The Legal Profession Needs Advocates--Not Firm or School Snobs, Paper Pushers, or Money Grubbers

Transcript

[00:00:00] Today is one of my Favorite topics. And it's something that you may not understand and you may not even understand it right now, even after this presentation, because I think it's the sort of thing that takes people sometimes a long time before they really fully absorb it because it's a very.

[00:00:20] A powerful lesson, I believe. And in many respects, but one that's often missed. And I think it's often missed because so many people are wound up in their ego and making things about them. And they don't always think about how things appear to others. So I'm going to make the quick, I'm going to make the presentation and then After the presentation, we'll take a quick break and then I'll come back and answer as many questions as people have, whether it's about this presentation or really anything else that you have any questions about your career or anything and a welcome.

[00:00:52] This is, it looks like it will be the last presentation of the year. So yeah. Okay.  I've been placing attorneys now for over two [00:01:00] decades and I've also been hired attorneys for over two decades. And I've worked as an attorney for over two decades. And I've watched, countless attorneys fail many succeed, and I believe that in my experience, there's the one kind of characteristic that attorneys have that makes them successful.

[00:01:19] And their ability to have this characteristic is something that  is extremely important. And and honestly, very few attorneys have. And,  you've probably seen know. And when you see articles about famous attorneys or you read about attorneys that have become extremely wealthy or or done very well this, they almost all universally have this characteristic.

[00:01:41] And if you have this character. And and I even in business this is an important characteristic and an important characteristic in business. It's an important characteristic and pretty much any pursuit where you're working for other people and everyone by the way, is working for other people.

[00:01:58]Even if you're a [00:02:00] president you're working for other people, because they're the ones who put you in office, but at the same time I rarely see people fail. Who've  you know who've done this. If they do fail this failure rarely lasts very long.   I'm going to tell you a couple personal stories today and I and they are useful from the standpoint that they illustrate this story and, and hopefully you'll understand You know what this characteristic is.

[00:02:23]Either in this first store or in other ones I tell, but when I was about 10 years old, I my stepfather was, had been dying of cancer for at least a couple of years. And, it was the kind of thing where, first they found the cancer is. No, I dunno, it was bladder.

[00:02:38] And then they found it in other organs and and they would do, they would remove parts of his body, then they would do chemotherapy. And and so as all this cancer progressed and I've seen this happen to people multiple times when you probably have to things just continue going downhill and people get, okay.

[00:02:56] Chemotherapy and then it will come back and. That's a [00:03:00] very sad disease that hurts. And many times it gets to the point where the doctors just don't really have any answers. They can't say that they there's, they don't tell people really that there, that it's over. They will just stop giving them hope and things that they can do.

[00:03:19] And. And when he reached that point which was pretty close to the end he was still not in the hospital. My parents my mother and her stepfather, then that became that the doctors didn't know what they were talking about. Cause of course he was left and they needed to find a better doctor and so forth, which a lot of people do.

[00:03:38] And they kept going to doctors and getting the same answer over and over again. And until they got an answer from a doctor that they liked who actually didn't even have his own medical clinic, he was working out of his house and he told them that the cancer was curable. And  one afternoon.

[00:03:56]They got together a bunch of money and they didn't have a lot [00:04:00] of money. And and I came with them and we drove to neighborhood outside of where we were,  outside of Yeah, I think it was in Mount Clemens or something. And we were living in another suburb outside Detroit, but it was a rural type area where we visited.

[00:04:14] And we went to see a doctor and the doctor had apparently developed this solution that will cure cancer. And he had it in his frigerator and it was some concoction and he had all these test tubes and stuff all around his house and they gave him several thousand dollars of paper bags and took home this liquid and Mason jars basically for him to drink for the next few weeks.

[00:04:37] And he did, and he continued to get sicker and eventually he was too sick and he couldn't get out of the bed. And then he had to be taken to the house. And over the next few weeks evenly, when he was in the hospital dying and hardly able to speak they still continue looking for solutions.

[00:04:54] And so when they realized that science couldn't help them then they decided to  they found out [00:05:00] about some Catholic religious group, I believe that would lease them for 12 hours, a sliver of the cross, apparently that Jesus died on and they're larger than a toothpick, a shard of a toothpick, and he could sleep with him, monitor something like that.

[00:05:15] I don't know. It's just very sad when they're taking all their money at the end. And despite all of this he ended up dying a few weeks later. And at the age of 10 years old, I knew none of this made sense, but if you think about it, what were, what was that doctor offering that they paid and what was what was the religious group offering?

[00:05:34]They paid for, and and this of course is an example of someone getting taken advantage of others and it shows you  how. Important this rule is it's something that people cling to right up until they die.  So I've been in a lot of desperate situations myself and and rather than telling about someone else's, I'll just tell you about one of mine and not too long ago.

[00:05:59][00:06:00] I had hired an expert, an account to be an expert witness for me in in a divorce case. And I hired him because I'd known him for several years and he seemed very interested in me and and in helping me, he would send me  books and articles and call and check in on me and stuff.

[00:06:17] And it just seemed very strange. And that he, he seems so nice. And so I was, wow, this guy's really nice. Maybe I'll have him help me. And he told me that for $45,000, he'd represent me for the duration of this case and do everything I needed. And basically would just look at my books and records and then go to a couple of hearings and that was it maybe writing a report or something and whatever that was qualifications were.

