things you may be saying in your interviews.

[00:40:56] And there is some articles and stuff on BCG about interviewing [00:41:00] a lot of them that I would recommend reviewing and and hopefully. That can help you. I don't think you're being forgotten. I think, you need to make, you shouldn't be, you should be making the best impression you possibly can, so you're not forgotten.

[00:41:12] And and you need to come in really wanting the job and looking like a good fit and psyching yourself up for the interview. Okay. Let's see. Yeah, these are all great questions. You guys are really on top of it, so thank you very much for emitted good questions.  All right. I have a call back with a vault 20 from and very much want to set myself apart. They've sent me a list of people I'll be interviewing with is it creepy to read some of their publications and ask them about the work?

[00:41:38] Is it necessary? I'm not sure what the proper approaches. Okay, so here we go. So this, these questions, by the way, everything comes, always comes back to these anytime that someone's asking an interview. And so I, there is an article on here, like the only three reasons law firms ever hire someone or something.

[00:41:55]So if you can do the job if you've got an interview pretty much, this is all on your [00:42:00] resume, so they know you can do it. Being managed means and desire to work in a firm that the person that, by the way, that had the question about the government stuff. A lot of times, the reason they don't like government people is because of the management stuff.

[00:42:14]It's they may not want to be managed. They may not want to work as hard. All those sorts of things. They may not be able to do the job and men are having to manage. They may. But here, what you're saying is you're saying, should I not pretend like I really want the job.

[00:42:27] And of course you should pretend like you want the job. So reading their publications and talking to them about them and acting interested in this means that you want the job. It also shows you probably do the job long-term if you're interested in this kind of stuff, it also shows that you can be manners if you respect the person.

[00:42:44]And also shows that you can do the job because you're interested in the material. So this is like one of the smartest things you can possibly do. Of course you should read it, publications. Anything you can do  to talk and to talk about things that they're interested in, especially the more current stuff is very smart.

[00:42:58]That's something that's going to [00:43:00] distinguish you that most people won't do. Most people come into a job with a sense of entitlement interview. Like why wouldn't the person want to hire me? But if you do this, no, it's not creepy. It's exactly what you should be doing. And so anytime you're doing something like this, you're really doing yourself a favor and you're showing all these important things and that will set you apart.

[00:43:20]The interview really is about them,  we talked a little bit earlier today about how you make people feel and when you've read something that very few people will read that's great. I honestly I've been Relationship with the same woman for like over two years.

[00:43:34]And she doesn't even know what I do for a living,  very few people, she knows generally, but not really. And so it's like very few people like this person, whoever stuff you're reading their spouse probably doesn't even know their rotation papers or, so having an interest in this is very smart.

[00:43:49] It's very good. And I would really do that. Anytime you can show interest in something about a person that makes them feel good about themselves, think about how you would feel. If someone wrote, read your pay for one to talk to you about [00:44:00] it, you would feel very good about it. So I think that's a great question.

[00:44:03] And I think everyone probably appreciates that and I hope there's a lot of learning there too.  Let's see here. Okay. Here's a, I'm an incoming associate Who will be working virtually or any tips on how to be effective warnings or mistakes to avoid? Yeah. So the big thing about working virtually is one of the things that people do with me all the time that are working virtually is, there's just emails all the time.

[00:44:26] I'm getting emails from them all day. Like the best people they're always at their desk. When I call. So I know who's working and not working. One of the things that a lot of that I think is very smart to do and that many people. That I've seen very successful people do.

[00:44:41] And then I've suddenly subsequently had a lot of my employees do is sending me weekly reports. Now you're an associate. You don't necessarily need to do that. You write down your hours, but keeping a list of tasks to do for the upcoming week. And then and then being aware of things as they happen  [00:45:00] our in the office and so forth are always a good idea.

[00:45:02] Some of the mistakes that people make. Are not being reachable running around during the day and then being reachable on the, on your cell phone.  Keep in mind that every email that you send through your firm is likely to potentially be read at some point. I remember when I was at a firm once I walked into.

[00:45:21]A managing partner's office and he had a huge stack of paper, like this hot call and he was going through and reading people's emails and then putting them through a shredder. And and I thought that was very funny. And and he did too, actually, it's this is part of my job.  So you just need to be  very careful about what you write.

