The Only Six Factors Prestigious Law Firms Care About When Hiring Lateral Attorneys

Description

[00:00:00] All right, so we will get started. So today's webinar is what I consider one of the, probably the most important webinar that you may ever see related to your job search, because it talks about things that are important for your your resume talks about your attitude. And it really covers all the things that end up hurting people and preventing them from getting positions with different size firms.

And I would also say that this doesn't just apply to prestigious firms and really applies to every single firm you apply to and may be interested in working with very few exceptions.

Over the past few decades of doing this and having placed thousands, if not tens of thousands of attorneys, what I've realized in our companies is that there's a lot of people that can go into any type of interview that they apply to.

And when you look at their resume, we'll get practically every position that they get an interview for. And at the same time, there's a lot of people out there that run into trouble and they may go out and have several interviews and never convert that into a job [00:01:00] offer.

They may have a very difficult time getting interviews and there's reasons for that.

The way that law firms typically evaluate people is based on about six issues that I'm gonna cover.

And these are really the most important .

The first one is, can we market you to our clients?

The second one is, can you do the job the way we want it done?

The third one is, do you want the job?

The fourth one is, will you fit in?

The then fifth one is can we manage you?

And the sixth one is, will you stay long term?

There's certainly other questions that you could ask in addition to these but I believe that these are the most important ones. Especially for the most prestigious firms.

So the first one is, can we market to our clients? This is a basic one. But it's also very important. The best firms really have clients that are, wanna pay quite a bit of money for attorneys and they're willing to pay for the best attorneys and firms charge a lot of money for those attorneys.

And typically the very largest firms and the the most prestigious firms will have general counsels and other sorts of people that are [00:02:00] reviewing who's working on their matters. And those people want to be able to review your resume and your background, and be very pleased with it and think that the law firm that they've hired is doing a very good job hiring people and law firms, and that they have the best people working on it.

And law firms essentially are in the business of hiring people, which is what we help with. And and then running out the people that they hire to people to, to outside companies essentially, and the more prestigious the law firm and the higher the billing rates the more important it is that your background and so forth looks good to the firm's.

This is why for top firms things like top law schools that you went to, and it doesn't have to be a top law school, if you did very well at a lower level law school, but law schools are important. Things like having done well in law school being in order, the co is important various clerkships and so forth can be very important.

Being a Validictorian of your college or law schools. Obviously another big deal being on law review or is, can be important. [00:03:00] And other credentials that look very attractive to firms are things that they look for because the the more of those credentials you have the more special the law firm looks in the eyes of its clients, and then the higher, the billing rates they can charge and the more clients you're willing to trust and whether it matters.

The other thing of course, would be you're the, obviously the type of firm that you're coming from. And if it's a peer firm, if you're hired later, whether they can say you worked at that firm before but the better experience the firm's lawyers have, whether it's leadership roles and articles that they've written that have been in prestigious law reviews important trials, they want the better the firm looks to its clients, the larger, the transactions, and so forth.

And the better the law firm looks to its clients. The more money they can charge, and the more competent the market will have 'em firm in his attorneys. And also the better attorneys that the law firm hires will tend to attract other attorneys because what attorneys do when they wanna work somewhere is they'll look at the qualifications of the other attorneys that they may be working with.

And if those attorneys look like they have very good qualifications on their law firm looks much better in their eyes. Most major [00:04:00] law firms work for in-house counsel. In fact, almost all of them do. The in-house council are very aware of the quality of attorneys that are working on their matters.

And when law firms pitch matters to in-house council, typically what they do is they'll include the biographies many times with the people that would be staffed on the matters. Sometimes we'll just put the partner that would be working on it. But other times they'll tell you the experts that they have in the field and they'll list those various people on.

When they present the list of whom to be working on a different matter that they're pitching and law firms are all competing to be hired by clients. And the quality of their staffing is important to them to win new business. So you can imagine the very best law firms going out and showing all these great people that they have, that gives a lot of confidence to the general council or the in-house council that's reviewing it.