[00:06:41] And I trusted him. So I gave him $45,000 and and then a few weeks later I called him and told him I had a hearing coming up and needed him to attend. And he literally hadn't really done any work yet. And so I figured this is where I get the money. And when I asked him to attend his whole kind of demeanor and attitude change, she became [00:07:00] from someone that had been very pleasant and nice and helpful and interested in me to someone who was too busy to talk to me.

[00:07:07]His whole tone had changed. He was just, wasn't a nice person anymore. It's very strange. And he said he would be available for an hour. When I needed him, but that was it. And I told them there was an all day hearing. It was a mediation or something he needed to be there for it. And and this, what NIS said, what did I pay all this money for?

[00:07:23] This is what I paid you for. And to my astonishment he then screamed F you at me, slammed down the phone. And then the next day got me a letter that said his contract. He's not an attorney obviously, and you can't just do this to someone, but said he could withdraw it at any time. If I was uncooperative and I wrote wasn't uncooperative, he was uncooperative.

[00:07:43] But and then he refuse to refund my money, which is very strange. And found someone else to help me. And and then a few months later I. Met with him and told him I would Sue him if he didn't refund my money. And he basically, I told them that I hired [00:08:00] him because he seemed like he was very interested in me in the work.

[00:08:02] And he'd been very solicitous trying to get the work and seemed interested in the subject matter. And and and in response he said something, I just couldn't believe. He said, it's all an act. All I care about is money at this point in my career. And then he tried to negotiate how much money I would pay him back.

[00:08:19] And if that sounds unusual, a lot of people are like that. They're not doing things because they really want to help other people. They're doing things because they're trying to get something for themselves. And then he told me that the time suing him, hiring lawyers, but cost me money and time, and I should accept the low ball settlement offer.

[00:08:37] And then he told me over this conversation that you know, and I learned later, they'd done this thing to lots of people and he'd been threatened and so he'd been threatened for doing something somewhere to so many people that he, it actually for him was worth more money to have.

[00:08:54]A better, it was worth, him to have a security guard parked in front of his house each night, for a minimum wage to [00:09:00] watch to make sure that no one came to get him. So he was making more money, ripping people off with this kind of thing than doing that. And he had cameras all over his property and and and this certainly it was not good.

[00:09:12] So he understood the rule.  And then, I've also been past hired in-house attorneys and not too long ago, I hired one and businesses always have ongoing legal issues where they need an in house attorneys and and the job of in-house attorneys to understand the company's position and always to defendant.

[00:09:28] And and so this attorney wasn't here for more than a few weeks, but yeah. During this time here of every assignment he got, he figured out how to aggressively argue against the company's position, regardless of what it was, and constructed a very complex arguments against whatever we were trying to do.

[00:09:48]That was all legal stuff and it was, so it was as if we'd hired an opposing counsel to work inside of our company, not the other way around. And and this person didn't understand them. And he was angry. So [00:10:00] you may wonder what all of this has to do with a role.

[00:10:02] And I'm about ready to tell you because it's very important. So most attorneys don't understand what their clients. Other attorneys inside their law firm including people that are mentoring people  that are mentoring them and other seek from them and really won. And this is, honestly, probably the most basic requirement of being an attorney.

[00:10:24]And, but it's not something that's really taught in law school to me. They talk around the fact, but it's never really taught in law schools and.  This characteristic is glorified in movies and books about the best attorneys it's. And it's so imperative yet.  It's the number one thing that really holds attorneys and others on the legal market back.

[00:10:44] And. If you don't have this characteristic, it can destroy your life in a career. And if you don't, it can destroy law firms too. I've seen a lot of law firms fail because they lack this characteristic. And and it's just when it's [00:11:00] there great things happen to law firms and great things happen to attorneys, but when it's not.

[00:11:05]They don't. And and that's one of the reasons I think that it's important to really understand.  And you can see this kind of example in law firms that don't do well. And the attorneys there that don't do well. And years ago, I hired a law firm and out of state to represent me in a really pretty dumb case where I was going after a former employee became a competitor and started, posting all sorts of stuff on the internet, under a false name, to try to hurt the company and so forth.

[00:11:35] And The law firm that I hired was these attorneys that had incredible degrees. From the best law schools and, they were at the very top of their class of these law schools. And it was a tiny firm and it didn't have really any large clients and it didn't seem to be that successful.

[00:11:48] And I didn't understand while its clients were small and why the firm wasn't more successful because it was it was a good size firm. It was a, the attorneys there had really good backgrounds and. But I remember [00:12:00] when I spoke with the attorneys by phone, they were always very dry and,  they would pare back the law.

[00:12:05]They wouldn't really take sides. They just would say what this is and what this says. And and they had an important appeal. They were arguing before the court of appeals. And  and I flew down and another attorney that was working for me to meet with them and. When I got there, they just seem very depressed.

[00:12:23]One of the attorneys, it was talking about his personal problems for a while and and very down and. No, the attorneys seem very kind of low energy. And and then when he got up to argue my appeal, my attorney only argued for about six out of the 20 minutes he had and his collar was folded up and in the back, like by mistake.

[00:12:42] And he just didn't seem organized and and the attorney and the other side was used all this time, arguing for real. And I was very persuasive as well. After the lunch we went out for after the oral argument went out for lunch and they the firm attorneys were really just complaining about their clients and [00:13:00] why their clients were all wrong.

[00:13:01] And and it just, it didn't leave a great taste in my mouth. And then, over the next few years I watched this firm that hired here. And it kept moving into smaller and smaller offices. And and I realized that this firm was failing because they also lack this one thing. And, and just, sometimes there's lessons and things like you can life and career.

