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2022-1019 Why the Culture of the Law Firm You Are Working for Will Determine How Happy and Successful You Are Practicing Law

[00:00:00] This is actually one of my personal favorite topics because it's one of the few areas where you have some choice in terms of the type of firm that you're going to work in. And it's something that a surprising number of people don't pay a lot of attention to when they're deciding what type of firm to join.

For their, in their career. So this is one of my favorite topics. I'll do the webinar today and then I don't have a ton of time, so I'm not gonna be able to take as many questions as I typically like to. But I will take some and then if you have other questions, we can pick them up also next week.

And I'm trying to think if there's anything else. And I guess that's it. No, this kid started. So I think that your success practicing law has a lot more to do with the culture of the firm you're working at, which is can be also termed the firm's personality than really any other factor.

And that's what I'm gonna talk about today. And really I, one of the reasons I just say, at the outset I think this topic is so important is because a lot of people join firms and they go in different places and they have a [00:01:00] horrible experience where wherever they're working, and they believe that all law firms are like that.

So they believe the need to go in house. So they believe that because they're in the, in, in a bad, in an environment that makes someone unhappy that maybe they just don't like being a lawyer or they need to do something else, or and so many people do this, and a lot of times it's just the result of being in a bad environment.

And this particular topic kind of comes, come for me is something I think about a lot. I think about it. And for me there's a couple really striking examples that come to mind in our schools. And so when you're I have a daughter who's. A president, a great student, she's like an A student and she's in a school that she really likes.

And and it's a good school. And she was at a school before that wasn't as good of a school and and was getting not good grades. And nothing changed. It was the culture of the school. One of them was a religious school and one she said now is not, and it's just, it. People can thrive and do well depending on the culture of the place that they're in.

I had the same experience growing up. [00:02:00] I went to one school and did horribly, and I went to the next school and did great. So it's just it's not, it's sometimes the person doesn't change. Like you're the same person, but the culture of the place you're in will encourage you to be a certain way and encourage certain types of behaviors and make you a better person or and do well.

And so it's very important. That's what I'm gonna talk about today. I'm gonna talk about the importance of from culture. I'm gonna discuss why people don't think about firm culture when they should. I'm also gonna discuss how it can really I gave you the sense earlier how it can prematurely end so many legal careers and why when you're loo moving firms, it's often really the best time to judge these cultures and to understand how a place can really make you happy and not.

So just as the work and salary and prestige level can vary from firm to firm and it does those every. Firm has different types of work and different salaries. For the most part and prestige. So can the, the culture and the culture really tends to be, especially in the large firms, [00:03:00] and is really the most distinctive type of characteristics.

There's firms where styles valued over substance. There's firms where substances valued over style. Meaning style would mean just, the style I guess. And then substance would be the, how, substantive the work is. And then there's firms where people are very casual, extremely casual.

And there's firms where people are very formal and we're the formalities expected and part of the culture. And then there's firms where even partners chew a back on the office. I've seen firms like that. And there's firms where. The, your family connections may matter a lot.

And there's firms that are very open with their associates and ones that are very secretive. And ones where a lot of people make partner if they do a good job and one's where they don't. And and there's firms where people bill don't have to build a ton of hours and others where they're expected to.

And there's firms where people are universally encouraged to leave after working there a certain number of years and others where they're not. And firms where people, the firms are been going outta business for years and [00:04:00] others that they're not. So I could go on and on.

But the important thing to understand is that your success and happiness as an attorney often has a lot more to do with the culture of the place that you're in, the people that you're around, and whether or not they make you happy and you feel. Good in that kind of environment, then it does with a lot of other other other factors and in the right environment will bring out your skills and strengths in the wrong environment will not.

And and when people like each other and when you feel like you're in a place where you're valued you can really there's really a lot of positive things that come out of that. This observation that was talks about. Something I talked about earlier was that, flunking out of a school, and Einstein of course flunked out of, I guess there's a story about how he flunked out a grade school.

Maybe he was more theoretical than practical at the time, and whatever the reason he was probably in an environment that didn't see him for his, the best of him, or or just he was, he couldn't, people couldn't understand where he was coming from. So you have to ask yourself if you're in an environment [00:05:00] right now where maybe you're trying to do things a certain way and you're trying to do things in a good way, but are you being recognized for being that for your skills and for what you feel like you're trying to do?

And that may not be that you're doing anything wrong. It literally may be you're just in the wrong environment. And because when you see eye to eye with your employer, when your employer. Appreciate your skills. You're much more likely to be successful than if you're in an environment where the opposite is true.

And it's just something to think about. Think about how would you be received if, and by, assuming you came out of a nice family, how would your family receive you if with certain things? And how would they encourage you? And how would other environments encourage you and other environments may not.