[00:45:40]You need to be in the office all the time. You should also be taking breaks. So you're effective you should be keeping your health up and exercising. But the biggest thing is always being available and working and and, being very careful about getting an advice on assignments and so forth and [00:46:00] and being available.

[00:46:00] Those are, those were the big things that I would say, and not writing anything, you shouldn't add emails being careful about gossiping, sending gossip via email to other associates just all those sorts of things. And and the other thing I would just say to a lot of associates and young attorneys on those calls is I remember a there's different legal tabloids out there that publish kind of negative news about law firms and so forth.

[00:46:24] And this one partner, that's a hiring partner in a major law firm and very successful said no one, that ever succeeds, practicing law spends their time reading this stuff. And he was right. And the thing is the more negative information you put into your head, the more it's going to screw with you and the more unhappy you're going to be.

[00:46:42]You need to try to surround yourself with positive people, positive information, and, remember like how far you've come and not find negativity in your situation. This is one of the things I would recommend. Okay. Let's see.

[00:46:56]Okay. Let's see here.

[00:46:58]This next question. [00:47:00] These are great questions by the way. And the more questions you guys have, I'll just keep answering them for people. These are very helpful. When do law school grades no longer matter? I have really bad grades from a really good school. I managed to make my way to a fancy litigation boutique.

[00:47:14] If I went and switched firms down the line with ask my transcript even four to five years out. No, I don't. So they will ask for your transcript many times but not all firms will certain LAR the thing is the larger law firms. They tend to have systems in place and all sorts of different methods for reviewing attorneys and and so they typically will ask for transcripts that a lot of times the smaller law firms won't law school grades, the most important part of law school grades is when you're applying to firms as a junior associate or out of law school, it's the only basis to have to compare you to other attorneys.

[00:47:48] When you get more senior, they can compare you based on all sorts of other things. They can compare you on your work experience type of work you've been doing and all sorts of things. So the grants are much less important and They don't really matter as much. [00:48:00]  And people have all sorts of excuses for reasons that may have had bad grades and honestly like people catch on to things in different ways.

[00:48:08] So it can take some people several years to catch on how to be a good attorney.  And the kind of things I teach in law school, or they can catch on, right when they're in law school, it doesn't matter. But once you get it, you can continually improve and some people stop improving.

[00:48:20] So I don't think it's that important when I talk to partners and so forth, they. They never talked about their grades. I don't think I've had a conversation about grades with partners moving firms in years. They just, it's not something that comes up.  In four to five years out that the big law firms that are big institutions and have large creating departments and human resource departments, they're always going to ask for them at some point.

[00:48:46]And the reason is because they our it's just, it's just the way they operate. But at the same time the smaller firms won't, and even the larger firms don't care as much. When you're out very far. And if you went to a great law school, that's helpful to it. [00:49:00]

[00:49:00]Okay. So let's see here more questions. These are great. Yeah. Just keep asking me anything you guys can think of, or you've been wondering about, and I'm happy to answer the question. Okay. I am in my last semester of law school, I'd have a clerkship. This state judge lined up. I just got a part-time law clerk position, a law firm.

[00:49:18] I'm excited about it. Like just standard associate, but she had mentioned as her goal, no defer option. How would choose the associate position? And affirm like this for the clerkship. There's a smart  yeah, it may be it depends. So if the clerkship of the state judges where you want to live, then that can be helpful, but keep in mind that, state judges come and go they're tip in most areas are not appointed for life.

[00:49:41] So that state judge could be different later on. If you if you prefer to stay in the firm over the clerkship that's fine too. If you feel like you get a job after the clerkship, so there's certain advantages doing both the benefit of a clerkship is that if you do a clerkship, you're going to get trained by a judge.

[00:49:59] And if [00:50:00] he's a good judge and  and has good work experience, then yeah. You'll get a lot of individualized attention. You might not get an, a law firm. The problem is with the state court clerkship is it's typically not as prestigious as a lot of federal district or appellate clerkships.

[00:50:15] And so it is harder to move into or a Supreme court State clerkship. It's Erin pellet clerkship. It's harder to move into large law firms with a state judge clerkship, but if you feel like the work would help you, then that's a good thing. The other thing is in terms of the the work you're doing as an associate that may ac