[00:13:24] Sometimes you can. One thing. One thing you're doing wrong, or one issue that you have, it keeps coming up over and over again, that creates problems. And and this particular characteristic is miss glossed over and so forth and prevents a lot of attorneys from succeeding. And honestly, I think it's more important than where you went to school and where you're working now.

[00:13:46] And And, attorneys are just this characteristic and it's very strange because your whole job is about this characteristic. And it comes through in interviews whether or not you have a comes through in interviews and attorneys that have this in interviews are [00:14:00] hired.

[00:14:00] And I interview attorneys all the time and Both to hire attorneys and, obviously to place them. And when someone like me is looking for an attorney there always they're generally looking for someone because they need help with something and or some something and,  and not too long ago, I interviewed a position and attorney for a position within my companies.

[00:14:18] And I asked her what she knew about the company and she said she had heard of it. And then I asked her about a longterm. Chuck toes. And she said things that had nothing to do with the job she was being interviewed. And then she asked questions about salary and similar matters and she didn't get the job because obviously that person then you'll see why in a minute didn't have the characteristic.

[00:14:38] And I just really could not understand how she could possibly represent me knowing nothing about what I do, but you see this all the time. And then last week I spoke with one of our recruiters. I was talking to me about a candidate of hers who is having a difficult time getting a job.

[00:14:55] And she's with a major law firm and trying to move back to the city where she was [00:15:00] from. And in her interview, she's always asked her if she has any questions. And then her response to those two went fast is always. Will the firm pay relocation expenses where they give her a bar site, man, where appropriate or boners, things like that.

[00:15:13] And she keeps doing that and interviews, and then not getting callbacks and offers. So this is another example of an attorney that doesn't understand the role and and that's way of approaching interviews is very harmful and. Later in the week I spoke with an attorney looking for a law firm position and she was very senior not very senior, but senior meaning, 10 plus years of experience.

[00:15:36] And she had no business, but she was in a practice area where she was employable and she talked about how she knew there's a lot of demand for people with her background. And and she said that she'd be happy to leave her law firm because she been reading some bad news about the law from online.

[00:15:52] And thought maybe she should move just because she'd heard some rumors about our own law firm.  She said she wanted a part-time position hours work reduced [00:16:00] hours. She didn't really like her job or care about what she was doing, her clients or, where she worked and she never make partner law firm.

[00:16:06]And honestly, I don't think this person will ever make part anywhere. And, so this is an example of someone that doesn't understand the role. And another example, people don't understand the role is, all week I look at the resumes of attorneys who are not able to get jobs. And a lot of times they'll let it at the resumes with stuff they believe is important.

[00:16:25]They'll you know, write a bunch of stuff about their political affiliation and I don't care what your political affiliation is. If you put that on there that's, you're just taking sides and not everybody in a law firm is going to be on your side. They're right. Stuff about their sexual orientation.

[00:16:40] There's nothing wrong with that. When, w when you do anything about like sexual orientation, religious beliefs, or other things that are important to you, that just attracts from the message that, you're there to To, to work and and really to put that, that these beliefs and so forth [00:17:00] behind your clients, not necessarily a lot cloud them, because people, have different opinions about different religions and people have different opinions about different people have different, political affiliations and so forth.

[00:17:12] And so it's just a good idea to leave all that out. And, the other thing I see, that's very interesting as I see a lot of attorneys That are working in major law firms and and all their experience that they list they is, if it's the only thing that matters.

[00:17:25] They talk all about all this pro bono work they've done. And sometimes they lead with a pro bono work and then they talk a little bit about the actual work that they did because they believe that's more important. And these attorneys do not understand the role and and you just need to be you need to understand where all this is coming from, because if your resume is more about taking sides and the political or whatever and it's more about things that don't involve work that your firm's trying to do.

[00:17:54] And then there's probably something wrong. So inside the firms there's also [00:18:00] stuff that goes on. That's important for you to understand. And and this is the same role play now because there's partners inside firms that want to grow the firm. They want to bring on more partners with more business.

[00:18:09] They want to expand into new markets and do all sorts of things. And. There's a lot of partners that don't want this to happen because they feel that it's of threaten them. A lot of times it will happen. There's a firm gets get successful and then all sorts of kind of bureaucrats will appear and and do different things and and suck up money and not bring it work.

[00:18:28] And so they may not want the firm to grow because it'll make them look bad. And so they may undermine those in authority trying to grow the firm. And there's always people that are trying to expand firms and trying to hold the back. And it works this way in every law firm, perfect people that understand this rule and those that don't.

[00:18:46]And in a law firm, many people believe that the partnerships are, many people in the public and associates and others believe that. Partners cooperate, but honestly, it's more of a cat fight than anything. It's people are trying to one up each other and credit for [00:19:00] client origination compensation and so forth.

[00:19:02] And mini law firm partners feel that they're very much alone and they feel like that no one's supporting them. And and an often feels very powerless for partners. And many of the most successful partners are take a counterintuitive attitude towards business and sharing and so forth.

[00:19:19] And they're not necessarily just out for themselves.  And all this, by the way, there's a lot of information to take in. And and it may not seem like it's all related, but I'm telling you these stories because I want you to understand the point of where I'm coming from.

[00:19:33] And at BCG, like the, this company has been successful for a long time. And and and I've seen lots of people succeed at this job in terms of working with attorneys, looking for jobs, and I've seen others that haven't done as well. And and if you're good at this job, you can actually change the lives for people's careers and things will happen to them.

[00:19:52] That won't happen without your involvement. And, the best recruiters understand how to bring out the best in candidates and they understand how to [00:20:00] show the sow offer. And they understand that, you need to be. Behind people and you need to knock on a lot of doors and be persistent.