So you have to understand why this is important. And a lot of people obviously don't think about the importance of culture when they're joining a firm. And and a lot of people, and this is one of the biggest mistakes, and and it's, there's reasons for it, and it's not all bad, but [00:06:00] most people think about the prestige level.

The firm that they're going to is the most important thing. They think about money is the most important thing. And they really often give a lot more attention to that. Than than the than other factors when they're deciding where to practice. And so if you look at a firm based on where you believe you're gonna fit in the best and and evaluate things based on that you're much more likely to often find success than than in practice of law than not.

And and the problem is most attorneys obviously do not think this way. They think in terms of other things other than. They don't think about the culture. They think about prestige levels and and things, and and it's just and a lot of it has to do with the fact that attorneys are competitive and and other types of reasons.

And but and that's fine, but the pressure to join these firms I, in my opinion is not positive because it can often distract you from places where where you could otherwise do very well and be happy. My opinion. So this is, predictable I don't want go too much into it, but to get [00:07:00] into the best law schools, attorneys are very motivated to be successful in college.

And and then the ones that are successful, in law school, and then they decide to to shut sacrifice and go to best firms they can. And and the problem is that many times you're thinking about what looks best to others. Does it look better to join a, the biggest firms, the different types of firms and so forth.

And and that sort of thinking can often distract you from really what's going to be best from you individually. And and there's certainly not a, there's not a, there are a lot of advantages to being part of really good firms. But at the same time if the culture isn't a good fit for you and there's things about that firm that's negative for you, then then that's not always gonna be the best thing.

And cultures. By the way, I wanna make a couple quick points about cultures before I go on. Cultures are often set by even geographic locations. So obviously being in a firm in San Francisco is gonna be different than being in a firm in Chicago. Being in a firm in [00:08:00] Chicago is gonna be different than being in New York.

Being in Miami is gonna be different than being in Houston and different cities have, and then being in a smaller market's gonna be different than being in a larger market. So these type of cultural considerations are very important because if you join a market that you're not comfortable in it, and that the culture will set it there.

And even within these, even within the markets, there's cultures within different firms too. And honestly most attorneys are seen as very competitive and money hungry and so forth by the public. And and a lot of times attorneys will have subordinated kind of a lot of their happiness and pursuit of money and things and respect and from their peers.

And and so because people are so motivated by the how they're viewed by others, I think a lot of times they think that these things are what they which are important. And so they will. Talk, they will ba judge themselves based on their financial achievements and their, the quality of the firm and so forth that they go to.

And and I think that that's not [00:09:00] necessarily the smartest thing. I think that you really need to think through what you're doing and how that makes you happy and whether or not it's in your best interest to pursue a certain line of thought like that. And many times, not considering the firm culture will often end careers that I otherwise have been very successful.

I see this all the time. You can find out the a firm's compensation structure and their billable hour requirements very easily. But the, these are really in my opinion, very superficial. You can figure out a, the firm's prestige level, like how prestigious it is and you can do all the stuff, but you can't necessarily find as much information about the firm's culture and understand if it's place where you're likely to be happy the rest of your career.

And I think that one of the most significant mistakes attorneys make when they're evaluating firms is believing that money and prestige are some of the most important things you should, because. Because money is obviously an important component, but it's not the most crucial factor. If you think that [00:10:00] money's important then you're probably and again, it's it, there is, it is important.

I'm not saying it's not important, but you have to consider whether or not the people you're working with are the sorts of people that you would be happy practicing law with for several years. And and whether or not you feel like it's going to ha you're gonna have a stable career in. When I go into firms a lot of times you can get a real sense of what it's going to be like to work there.

Sometimes even just by the way, the sec, by the, by how the, you're greeted by the how serious they are, how easy going, and you can really get a sense of a firm many times by the people that you know, that you're coming in contact with early on is one of the things that I see.

And I often notice that the firms where I'm the most comfortable, and it doesn't really matter what type of firm will typically act a certain way in your early contact with them. And the people will act a certain way because they're there, there's a certain type of comfort level.

If you go to a firm just because of money you're, you may not ev ever be that happy and. [00:11:00] And I think that what happens is the best attorneys often end up in best firms because they so much promise, but then they end up very unhappy later in their career.

And and I've seen so many people that, wound up in really good firms at the beginning of their career and then ended up in careers that I couldn't believe male carriers and and things and career contractor attorneys. And again, there's nothing wrong with that, but my opinion is that this often happens because they wound up in, in a cultural environment that really sucked a lot of life out of them and made them unhappy.

And and the problem is that a lot of people may believe that they're finding happiness in jobs outside the law when if they'd wound up in a, and if they'd started in a firm but there was culturally where they were more comfortable, they would've stayed a longer time. And and I speak with attorneys honestly on a daily basis.