That makes them think that the work will be very well done that the in-house council will be hiring the right person and not making a mistake. They go to the the leadership of the company and explain this, and then the leadership hires based on that recommendation. And the [00:05:00] typically, and this isn't always the case, but the larger, more prestigious the law firm, the better the paper qualifications, the attorneys who have that are working on the firm's matters.

And there's lots of very prestigious law firms that have a lot of very talented people working there. That look very good on paper, but they don't always need to hire from the very best law schools. Sometimes the people that they hire from schools may not be the best but will typically be at the top of their class in terms of their qualifications.

And and again sometimes they may hire people that are capable of doing the work, but may not have great academic qualifications, but may have have things that stick out that could be for example, top, former college athletes and so forth. And so just how it works when you wanna work in a lot large law firm especially when you're laterally, but also when you're coming from in law schools it's almost like how to get into a very competitive college it's if you go to Cal tech or MIT as a college, that the person's probably test off the chart in math and science and and [00:06:00] you just there's really no doubt about it.

And someone that goes to Harvard may be off the charts in math or science, but more than likely than not they're off the charts and a lot of things, and also have very good extracurricular or other types of qualifications and make them very unique. You just can't walk into, Wal to schools like this, and it's the same thing.

When you look at people from other types of schools, there's nothing wrong with the university of Nebraska or Cal state Chico, but people obviously will reach conclusions about that. And the same thing with law firms. So the very best law firms, people will always know that there is something very unique and special about their attorneys that they're likely to have very good qualifications to get in the door.

And there's special things about them. And and it just, they will know that, and the law firms are status conscious because they're essentially in the business of running people out. Someone that works there is considered to be a certain level of skill, and they can only do that of their attorneys to appear, to be very good products on paper.

And law firms are running out their attorneys. You have to think about that. So you have [00:07:00] to keep in mind that when they, because they're renting them out, it's no different than renting out a car or something. What, I'm just giving you a funny example, but, there's different types of cars, there's sports cars and luxury cars and so forth.

But if someone wants to charge a lot of money for a car, they have to have what is a very good car to charge a lot of money to rent it out. It's the same thing with attorneys. So the law firm is gonna be concerned about the way the attorneys you know, look, sound and act and meaning how they are at the, and how they think and how they fit into their culture.

And if they're like other people there, and if they have certain types of skills socially and so forth, and and some law firms, frankly, they have certain types of clients and they tend to hire attorneys that will get along with those types of clients. So a very A well respected entertainment firm is going to law.

Firm is going to have a certain type of person working there. A very well respected corporate firm is gonna have a certain type of person working there. A firm that works on cutting edge, public interest. They're all different types of people that work in different types of firms.

And but you just have to realize that [00:08:00] anytime a firm is hiring a prestigious firm is hiring someone that you really need to look sellable to that firm's clients. And and that's really one reason why the law firms care so much about your background, at least the most prestigious funds, because that they're very concerned about how you're going to look to, to their clients.

And and and people are just very snobbish about this. They will look at your law school and many times they won't hire you. But sometimes they'll look at your your background and they'll see things they don't like there, they will indicate how you may act and they will there's all sorts of things.

But you have to be very aware that the way you present yourself when you're going out to affirm and getting into the most prestigious firms, even if the firm likes you and thinks you can do the work they're always asking themselves if they think they can sell your background to clients.

And that's unfortunate. What happens is different firms develop a reputation in the market for only hiring certain types of people from certain with certain educational pedigrees, with certain personalities, with certain types of backgrounds. And and they typically will stick to that [00:09:00] because it's important to their how they sell their services to their clients.

And it's really the, one of the most important functions. And it's something that a lot of people don't understand. And I bring it up because you have to realize that that if your background does not look sellable to one of the firm's clients, even though you may be able to do the work and so forth, that's not necessarily something that they're going to be interested in.