[00:20:07] And they understand that, everyone is an individual and needs to be represented and push to improve. And they needed to understand that  they can make a difference in people's lives. So they care about their work and they work hard. And and our core value is to get attorneys jobs.

[00:20:21] And, I it's interesting because, and this is just an example of this rule playing out, but a couple of weeks ago, we had a recruiter that made three placements in one week, and which is not unusual for our recruiters, but. What was interesting was how the recruiter made these placements.

[00:20:36] She had three different candidates that all been rejected by the firms when our recruiter initially approached the firms. And instead of taking no for an answer, she kept following up with the firms and date a couple of months later. And then Three firms or some of the firms said, yes, they w would be interested in interviewing the candidate now, even though they hadn't initially, and they rejected them.

[00:20:57] And the candidates went in interviewed and got jobs. [00:21:00] And, so this particular recruiter is, obviously good academic background and so forth, went to Harvard law school. And he used to practice civil rights law and. Now she spends a lot of time interviewing and understanding our candidates, bringing out the best in them.

[00:21:13] And but what's remarkable. Is that what she's did? And is that, she went and she continued to try to place people, even when they initially were not marketable. And and so this particular characteristic, just again it's something that you can see in the way this woman plays someone because she was able to place people that, you know, that by.

[00:21:39] Being persistent and following up and believing in them that wouldn't have gotten jobs on their own. And it made a big difference and people, as I've said earlier, use this characteristic and a lot of different ways. And  in Detroit, if you live in the suburbs especially in gross point, which is right next to Detroit, it's very common for people to go to either Windsor or [00:22:00] Detroit.

[00:22:00] And there's always there used to be how to vote it's sense of tournament, the casinos. But people would go, they would have bars on them and so forth and people would get drinks and meet up. And you'd always see people you went to school with and it was fun. And and. At the time this is how old I am.

[00:22:17] There was a crack epidemic in Detroit. And when you would get out of your car to walk into one of these boats or bars and so forth, there would always be crack addicts that would approach you. And there was a class of crack addicts that was very smart. They would be clean. Cut. They would be well-dressed.

[00:22:32] They would they would be well-spoken and and they would they would want you to talk to them and they would engage you instead of just asking you for money, they would engage you and they would tell you stories. And and then the stories would always lead with, if you just gave them some money, everything would be fine.

[00:22:47] And and so one evening I invited one of these crack addicts into my car with a friend of mine to talk to them. Cause I don't, it was cold or rain or something. And eventually after listening to a story for awhile, I told them I'd take them to a store and buy [00:23:00] us food and drove into a store.

[00:23:01] And I purchased him a bunch of groceries and yeah. And then, and as I gave him this food, he, he started screaming. So we got in the car and drove away and threw a sandwich at the car cause he just wanted money. And and but what they were doing is they were these crack addicts were basically telling me whatever they thought I wanted to hear.

[00:23:18]They didn't want food. They dressed up well because it worked, they spun stories about why they needed my help today. And if you look beneath all that, they're really Was no substance. They were just trying to get drugs. But it was very convincing and it just like the accountant was convinced even just a lot of the doctors were convincing  they appear to tell you what you wanted and.

[00:23:40]I've, I look, in most businesses, there's a lot of people that aren't really genuinely interested in what they're doing and recruiting. There's a lot of people that aren't generally interested in getting people jobs and bringing out the best in others or researching things in an aggressive manner, following up and doing what it takes to succeed.

[00:23:58] Instead, [00:24:00] a lot of people are very interested in just cutting corners. And one of the interesting events that happened to me was about six months after starting a BCG, I was in a Greek restaurant with my father and wife at the time. And I was very proud of attorneys. I had gotten jobs and I was telling him all about it.

[00:24:18] And and I was very happy and and then my dad just interrupt and said, this is all complete bullshit. All anyone cares about is making money. I don't know. Five-year excited about this from one bet. And so what he was saying is all I cared about was making money.

[00:24:33] And I was very upset about that for a long time or at least a couple of days. And I felt a complete disconnect and and I and I understood that this particular belief that he had this inability to get behind other people and belief that everybody was out for themselves and so forth really was a cause of w.

[00:24:51] That's something that I didn't respect and probably held him back. And I honestly never saw him as the same person again. So if you're [00:25:00] sick and you go to a doctor you expect the doctor to listen to what is wrong, develop solutions. You would want the doctor. You, you're not gonna want the doctor saying you don't need medical care.

[00:25:09] You want help. And and so there's a lot of people out there that won't listen to us and won't take our side. Years ago, I would just quick story. I went to a local medical clinic and there was a doctor who is from a very conservative, Midwestern state. And I was one of her first patients when she arrived and I was tired and had an, a large lymph node, which I guess it can be a lot of things, but she decided that she was in California and and in LA in the Los Angeles area, and everybody must tie either be an IV drug user or or  have sexually transmitted diseases.

[00:25:44] So she tested me for drugs and she tested me or sexually transmitted diseases and and and looked at me very suspiciously. This has obviously some sort of drug induced thing. I explain it. I don't even drink. And I've been married for a decade and have three children and she didn't want to believe it.

[00:26:00] [00:25:59] And and the seemed eventually got worse and I ended up hospitalized and it was just a virus. It was nothing to do with drugs or sex. And and all the test results. She initially run on my blood had showed that showing that the virus is there, but for whatever reason, she just glossed right over and didn't even see it.