That really, they began their careers with the most prestigious firms and they often stopped practicing law because they were just very unhappy. And they say things like, I would only go in house. I never walk [00:12:00] another law firm. And and many times what people will do if they're unhappy is they'll bounce around from city in, within a city to firm trying to find the word cultural fit or the right place.

It makes 'em happy and they won't. And and many times they just keep joining the same firm basically the same firm like they were in, when they were in school or when they when they came outta law school. And and they pick one type of law firm to work in and The problem is that when the culture's a bad fit, when the market you're in's a bad fit, when the types of people you're working with is a bad fit you may never end up being happy because people law firms have cultures and they have different ways of thinking about problems and different ways of thinking about their staff and different approaches to things.

And and honestly not fitting in is the, is really the one of the biggest mistakes that people make. They are uncomfortable in a culture. They, the culture doesn't like them for the kind of person there respect them. And that's what happens.

And so when you're thinking about where [00:13:00] you're people put a lot of thought into things like where they're gonna live in a certain city or they put a lot of thought into the type of they're friends or their, the clubs they're gonna be part of or the the organizations they join or the who their mate's going to be and things like that.

And those are important decisions. And most of those decisions, by the way, are cultural in nature. If you have a mate, a lot of people will join. Someone that will get together with someone that's a similar religion or a similar, has a similar background, and they share a similar interest.

And that's how things have always worked. Now that's just, I say that's always true, but most of the time it is. And you'll do the same thing with friends. You'll do the same thing with organizations. She'll do the same thing with where you live. I'm amazed cuz I live in Los Angeles I can't believe Different.

Some neighborhoods are, and there's neighborhoods that are incredibly conservative and uptight, and there's others where I mean it is, it would blow your mind. And so this is these are the decisions that people make. And where they choose is a [00:14:00] cultural decision. And so it's the same thing with the type of firm you join, it should be a cultural decision.

You should go to a place where you feel accepted, where you can be yourself, and where you can be appreciated and where the people have are similar to you and not different. And and whether or not that market enhances your lifestyle becomes a driving portion. Your just, person's your decision.

There are areas of the country where where you could not, where if you were a same sex couple, for example, where you would be very uncomfortable walking around with your mate. And there are areas where. You could do that easily. And there are areas where if you were conservative and wore a bow tie and walked around, people would think you were crazy.

It's just it depends on the market. And it's the same thing with firms. The kind of people you're with. Really have a lot to do with your, with how happy you're gonna be and whether or not you're accepted. So you wanna be with a group of people that you feel are gonna accept you where they have similar goals and interest, and where the firm will compliment your lifestyle and where you can feel accepted [00:15:00] and like you can be yourself.

And and what is the culture of the firm? Is it the type of firm where you're comfortable or is it not? And if it's not the sort of firm where you're likely to be comfortable, then then that's not good. And and you're probably not gonna be happy. And geography to some extent does have a lot to do with culture because people work different ways and different geographies.

But but each firm, there's different cultures in each firm and and so it's, it everything is related. And you have to understand the type of people and work that you're gonna be best suited with. So I think in a lot of respects when you're moving to firms laterally, and this is just, I say this just because I happen to, do the kind of work I'm doing, but one of the things you wanna understand is if you're unhappy where you're at, you wanna get a sense of what is the culture like in the place that I'm talking to?

And and and so you need to ask those questions and you need to understand what the culture is like and wherever you're talking to. And I can't Always answer the right questions about a culture of a firm. You get a [00:16:00] sense of the culture really from talking to people, from the sort of people you talk to, from how they seem when you talk to them, how guarded, knockout guarded they are.

And honestly one of the things that's so interesting about culture is it can really vary from practice group to practice group and then a firm. So there could be 20 different cultures to some extent. There's honestly, there could be a bunch of different cultures and and so you may not always understand it.

And one of the things that's interesting too, and this ist. Necessarily a positive thing, but a lot of firms have very clear cultures. And a couple interesting three interesting firms would be places like Cravath or Wau or Sullivan or Croma, where it's very rare for them to bring in people at a lateral level because they just, they have a certain culture that they don't want to interfere with.

And then there's other firms that are constantly bringing in people from all sorts of d. Firms and mergers and practice group, all this stuff. And then you have different cultures there, and that's can be [00:17:00] positive or negative, but a lot of times and then there's firms that are where all the business that comes in is shared among the partners, and then this words not.

And so all this stuff shapes culture, cultures with the firm. And and really the only way you're often gonna get a sense of the culture is talking to people and seeing how how they behave and what they're like. And and the interview really is at many times where you can pick up on that information and where you can and understand the way things work.

And a thing that's interesting to me, this is just an aside about of cultures. Many times you'll go to interview with firms and that everyone you talk to is almost like, paranoid and like very guarded and not sharing information. And it's just weird, you mean? Sometimes that's a good thing and sometimes it's a bad thing.