And I talk a lot about this in other different types of things and articles and so forth that I've written, but you have to keep in mind that what's on your resume really has to make it look like you'll have no problem working for whatever type of client and and that you'll be able to be marketed to that client.

This is actually a very important one as well. I've written a lot of articles about this particular question but this is, can you do the job the way we want it done and doing the job means if you have certain types of skills in a D in a certain type of practice areas, you have to be able to do the job the way that the law firm wants it done.

If you're inviting in for an interview in almost all cases[00:10:00] the law firm believes you can do the job. They're not sure, but they're pretty sure they've read your resume. They've read where you work. They've looked at your academics and they believe if they bring you in that you can do the work.

And they're reaching that conclusion based on a high number of factors that. I'm not gonna get too far into, but if you are a corporate mergers and acquisition attorney, and you're working at a mid-size law firm and you apply to a large law firm to law firm even though you're working, moving to a large law firm from mid-size law firm, if you have experience doing similar types of work, they're probably gonna believe that you can do the job.

They're gonna ask you some questions about that. They may reject you saying that, we spoke to you and didn't think you can do the job, but usually or don't have the right experience. Usually it's another reason. Law firms will bring in people all the time that don't have the exact type of experience that they need and believe that they can be trained.

And if they believe you can do the job your resume almost always will say what you've done before. And in most instances, especially with prestigious law [00:11:00] firms whatever law firm you're coming from, you'll be a, you will have been a, will be a competitor sorts to the law firm.

We're working with. It may be in another region. That's not necessarily directly competitive, but it's competitor and that law firm they'll and they'll look at your experience and they'll pretty much have a good understanding that you can do the sort of work that they do. One thing I did wanna just bring up very briefly if you are one of my candidates I sent out an article yesterday talking about this, but if you're working if your resume talks about the fact that you're doing three or four different things even though you may be an M and a attorney, you decide you wanna put on there, that you worked on some litigation cases and did a trademark or two that's not going to help you.

You have to look. You wanna do the job and anytime you're applying for a job doing something specific. And if you list other things that you have experienced and that actually works against you. So it's just an important component to understand most law firms you're interviewing with will be very familiar [00:12:00] with the sort of work that you've been doing based on your resume and reasonably confident from a technical standpoint that you can do the work.

They're not always sure, but they're usually reasonably confident that you can. The reason they can't be sure is because they don't know exactly why you're looking for a position. It's very interesting. One of the things that happens when attorneys are wor looking at firms laterally, or looking in other parts of the country and so forth, that where they may not be from is if you're looking for a position in the market where you're currently working, law firms are actually very suspicious.

You're much less likely to get interviews in your home market many times than if you were moving to a market where you grew up or where you went to school or where you have contacts. Because anytime you're looking in the, in a certain market where you're currently working, there's a presumption and it's not always correct.

And as a matter of fact, I would say a good portion of the time it's false, but the presumption is. You're looking for a job because you're having problems doing the work where you're at and [00:13:00] your work is not being well received. That's not always the case, of course, but that's presumption when you're looking in other markets and you're saying, I want to go home to be closer to my parents or my spouse's parents, or I then then that presumption doesn't necessarily exist and you're much, actually much more likely to get interviews.

But law firms are always suspicious when you're looking laterally. You can have excellent paper qualifications, but you may not have an aptitude for practicing law. There's all sorts of people each year. What happens is all these people come out of these top 10 law schools. And at every top, from every top 10 law school, it doesn't really matter which one it is.

There's always a handful of people that, that last less than six months. And typically it's because they're having problems adapting to a work environment, doing the work. And some people will last longer than others, but a lot of times people will jump around for years as they're not doing good work or they have, sometimes it's a work ethic issue.