[00:26:17] I guess you can tell with elevated such and such another doctor said, and it was one of the first things that doctors learned in medical school, but. Instead of interesting being neutral, helping me what she was doing, what she was reaching conclusions that suited her and the way she wanted to see the world.

[00:26:33] And it was very interesting. And so our beliefs about things often will affect how we see the world and our beliefs and our focus on ourselves who often affect how we see the world. And many times couples will go to therapy, but we're separating rarely works. What's going on typically is one couple wants the therapist, take their side and And they're rarely going to do that.

[00:26:56] It's not their job. They want the therapist to take their side and [00:27:00] fix the other person. And you, you just can't do that. You can't have a therapist take your side and something like that. You can have your own therapist, but you can't have this therapist take your side. If someone breaks into your house and injures you and steals your possessions you're going to call the police and you're going to want them to help you and you're going to want them to believe in you.

[00:27:18] And that's going to help you. And it's, and that's something that you need you need to be believed by the place. And it's just very important. And I've had instances where the police haven't believed me. I had someone crashed into my car and then And then the police didn't believe that happened.

[00:27:35] And then anyway and this isn't really a story that I probably need to tell, but I had a kid from Pepperdine down the street crashed into my car. He was drag racing at 2:00 AM. He wasn't drunk or anything. He crashed into my car. The police came, they took a report. I was sleeping and the next morning I got up, I called the place and they have these kinds of people that are volunteer patrols.

[00:27:57]Drive around Malibu. I don't know. I bet they [00:28:00] people want to do this and not be paid. And and I told them one of the volunteers, this sky in my car and he said, it's impossible that he could have the bumpers don't line up. And then the other car was in the tree. And so I, are on a Hill, crashed and Anyway, the police officer didn't want to listen to logic.

[00:28:17] And a few minutes into this, several police officers showed up the real police and observed the argument. And then also the guy who hit the cars the previous morning showed up and And it admitted that he hit my car. And then they started making fun of this volunteer placement. And after that this volunteer policeman became on a vendetta against me and was trying to tow my cars and writing me tickets all the time and even pulling me over for stuff.

[00:28:43] And it was just. Over and over again. There were problems with him and the reason there's problems is because I had I, because of, I'm basically, made fun of him in front of people and made them look bad.  And he continues to create problems.

[00:28:56]He's even pulled me over once and, they couldn't write [00:29:00] tickets. And he's against me. Anytime you've been fired from a job and I've certainly been fired it's because the employer has perceived me as being antagonistic to their interest. And again, this is goes along with this characteristic.

[00:29:12] I'm talking about the first time I was fired. I was fired for basically making prank phone calls when when I was supposed to be calling up for a Fireman's fund or something, or know, I don't remember what it was or helping raise money for the place.

[00:29:27] And I used to do this every evening. And and then I had some friends of mine over and they asked me what I did and I showed them. And and then we started making, doing prank phone calls using the script. And and I got in trouble for that. Lost the job because he employed in your arms against them.

[00:29:43]I got fired when I was a valet for a talking behind my bosses back. When I was 18 I got higher fired for acting like I was more important than the people that I was working for as a garbage man,  then making them feel bad about badly about themselves.   [00:30:00] Came across as not being on the side of the employer.

[00:30:02]After law school, I spent a year clerking for a federal district judge and I spent my time the majority of people, he was very conservative and Republican and the majority of people in the courthouse were very liberal. And Democrats, and because of the exception of my cohort, the only other people I can hang out with, I spend a lot of time with them.

[00:30:20] And and he didn't like that. And and I heard all sorts of negative things about him and I don't think he liked that. And and the thing is this the one who hired me? So he's the one that was paying me, someone who was reviewing my work. He's the one who would give me recommendations.

[00:30:35] He was the most influential person in the courthouse and I was spending my time, but the wrong people and I didn't have his back, and this is something he was entitled to and deserved. And I hope you're starting to see what the lesson here is. My Coke clerk who ended up doing very well in the legal profession.

[00:30:51] Played the game she needed to play. She doesn't associate with the people who didn't support the judge. She moved to a neighborhood close to him and as a result he supported her.  [00:31:00] Did the opposite of this judge. I became a liability because I was spending my time with people.

[00:31:05] He knew didn't like him and and did more and more of that. And I started listening to their arguments and. When he hired me, he thought I would be on his side.  Think about when and to make a long story short. I didn't get fired, but I certainly would have been, had I stuck around and I was very close, probably minutes from getting fired when I quit.

[00:31:23] So I did the right thing by quitting, but at the same time and just because of this mistake, so think about the people that aren't on your side and that are against you and don't and then think about the people that are on your side and that are, to support you and are for you.

[00:31:39] And if you think about what does a politician do? A politician tells people that they're on their side. People come to power by as in politics, by telling certain people that they're going to be on their side.  They'll say too.  The working class I'm on your side, or they'll say two people from minority groups are on your side.

[00:31:57] I'll say to people from the dominant group, they're [00:32:00] know on your side. And what are politicians, social movements, protests, and others. Representative people that we want on our side. People join unions because they want someone on their side. They support political parties because they want someone on their side, people join religions because they want to be, have people on their side that support them.

[00:32:17] People join support groups because they want people on their side. They moved to people. They. They moved to different areas of the country or where they're from are closer to their family because they want people on their side. They live in the small towns where they grew up because they want to be, close to their families and people on their side.

[00:32:32]People protest against the police because they feel the law's not on their side and people. What others on their side. And if you think about it, what is going on in the country or what is always been going on? And what's,  the idea is people want others on their side? The doctor that my mother and stepfather hired was a miracle cancer care was out for himself, but my parents believed that he was on their side.