There's often cultures where there's all these rules about how to behave and act. And if you follow that, you can do very well. There's other cultures that are just loosey-goosey and everyone's kinda acting, very open. And that can be a good thing too, but it's also [00:18:00] could be risky because maybe, everyone's following a different set of rules.

It's not a good thing. So every culture of every law firm is different. And when you're looking at different firms as a summer associate, many times you don't have a lot of choice and you're just choosing the best place. Assuming you did have choice what happens, is you will click with certain cultures, but as a lateral, it's a little bit different.

And you have the ability to look at places and understand how much you like the culture and get a sense. And typically what'll happen with culture is a firm with a culture that matches what you're trying to do, it's almost a natural kind of meeting and then you have to do it in person because of body language and who knows what else.

And just being comfortable, I think, And even something as simple as seeing how people care. There's just a lot to it. And but when you're meeting people in person and understand the culture, the I that I think and I in person meeting goes a long way in and is very important in terms of what, how you're connecting with people and the things you're [00:19:00] seeing.

And I, the reason I was pausing and going off kill track a little bit is I was thinking about a meeting that I had in a law firm not too long ago. And I went in and.

I was interviewing a partner about some lateral work they were doing or something, and I noticed that he was wearing these shoes that were like, almost from like a, like they looked like they were from a, I don't know, not even a Walmart, like something cheaper than that. And they the laces were coming apart and the shoes were coming apart.

And then I, and it was just weird and it was a okay firm, but it was like a firm that and that to me it just, it said something about the culture, the firm, that this guy was comfortable. Coming in to, to work with, Jesse like that. And which again, there's nothing wrong wearing beat up tennis shoes from a dime store, but it was just, it just didn't, I don't know.

It didn't, it said something about the firm to me. And and so when you're interviewing with is a lateral, you can you can pick up on all this kind of stuff and it can give you a sense is this the kind of place you wanna work? And and so there's just [00:20:00] a lot of things that you can pick up when you're talking and learning about a culture.

So the first thing is, once you get an interview, you can go in and and you should research the firm and understand things, but and get a sense of how they're doing financially. That's not, for most large firms, there's nothing really to worry about. But really to get a sense of culture, these are things that people do.

The partner associate ratio can be important. And but just and these are just simple questions you can look at, but realizing that that, the partner associate ratio can mean something. It can typically mean in environments by the way, where there's a lot of associates compared to partners.

That typically means that there's a lot of work and where there's fewer partners and and fewer, or there's not a lot of associates per partner. That means there's less work. So that typically means there's not gonna be a lot of it's gonna be harder to move up. So you have to look at all these things, and these are factors that that, I don't need to spend a lot of time talking about, but if you interview, if the partner at associate ratio is like one to,[00:21:00] if there's one associate and three partners, that means that the partners typically have all their work on work and they're doing their own work.

And there's just a lot of things you pick up based on the type of environment. Diversity can can be Im important. The diversity, there's different types of diversity. You certainly have racial and sexual and all these different of diversity, but you also had diversity of thought.

So did you believe that it would be okay to think differently? And you would, do you think that they would welcome other types of thinking? I don't know, but you just have to think about this. And and then you also have to think about the office. A home office often has a much different culture.

The satellite office, satellite offices are often not always, but a lot of times they're offices that have a firm may set up an office in a city, and then they'll send out maybe one or two partners from the home office, and then they'll start rating local firms for people. And that can shape the culture.

So if you have people that were unhappy at one firm and go to other that sometimes will [00:22:00] affect the type of people that work there. It's just and how committed they are. These are things that will have a person that will affect the firm and they're just things to think about satellite offices.

Can be very happy places to work and nice places, but they can also they can, if they don't bring in enough work or they they can be very scary places. So these are all things to think about. And and just knowing about the culture of a firm in one city that may be the main office, it doesn't mean that the satellite office is gonna be like that as well.

So understanding what it's like to be in a satellite office versus a main office is a huge difference. It's a much different thing working in many satellite offices, the main offices and some of the satellite offices or firms are arguably just as good, if not better than the main office.

But you have to understand this. And one of the things is that a lot of times management decisions are made in the main office. The people in the satellite offices are often a little don't have as much power in their scare. And that can be scary. And and sometimes firms will open [00:23:00] satellite offices just because of one client or a couple, or because they think it'd be cool to have a satellite office and that can not be a good thing.

So satellite offices are something to think about. The stability of the firm is another one. The. A lot of times the culture will be shaped because the firm represents certain types of people. I had the I don't know if it was funny, but I was talking to a firm not too long ago and it was in, I dunno, it was an Albany or something.

And their clients were all company, I couldn't believe it, I couldn't even tell from the website. But they were main clients. Were all people that represent that made adult films. And and the other firms, some other firms will represent companies and in different industries.