Other times it's an inability to understand technical details or think in a certain way. And when that happens people will [00:14:00] often jump around quite a bit. Some, a lot of people fix it and become excellent attorneys, other people don't. But as I said earlier law firms do like attorneys who are relocating to other markets often where they grew up or because they're less suspicious about why they're looking for new positions and it looks more like they can probably do the job, but there are a lot of attorneys That just aren't that great practicing law and the biggest way that they can tell that is if you're moving around to different jobs a lot, or looking to go to a firm that maybe not as good as where you're working and where they're not gonna be able to give you as much money or experience.

There's all sorts of ways that they're picking up on that. But if you're interviewing with firms the law firms are often gonna ask you a lot of questions to understand if you can do the job they'll probe for troublesome areas, many times that maybe reflect in your ability to do the work last questions like however you reviews Ben.

And typically everyone will say fine or good. And but they can tell based on how you react. Sometimes people like look shocked and scared other times they they they will say, talk about how great they [00:15:00] were and how they were the best or told this, and given the highest bonus or going the most hours.

And other times they, they will you know that anyway, this is one of the ways they do it. And if you come across as very confident, then they will be very happy. If you talk about how busy you are. That's a very good thing as well. So every law firm that I've ever worked in, there've been people.

That are always extremely busy that everybody's giving work to. And then there are people that are not busy and and you could be in a law firm where everyone's billing 2,500 hours a year, and there's people in there billing a thousand hours. And so the attorneys are the busiest typically are the ones given the most work.

Now there are law firms that get very slow and because of a bunch of cases settling at one time or because of the economy and corporate can get various partners, groups of partners leaving. But if a law firm doesn't believe you're that busy then they're not gonna like that. And law firms typically don't give work to people that aren't doing good work.

And if you do good work, people are gonna seek you out and ask you to do more work. [00:16:00] Even if it's non billable work. Many times they'll ask you to do different sorts of things. And if there you're problematic that will often be assigned by not being busy that you're not doing a good work.

And that may, that means that you can't do the job. So they're always filtering for that. They'll also ask. The type of work you're doing. If you're doing work above your class level, they can tell how well you're doing based on that. So if you talk about that you've been given a lot of very sophisticated work that you're working with the most important partners in the firm or the people that have the most business and so forth and working on the most important cases or being given responsibility very early in your career that's a very good sign and that's also a sign that you probably could do the work.

And one, one thing that I would say when you, when a law firm's asking these sorts of questions is one, it's very important to talk with a lot of enthusiasm. So when you show you have a lot of interest in the subject matter and the work that you're doing, and you talk with a lot of enthusiasm, the law firm likes that because that's exactly what clients want too.

And [00:17:00] what partners want a partner that's committed to a practice area and has been doing that their whole career loves it when younger people are, beneath of are coming up through the ranks and love what they do. And have a lot of enthusiasm and enthusiasm is majorly important.

And people that have that enthusiasm can all do the job. I remember every offer that I ever got, I was able to go in and be very interested in the work and. But why, I think there's a lot of these things that I've ever certainly done wrong, but being very interested in the work is huge.

Cuz a lot of people aren't. And then the other thing is are you hiding anything? A lot of times law firms can tell if you're nervous or hiding something. If you're not making eye contact, if you seem defensive about various questions, how you, how your body language ask some response to questions, your faces and so forth.

And they will look for that very closely. They'll also sometimes, listen or watch you to see if you're having it may. A lot of times people will, I've seen several people move firms cause of family problems or substance abuse issues, or [00:18:00] just difficulty getting along with different people.

And if you have those sorts of issues law firms will often be able to pick up on them. And so they wanna make sure that's the, not the case. I talk a lot about this, but I've seen a lot of people go out on interviews and then they meet for drinks and they always have too many drinks and law firms typically, if you have three, as opposed to, that can make a pretty big difference a lot of times.

And and the law firm may think that be a problem in the future. I've seen things fall through there. And then partners is just another one. And I don't want to talk too much about this, but partners move firms all the time. Most of the time they move because their business is not materializing and they're not getting as enough work.