[00:32:54] And they ended up hiring him because of that my mother paid someone for [00:33:00] what was supposedly a piece of the cross Jesus died on. She was trying to get supernatural forces on her side and his side. We're not hiring an accountant to help them hook legal case. He made me believe in me.

[00:33:10] He made me believe he was on my side, but he really wasn't. He was on his own side. But I wanted to believe he was on my side. When I hired an attorney to represent the company's interests, instead of being on the company side, he was actually against the company and angry that he'd been rejected from BCG when you tried to work with us for some reason.

[00:33:27]And and I found out later that he'd been rebuffed repeatedly when you tried to work here, but I, or tried to, work with us, but I never realized that at the time. So we want people on our side the law firm and hired to represent me in the case against the former employee who became a competitor was not on my side.

[00:33:46] Huh. Instead of making arguments against me they just didn't have passion for much anything. And couldn't be on anyone's side. The average recruiter is often like the crack addict. They'll say whatever they want to say to make easy money, but that's about it that you can tell the right [00:34:00] things.

[00:34:00]They can tell you things, but they may not really be on your side. They're on their own side. They don't care about you or have your back. And they'll do whatever it takes to help themselves and not you. Most attorneys and you may be part of this group. And most attorneys actually are, the majority of them are not, 90%, but over 50 many times they make the mistake of not realizing what really matters to their employer.

[00:34:23] And they, what really matters is they want to feel like you're on their side and yeah. They want to feel like you have the back and you're going to be hired if you do that. And if you don't, you won't be. And it's as simple as that the conservative judge hired me because he thought I was conservative and have his back.

[00:34:38]I went to law school in Virginia, which at the time was a very kind of a Republican state. I was a member of some organizations that suggested that I might be. Conservative like him. And and so he hired me because of that. He thought I would be on the side an attorney that goes into interviews and talks about the things that they want, which are like relocation, expenses, [00:35:00] bonuses, certain salaries, and so forth is not likely to get the job because they look too out for themselves.

[00:35:05]Like someone who will have the employers back and that's simply not right. And many attorneys inside of law firms never get business and they never find longterm success practicing law because they never understand the how important it is to be seen as looking out for others.

[00:35:21] Clients want to hire people that they see the belief have their back. And and not people that are out just for themselves and clients will hire those sorts of people. Those are the kinds of attorneys they hire. They're also the attorneys that don't get clients typically are able to get behind the cause of it.

[00:35:37] Yeah. Clients and many times they are an advanced by their own law firms because. They listened to negative rumors, excuse me, and take the side of employers or people that are against their law firm. And then they fight for every dollar in their law firms. And and don't share money.

[00:35:54] We know with the firms that  they could,  they just want to they're completely out for themselves. We're not on the law firm [00:36:00] side. They're only on their own side and. Often attorneys seem opposed to their clients and others that they should be advocating for. You're hired as an attorney to be an advocate you're not hired to be your own advocate.

[00:36:11] You're hired actually to be an advocate for others. And the better you do that, the better  you're going to do, and you simply can't succeed. If you don't look like you're on the side of your employer partners and other people that you're working for.  I think that a lot of young attorneys, especially and it's always been this way by the way.

[00:36:27] It's not like it is now.  But it's always been this way to some extent, but a lot of attorneys, because the educational system is the way it is. And the people that, do most teaching or the way they are many times w what gets you ahead, or believing in a higher causes than just making money.

[00:36:45] And that's a good thing that schools teach that. But a lot of times, People will coming out of school will come out of school. Thinking that I want to spend a lot of time working in a law firm. Law firms are bad. Pro bono work is good and representing private clients is bad. And and then [00:37:00] therefore, they need to play devil's advocate and so forth.

[00:37:02] And and it doesn't do you any good? You should be taking the size of the people that are paying you and not. Necessarily other sides and you need to believe in what you're doing and the people that you're working for. It's extremely important. And many times attorneys are hired because they come across to the people that are interviewing them is that it would have their back.

[00:37:21]When someone's interviewing you, if you connect with them the best way to connect with them is to make them think that, if you hire them, They will cooperate with you and they will make use to help you succeed. And that's really the rule.

[00:37:35] And if you don't come across that way then they won't, and that's just how it works, but people don't understand that. I speak with attorneys all the time. And many times most of the time, I always ask where they grew up. I ask about whether or not they have brothers and sisters.

[00:37:50] I ask about the last time I took a vacation and I tried to get them to open up person because I want to understand them. And and a lot of people act very cold. When I asked this [00:38:00] information and they think there's something wrong with me for asking that I think the most important thing is that right.

[00:38:05] I went to school or,  something along those lines and not this, but honestly, nothing could be more critical than this. The more you show people your life and can be trusted and support them and are willing to be vulnerable. The more people are going to like and trust you. And everybody wants to have people around them that they feel understand them, that they understand that.

[00:38:25] And as well, and people need that. When I represent law firms and attorneys, I've always tried, never to give bad news. Always want to tell an attorney things in their background but law firms are. Unlikely to appreciate if I do that, if I tell my attorney that those cook with the turnout and believe I'm not on their side and not want to work with me they won't like that.

[00:38:46]I can tell them how to overcome limitations. But my role is not to point out those limitations. Many times people do not like people think about the people that say negative things to you. What do you do? Oh, you assume that they don't have your back. And and it's the same thing [00:39:00] with law firms.

[00:39:00] If I tell a law firm a bunch of negative stuff about them, they're not going to like me either. And so I don't they want someone to believe Rosa solutions, not someone who tells them about obstacles. People want solutions, not obstacles pointed out. And one of the things that I've always noticed is law firms and employers.