And so you just have to understand you cannot learn a lot about the firm by its clients. You can learn a lot about the firm by the types of work that they do and how stability it is. You can learn a lot about the firm. The location where they put their offices in the city, that sometimes says, will say something about their [00:24:00] commitment to the market or their, how important.

I think that, that sort of thing. You can it just depends. And so the yeah. And then, and lemme see if there's anything here. Yeah let's see. Clients, I talked a little bit about that that can give you sense of things that the types of clients, the firm represents.

The and sometimes the revenue that comes. Clients. So some law firms may have just a few clients. So they I was years ago working for this firm and they had literally one client and the firm got to be 50 plus attorneys, and then the client got in a fight with the firm and that was it.

The firm went out of business and I honestly was still remember that firm very well because of that. So that can be something and some other firms will represent a lot of smaller clients. Other firms will represent only the largest clients. Other firms will represent, have clients that are what are called institutional clients, that are just large clients that have continually been giving the firm work over sometimes decades.

And [00:25:00] those firms can become very conservative and bureaucratic, which affects the the firm. And the reason for that is because they have this kind of consistent revenue coming in. So they're trying to keep costs down while increasing profits, while managing. There's all sorts of things that affect clients that firms that way.

And it can, the firms can become very conservative. And and that's another thing see here. So that can shape the culture based on the clients and the type of people. See. How the firm's government governed is another thing. Some firms will have very professional management others the lawyers will pretty much be doing all the management work.

It just depends. And so the firm, the way they structure things will often come across in the interviews. The, some lawyers are democratic in terms of decision making. Others aren't, where the partners don't even have a role only a few partners in the firm may. And so the cultures can different there.

And some, so you have to, you can get a sense of that many times, and this is a lot of information and I don't know that [00:26:00] all of this is. That relevant. But you can get a sense of all these things from talking to people. A couple things that I think are really important to understand are talking to people that are, have been at the firm are the reputation of the firm.

So some firms have a reputation as being very sweat shops. Others have a reputation of being you can get a firm can get a reputation very quickly from just dumb things that may have happened and or mistakes that people have made. And that's not always the culture of a firm can change very quickly.

Asking people that, that have worked there can help, but at the same time, because the culture might be a certain practice here, it might have a different culture than than than the main firm. And you're just getting generalizations. And one of the things I don't like about generalizations is when you get kind of generalizations, you start talking to people about the firm.

What'll happen sometimes is you'll go in there and you'll have all these preconceptions about the firm and the way it is, and and you'll and that'll come across. And so you'll be suspicious [00:27:00] and you'll think negatively of the firm, and then you won't get a job. So you really want to go in with an open mind and then even talking to people later and seeing if things are confirmed whether or not you're comfortable or not.

And and reputation, in my opinion it, it means something, but not everything. And and so it's just, these are just things to, to think about. See here. Lifestyle firms are another way that people talk about firms and I believe that quality of life firms is one is certainly something that people talk about.

But just as in the problem with talking about a white shoe firm is, not a white shoe, a lifestyle firm is that if you, if it's called a lifestyle firm Any law firm out there needs to make money, any, and that means billing as many hours as they can when they need to. Every law firm, in addition, in needing to make money also has clients that have emergencies.

And so things need and things get busy. So if you try to join a lifestyle firm many times the firm still has to be responsive to clients and make money. So is that a good thing or not? And just you have to understand that [00:28:00] even though they may have a lower billbo, our requirement things can still get busy and billion hours and almost every firm is a condition of advancement.

So lifestyle firm. The person that works the hardest in any firm is still gonna be the one that gets ahead. A lifestyle firm can mean that the firm is easy going about certain things, but typically it's something to be very careful law firms that call themselves. One, one of the things I just, I wanted to, I'll make a quick point about this and and my whole career I've been working for or with firms and and everyone always talks about lifestyle things are easier at this firm.

And typically what happens is that, it's funny cuz when firms hold themselves out as being a lifestyle firm and in a lot of major markets, really what they're doing is they're doing that for a couple reasons. One would be they want to get the very best. Attorneys as laterals many times.

So someone will start their firm, their job at a huge firm, and then they'll, the firm will try to [00:29:00] cultivate those reputations being a lifestyle firm and then attract those people. But then those people come to the firm and find out that really, maybe they've got a nicer attitude, but it's the same everywhere.

And so you just have to be very careful. And the politics of the firm can mean something. The firms are the the, I dunno can mean different things. Let's see here. And certain firms are more democratic and have different things, than others.

It can, it's just a thing. But really I think the best way to evaluate whether or not a firm is the right one for you, is just to meet with the firms and just focus on the interview process and see how you feel and how you feel. I think really gives the biggest sense of whether or not the culture's a match for you.

Cause I meet people all the time and certain people immediately strike me as the kind of people I like, and they make me comfortable and I feel happy. And other people, and I just don't and those are cultural things. And and so you, you have to really get a sense of that. And and and when you understand what the firm is like and you get a sense of how the people are, how comfortable they seem to do how connected you feel to them how.

How [00:30:00] they open up to you about certain things then then you may get more comfortable. I don't think you can always pick up on the culture of a firm based on asking what the culture's I think it's more how the firm treats you, what the things they say to you, the equipment questions they ask.

What do they consider important the type of people, how comfortable they seem to do all these sorts of things and and how open they are and not open. And that can mean something to you. You may wanna go to a firm where everyone is very just very professional and doesn't social and or you may want go to one where people are the opposite.

It's just, it depends on what's important to you and and and learning what people like or why they. The firm is often very important. You have to be careful, I think, of kind of BS questions and BS answers. So sometimes people will say, Oh, I went to the firm because, and they'll give you kind of some reason that doesn't make a lot of sense, but sometimes people will have really good answers like that are that, that are really.

Good about [00:31:00] what, what stuck out about the firm or how they found it. And and you can get a sense of things. And one of the things I like is I like to see how comfortable partners are with with the people that are bringing you around. How friendly people seem and how friendly people seem with each other and how happy And that's one way to really get a sense of things, I think a lot of times.

And and or how professional and how, just how people seem with each other. That can help. I also always like the idea of the open doors versus the closed doors. I think that can be, Interesting to see how that works. I think some people like to may close their doors because they're deep in thought and work.

Others may close their doors because they don't like their colleagues. You have to you have to, you can get a sense many times of how messy people's offices are. Some firms you walk around and the offices are sp and span and every book is ordered and others they're not. It's just, you can get a sense of all these things.

You can get a sense based on people and talk to each other. Sometimes you walk into firms and you go into the [00:32:00] offices and people have basketball nets and ping bomb, ping pong machines in their office. And it's, you just all sorts of things. And you get a sense of the culture there.

I wouldn't, I've been in offices before where people had. Ashtrays, and this is after, years after people stopped smoking off and just things like that with things in them. And so you just you get a sense of all this stuff based on the type of places you're interviewing with.

And I'm just giving you some ideas here, but if showing a law firm going there and talking to the people gives you a real sense of things. And then they offer can also say a lot of things about the firm. So some firms May just give you an offer and then not give you the opportunity to ask questions.

Others will. So it, sometimes if you get an offer it's a nice thing to go back and ask different questions. And you can do that sometimes the formality of the offer. Does someone call you? Do you get a letter? How does that work? That that can help you? You can you can sometimes ask if you can talk to a few more people.

Sometimes you can do that, if you'd like. And so [00:33:00] there's just different things you can do after getting an offer if you don't have, if you still have questions about what the what the firm's and that can be helpful as well. That's really about it. I, my I've written a lot about this.

I wrote another article called Finding Your Tribe or something along those lines. And and I think that. That's a very helpful thing to review. But I do feel that the quality of your experience practicing law will often be really often determined based on the culture of the firm and the sorts of people that you're working with.

And they will either encourage you to do your best and to reach goals or or they won't. And I wanted to I've thought so much about this, so many different levels over the years and but I was thinking something about what my and this is just an example of schools, and I gave this kind of at the beginning, but I was thinking about this when I went to when I was in Eighth grade, I I went to this school in a suburb in Detroit.

And it was this, it was a funny place, but [00:34:00] it was pretty much this very kind of white shoe. Everyone had to dress up for school where coats and ties and, but it was it was basically a school that it was a bunch of kids from the auto industry or, really, Big families around Detroit and and it was very formal.

And and so the things that were important to them were when you wrote, making sure you had perfect grammar when you just the, how neat your penmanship was in your math problems. These are literally the was the emphasis. And and then just things that that, that was what was important to them.

So I went to the school and literally for and I went there in eighth grade and it was only there a year, but everything I did was horrible. They didn't like the penmanship on the math problems. They didn't like my my writing they didn't think of was grammatic perfect. Everything I did was criticized and and they thought was negative.

And and then my daughter had the same experience going to this kind of religious school and. I think maybe in seventh grade. And and everything she did was negative. And so they criticized her and said she was a bad math student and a bad this, and [00:35:00] bad that. And then and then in my case, I went to another school and and all of a sudden everything I did was great and it was a even a better school.

And and and they were very encouraging. And and they, and any, the things that I did that were good, they encouraged more of, and then eventually the things that they needed and all these other things, they the, I cleaned up in the long run. It just worked itself out. But the point is in that the, my daughter went to another school and everything she did was considered different.