[00:39:19] Very often just completely avoid. Hiring attorneys that have been unemployed for a long time. And for a very long time, I thought this was unfair and I didn't understand it. And in, in certain markets like New York city, if you're unemployed the best firms are most firms.

[00:39:33]The pay market salaries. It's almost impossible to get a job with them. It just says too much negative about you and I don't know about, During pandemics and so forth, it's a little bit different,  had many theories about why being an employee was considered such a bad thing for a long time because I didn't,  think it was fair, really what it is this, it shows you can advance your case and how can you if the longer you're on employed, it shows, how can you be an excellent attorney represent other's interests.

[00:39:58] If you cannot represent [00:40:00] yourself and even get a job. And that's one of the things or, people do not let people go also that they see as their advocate when they're working for them. And that's an important thing as well. So the big advice is you need to be an advocate. You need to convince recruiters, employers, and others of your value, and you can't do this.

[00:40:17] If he can't do this, for yourself employers, you can't expect them players can't, you cannot expect you to do this for clients that are paying,  if you were kicked out of a law firm, like I was, basically fired from a clerkship it was because I wasn't seen as an advocate of the judge here when I was fired from it as a valet, I wasn't seen as an advocate of the.

[00:40:36] Person that had hired me. I was fired from the job of making calls for the police. It was fired because I wasn't seen as an advocate law firms and all employers, expel people that don't do not see them as advocates. And it's the same thing. With clients to get business you need to be seen as the best potential advocate for that client in the market.

[00:40:56] They want to believe that you believe in them, if you need to be seen as [00:41:00] the best advocate for them. And that's what clients care about. They want to know who's going to help me get most excited about my issue and helped me the most. Who's going to believe in me and be my advocate. And that's the kind of person that they want to hire.

[00:41:12] They want to hire the person that's going to be their advocate. That's what they need, that our clients need that. And the more you look like an advocate at someone that's out for them and not yourself. The better off, you're going to be the same thing with all your employers. And I honestly, this is the lesson today.

[00:41:29]This is something that I've told a lot of stories because I want sometimes that's the best way to communicate information. But people want to hire advocates. People want to hire people that they believe in and believe in you. And the best attorneys, get ahead because they're advocates, this is all it takes.

[00:41:49] You don't have to go to the best law school. You don't have to work in the best firm. You can, if you're a good advocate and you really are seen as an advocate, you can do exceptionally well. If you really are [00:42:00] an advocate.  Here are a couple of prints. I want you to take away from this and then we'll take questions after a short break, but the first thing is law firms hire attorneys because they think they're going to look like good advocates.

[00:42:12]They believe that The advocate means that there'll be a hard worker and smart but also that they're going to get behind whoever they're working for, whether it's a client the firm or the attorney you're working for, you're going to be an advocate for someone else's interest, not your own and not everyone can do this.

[00:42:28]It's the most basic requirement of being an attorney. It's what the attorney that I hired to work inside of our company did poorly. It's what lot of people don't do well. Instead of worrying about being an advocate, they do things like they worry about money. Many times people worry about how others perceive them.

[00:42:42]Whether or not they're doing enough pro bono or working on something political crap, politically, correct rumors about their firm. The politics within the firm whether or not they believe the clients are accepted socially acceptable and more, this is the kind of stuff that a lot of times people worry about.

[00:42:58] And that's the wrong stuff. If a law [00:43:00] firm hires you, they want to believe you're also going to represent their interests. They want to think that you're going to care about them. They want to think, there's going to be some sort of tribal connection, tribal connections or things like schools Appearance.

[00:43:12]Sometimes, you don't need to put this on your resume, things that show that they can trust you. There's a lot of law firms that are composed primarily of people of different religions  people don't advertise all the time, their religion on their resume, but they figure it out and they just, they're looking for things that show that they can trust you.

[00:43:28]They want to feel that. You're going to share their perspective and the way they see things. And anything that shows you're not someone that can be trusted will cause you not to get hired. The firm knows what it's doing. Law firms try to keep people out that don't necessarily support them.

[00:43:45] And that's just how it works. And think about what you would want, if you were hiring someone, if you were hiring someone to work in your house would you want to hire someone. And let's say you were let's just hypothetically say you were like a very [00:44:00] conservative Christian, you didn't believe in drinking and sex before marriage and all that sort of thing.

[00:44:05] Would you hire someone with a bunch of tattoos who smoked and talked about how they'd like to go drinking every weekend to work in your house? You wouldn't now that's maybe a little bit different, but let's say you were very conservative or very liberal person that extremely liberal and you believed in  don't know, whatever you believed in.

[00:44:25] Would you want to hire someone that was very conservative to work in your house to take care of your cats? You probably wouldn't. So you just need to think about you want people that are going to get behind you and see the world and your in your way. And it's important. Clients also like attorneys and hire them because they think they're going to be good advocates.

[00:44:41] If you, if if client believes you're gonna look like a good advocate then they're gonna want you they're gonna, they're going to believe that if you can defend them and look out for them, Then then you're a good person. And if you can't, they're not going to want to hire you.

[00:44:55] They don't want to hire you just because you went to a good school or you work at a good firm. That's insane. [00:45:00] They want to hire people that are going to get behind them. And and if they believe that you're passionate about them, then they're going to hire you. I remember once I was in a mediation and I asked the mediator who was a former judge about one of the best attorneys in Los Angeles and his practice here.

[00:45:14]And the judge told me that when the attorney takes a case, he gets himself into a white, hot frenzy about the reasons his clients, even if he's not. And and regardless of what the issue is, and he just always believes the other side is wrong. And and and he's the only attorney the judge said, he knows it does this.

[00:45:32] And because the frenzy, this guy gets into he, he wins. The other side is just plowed over by judges or plowed over by it. It's more work than he can handle. And it works this kind of attorneys rare. He believes in them and he's really their advocate. It's a huge damage. And a lot of attorneys expect business to come to them and they just believe that having a good pedigree is all.

[00:45:51] But think about the attorney that gets into a white hot frenzy. Isn't that the kind of person you'd want, having your back when, wouldn't you be excited, [00:46:00] would that person, and you just, you can't fake believing in your clients. You can't fake being an advocate for your clients.

[00:46:06] You can't. Fake any of that. The name of the game really is being an advocate and fully supporting those who give you business. The thing is that more senior attorneys will advance  attorneys, junior attorneys, or advocates first to senior attorneys, meaning the people you're working for it.

[00:46:21] They need to have, it gets to in order to become a law firm and partner, most law firms, you need someone to sponsor you and step out and say why you should be a partner. And a full-on partner sponsors an attorney. They typically do so because they feel that person is just completely has their back and is really an advocate for them.

[00:46:37] And and what does that mean? That means that they're going to do all the work you ask them to. They're going to they're they're going to give you credit for work that they do. They're going to make you look good to clients are going to. Make the senior attorney look helpful to associates partners, and they're going to have the attorney, the senior attorneys back.

[00:46:53] They're going to be like their supporters. People want supporters. And if you're an advocate for the right attorney, you're never going to lose your job. [00:47:00] You're never going to worry about employment security. I hope you can see that because a lot of people are the opposite. But if you become an advocate for your firm and an advocate for your clients and an advocate for.

[00:47:10]The senior attorneys you're going to do very well. And it's just the way it works. And many attorneys believe that they can succeed without getting on other people's sides. This just does no good. You need to support others and you need to be their advocate. And if you don't break, if you break this rule, you're almost always going to have problems.

[00:47:27]You should never bite the hand that feeds you. And feed you and and attorneys are kept around also because they're advocates for the firm.  Law firms know the people that are against them. And and they're always trying to push people  out in those who, not who, those who do not.

[00:47:44] And and you would be surprised. I worked with a New York law firm years ago and and it installed a screen reporting software on their attorneys screen. They did this basically because they were representing big wall street banks and so forth, and they needed to protect sensitive [00:48:00] information and made sure it wasn't shared externally.

[00:48:02] But one day I think there was a story that broke about some rumors. I don't even remember what it was sex or racism or something going on in the firm. And and there was like a gossip thread going on and one of these sites that rights kind of legal tablets and and and and the firm was able to find out the people that posted the, I think the rumor, or told the, the news from the site and and then firing the associates.

[00:48:28] So law firms also know if you have their back. They're watching and they can, a lot of them are watching your screen. So if a law firm doesn't think you're supporting them they're going to not want anything to do with you. And so you should always be very positive about your firm.

[00:48:41]I hate to say it, you need to have the back of your organization. And if you don't have the, if you don't have your firms back they're going to hurt the stability of the firm. And, law firms are always pushing out people who don't support them. They'll do the same to you if they feel you're unhappy.

[00:48:55]  Another thing is law firms we'll always experience bad news. So every [00:49:00] law firm has financial issues. They have departures state make mistakes and and this stuff just happens on and on. If a firm's been around a hundred plus years and hasn't. Pet piece of bad news.

[00:49:12]They probably had a lot of them in the past, so it's just something you need to get used to it. All law firms have bad news and and the most successful law firms always are going to have bad news. It's just the way it works. And so it doesn't mean you suddenly have to turn in your firm because there some bad news and most of the time it's just a, it's a, just what it is.

[00:49:30]It's part of running a firm. And one of the things I've noticed is a lot of times the most successful attorneys inside of firms are have their appears backs. They will share origination credit, meaning they'll bring in clients with they'll share with people close to them and  and they help close to them and help other attorneys or close to them.

[00:49:48] And that makes them look good and makes them do well. I once Southern managing partner of a practice group at one of the largest law firms in the world, he was fired because he public undermined another attorney [00:50:00] trying to pitch a client. He didn't want the attorney to get the work and it was just a private feud and that got him fired because it saw, it showed that he wasn't necessarily helping the firm and I've seen lots of attorneys, advance because they're always covering for and having the backs of their peers.

[00:50:16] And the final thing is, attorneys need to be seen as advocates for the subordinates. And and if you're seen as an advocate for subordinate, you're always going to have people back you up. When I was practicing law, I worked for a very well-known attorney.

[00:50:28] And one day I asked him a few questions about taking depositions and he answered my questions, for a while, longer than he had to. And I thought it was very nice of him. And and then when I got to the opposite, next morning, he left me a series of two or three, 10 minute voicemails. Each time he would get cut off, he would call back and.

[00:50:47] And it just left me all these questions and answers and and it wasn't even asking about something that was billable. I was just asking some general questions about how to take a deposition on or how to defend it a position. And and I realized [00:51:00] how much he cared about his job and helping me.

[00:51:01] And I realized that he was actually a very good person. And because of that I've always had a lot of respect for him and I still stay in touch with him. And I realized that he was so selfless and and I'm still in touch with him to this day and I've sent him a lot of work and I've had other people,  help him and, and I've supported him because he's supported.

[00:51:21] He supported me when you didn't have to I've had this Experience w