You have these experiences with law firms as well. And the first law firm I worked in was a great law firm and it was a kind of a match my culture and it did very well there. And the next one I went to wasn't as good of a fit for me and was such that I just hated it and and wanted to leave the practice of law.

So the point is, these cultures and these environments will impact how you do and how successful you are. And if you're in the wrong culture you can feel badly about your job. You can feel them [00:36:00] competent. You can feel that there's something wrong with you and you can and the people around you aren't bringing out your best and you're not bringing out your best and yourself.

And so all of these things are harmful and and the best cultures are very good. They will bring out the best in you. Now, what's interesting in my opinion about culture and then I'll. Wrap this up. But what's interesting about cultures is that just because a culture's good for you doesn't mean it's gonna be good for other people.

So when I've gone to cultures where I've done very well, I've watched all these people that theoretically should have been much more successful in them than I was have horrible horrible experience and do badly. And the same time when I've gone to cultures where I didn't do well, all these people that I probably should have been doing much better than were doing better than me.

And so your performance in a different, in different cultures will often be determined based how the culture of the firm and what's, what. Another thing that's interesting is you you can go to certain cultures and every, all the [00:37:00] men are getting together and talking about baseball and football and other cultures that the men would never be even be interested in this kind of thing.

And again, there's nothing. Wrong with either of those things. And the same thing with, the sort similar things with women and just, but every culture is completely different. And and so you need to under understand that, and you need to realize that you're going to, you're going to fit in certain places and and not others.

And that's just how it works. It, it works that way everywhere. And you're gonna be happy and successful to the extent that you are able to be in the right culture. And and so this is what we do at our companies to, to some extent. We try to help you find the right culture, but you're look at this, What's going on here?

But you're really going to succeed to the extent that you're able to find the right culture. With that I will take a quick break and then when I come back I will do questions.

Q&A

Sorry, I. Few minutes for questions, but let me try to get through them as quickly as possible. And [00:38:00] then if you have any additional ones for next week I can try to work with those. So what should top sense you should look for when I'm trying to find a firm that fits my cultural views?

I think the most important thing is just how comfortable you feel so you can walk into certain places and feel good about yourself, and then you can walk into certain places and you walk out, you don't feel good about yourself, and that's really it. So it's, I think it's how comfortable you feel and how accepting the firm is of you.

So some firms will you, you will just walk in and you won't feel good. You'll talk to a few people and you will just not get a good sense. You'll immediately pick up that there's just something off here, and that's probably a bad atmosphere for you. Other firms, you'll walk in and you'll automatically sense or immediately sense the people like you.

You'll just be very comfortable there. And and that to me is one of the best things. That it's just how the feeling you get and and I think that when you're talking to places, you base it on that the, how [00:39:00] does a firm make you feel? How does a, do you feel and do you feel like safe around these people and you feel like they can bring out the best in you?

Lemme see. What if, the only thing I don't like about the firm is this image should I. Okay so I'm not really sure what that question is. But so different firms have different images, and and the image of a firm, maybe something related to its I dunno, it's practice area or its reputation.

And it's and so I, I think, yeah, I think in that particular case I don't think it's really too much to worry about the image here.

Okay. How important is it to work like the people. You work with there's someone you don't like that's probably over time. One of the things that I've noticed about liking and not liking people is that I, I think that typically things will always change over time. So sometimes you like people some days and others you don't.

And so I, I think that, and that is a cultural type of thing that there is a saying that that one third of the people that [00:40:00] you meet, you'll like the other third you won't care and the other third you won't like and I think it's like that with most people. So I think liking people, Is is not necessary to always be successful.

But I think that if people like you, I think it can definitely help you be more successful where you're at. Being likable and then liking the people. I do think it's important to, the people you work with, just from the standpoint that if you don't like them, then it's going to come across and they're gonna see that you don't like them.

If people think you don't like them, then then that's just then that's not always a positive thing. So I always I do think that it's important to to make sure that that you that you know, that you do the people to, to some extent.

 Or at least try to. And really I think one of, one of the things about liking people, I think, is that you want to make sure that you do what you can to to see the best in people and to, to not to, to not to not be dis to not dislike them. So anybody that's your employer, you [00:41:00] should definitely do your best to like, even if you don't necessarily, if you find reasons to, to not like them.

A lot of people, I think, I was hearing, I heard the other day, I don't know when it was, but the, one of the signs of people that are tend to be very successful and happy is they always see the best in situations and the best in other people. And people that are unhappy and unsuccessful will often see the worst in situations and the worst in other people.

So I do think that's important. Okay. Let's see here. Do people that are liked more than others get more work? Yes. I think that if you are I, if you're liked, but you don't do good work, then I think that the quality of the work you do is much better. So the quality of the work matters the most.

But I think but I think that if you're liked and you're in, you're easygoing and easy to give work to. If you're easy to give work to and get work from then easy to give, work to and get work from, and you're much more likely to be like, Or from is more important than being liked.

Than being liked. Ok, lemme see. [00:42:00] Few more minutes. Lemme see,

see here. What are some questions I should ask and find out fit into the culture? This is a good question. So what are some ways, questions to ask to find out if I couldn't the culture. So I think that the, typically asking why people like the firm, what and things along those lines or what, why they want to work there, what who's the most fun, who's not the most fun thing, things like that.

What, or what is your typical day like, what are you what do you enjoy most about your job? Those are all Normal questions and but I think you can find out a lot about the culture by when you ask questions, really how open people are, and not just how professional they are with their responses, but often how open they are and that can give you insights into their culture.

The willingness of people to connect or not connect with you is also very important I think when you're talk, asking questions about the culture. If people are not connecting and are keeping a real professional distance that's a cultural thing. It may be because they don't wanna, you don't know.

So [00:43:00] you have to understand those sort of aspects of the culture as well. And I think that that's very important as well. Lemme just see here, and I answered that.

How can it be motivated if the firm's is not the best environment for me? The best way to, to, to really I think this is a good question. So if a firm isn't the best environment for you, So there's a lot of, there's a lot of things that go into that question. So sometimes firms are maybe sure from a political standpoint that may not be good.

The, it may have a a culture that whatever reason you, you don't feel comfortable with or but the best way to, to do well in any type of environment is really to become exceptional at your job. So if you become exceptional at your job and you exceed the qu the what you just do a very good job, then you're gonna be a respecter for the quality of your work and the environment doesn't matter.

So the, there was, winners create their own success. And so you create your own success by by doing good work, by [00:44:00] understanding the requirements of the job, by exceeding the requirements, by by doing extra things that people aren't necessarily anticipating. And and not concentrating on things that may be negative about the environment.

And again, every environment is, has negatives associated with it doesn't matter what it is, it doesn't matter where it is. Every environment has negatives. And so the best way to do it is really to take control over your career by making sure that that you just do an exceptional job and do your job the best you can and always be improving and take an interest in what you're doing.

And then people will respect you for that and and you will ex succeed based on that. And I think that's one of the mistakes that a lot of people make. I. I've just been thinking. I've had people before in, in, in in our company for example, and in places where I've worked that will always be talking about negative stuff or thinking about negative stuff.

And and one day I remember it was funny. It was a it was a custodian. And this girl used to come into [00:45:00] my office and just talk negative, and it was late at night. And the custodian said why don't you just stop talking about all this negative stuff?

Why don't you just concentrate on your job instead of talking negative all the time? And I thought it was really interesting. And he was someone that she was friendly with. And it's true. You just, you worry about your job and not the environment, and then everything else will come into place.

And there are people that do well and every environment they go into, it doesn't matter. If the environment is toxic or crazy or whatever it is, they just do well because they're, they concentrated on their job. And and I think that, that to me is. One of, one of the most important things is just doing in terms of how you do things in your job.

And then lemme just see here this next question. This is my final question cuz I need to on cause I have another get out here a little early today. But the the one, the final question is, it says, what are some ways to avoid conflicts with those I strongly disagree with? So everyone has people in their in wherever they work [00:46:00] that they disagree with.

And and it's just, it's unavoidable. Sometimes people maybe overly want just, you'll disagree with 'em. And in my opinion, the best way to avoid conflict is just to not engage. There, there's a Dale Carnegie principle, and I think it's, other people said it too, but you just Carnegie, you just never.

Never criticize never condemn, never criticize, condemn or what I don't know, criticize or condemn in people. So you just never really tell people your negative opinions of them. So everybody has negativity and people that they disagree and disagree with 'em that they dislike. And and you always will, you're always gonna have that.

But the people that you, we tend to remember the most and that hurt us the most are the ones that criticize us or say negative stuff to us. And if you disagree with someone, you typically don't ever wanna say anything. You do whatever you can, especially if it's a superior.

But even up here you do whatever you can to avoid any type. Conflict and and to just not make the person feel negative. And that and again, it may not [00:47:00] be your first instinct, but the people that are very critical and the people that are do that sort of stuff are often often get themselves into a lot of trouble for that.

And it's very hard to avoid being critical of people and to criticize other people. But really the key to good relationships and good employment and obviously in, if you're a supervisor, You have to criticize them all day sometimes. But it is not it doesn't help you when you're working for other people to criticize them or to even make them think you have criticisms of them.

And it's just, even if you do, and most of the time if you have criticisms of people they will they'll fix them on their own, but some people won't. Unfortunately, but but great question. Okay thank you. I apologize I don't have more time today. I'll but if you I do have some additional questions here and I will make sure I get I copy these and I'll try to answer them as well next week.

But thank you for being on the webinar.