And the law firm can't afford to pay them based on the amount of work that they're bringing in. So they move to a new firm and they try to get a better platform and hope that that the new firm will catch on. So a lot of times they're moving around every few years. It's not always the case. A lot of times partners will move around every few years just because the law firms, they go to aren't paying 'em enough money and they, or they agree to pay [00:19:00] them one thing and don't, but that's another thing that they're looking for many times you have to be very careful of giving away any sort of information that you may have been fired from the position or having trouble with the work or trouble with colleagues or something happened.

That now it's not to say that law firms won't realize that based on if you're unemployed or if there's if you seem overly eager to get into a firm or something along those lines, they will have an understanding of what's going on. But most law firms will find you very risky if that's going on.

So you have to. Either change the, not talk about it so directly, or figure out a way to change the subject in a way that doesn't look like you're changing the subject, or you have to be honest about maybe some problems in the firm that made it difficult for them to keep you on or something along those lines.

And if you're having problems in your existing job most firms will listen to your explanation. And a lot of them, if they like you, for other reasons will still [00:20:00] hire you, but keep in mind that anybody that has a this sort of risk in the background, it can hurt you. And most cases, they have a lot of applicants for the same position.

So they're really trying to hire people that aren't gonna be a problem as opposed to those that are. And but they do all the time. Law firms certainly make mistakes. But again, the most fundamental aspect is being able to do the job and law firms will find, will do all sorts of things to see if you can do the job now, the second part is, can you do the job the way we want it done?

And so lots of people have the technical capability to do work. Litigators are often, there's lots of very good writers that are litigators. There's lots of very good. Attorneys that are good at going into court. There are lots of very good corporate attorneys. And and so a law firm certainly wants to know that you can do the work the way they want it done and that or do the work that they have, but they wanna know if you can do the work in the particular way they want it done and that's even more important.

Each law firm has a lot of different requirements for the way they want work done. Many people [00:21:00] move between firms a lot because they just don't have those disabilities. So one of the most important components is being able to work with people the way the firm needs 'em to.

I remember there was I don't know if they still do this, a excellent firm, Paul Hastings used to have this system where all the junior associates and mid-level and senior associates and council would all kind of work with one partner on that person's cases and and stick with them.

And I, I don't mean this is what they did when they, the group moved over to the firm I was at. But and I was told that was their system at the, at Paul hast, but they would work this way and and it was a good system for them and they would work together. They would eat dinner together.

And each night I used to work very late. I would see them all leave the office around 10:00 PM. When the woman partner went home, they would all follow her out and often leave at the same time, which was nice to watch. But at the same time they would also come in on Sundays and around noon and all work till seven.

And so they, this is how they worked together as a group. And that was Probably something they've been doing together for a long time, they had this [00:22:00] routine. And and I'm sure that that if someone, they were to hire someone new to work with them they would do the same thing. They would expect the other attorney to come in on Sundays at noon and work with them and then stay late at night during the week and work with 'em the same way.

And this is how the job was done. Other firms, of course don't want you to work remotely. They want you to be in the office or they want you to be in the office in certain days. So they expect you to do certain things. And and a lot of law firms require a lot of face time from their attorneys and they're not interested in the working from home.

That's the way they want the work done. And if you have issues with this the attorney may not be able to way work, work the way the law firm wants it done. Now, you don't know why that is. It doesn't have to concern you. You don't have to be concerned that they're bad people for having or expecting FaceTime.

That's just the way they want the work done and you have to do it. Other law firms will require an extraordinary level of commitment and a an unquestioned level of commitment. A lot of firms will when there's important matters will require superhuman hours. [00:23:00] And and this is the norm.

These aren't it's not okay to say I'm not gonna work on, Saturday during a case going to trial, even if everyone else and your team is working. I was at a firm once and I went in on the 4th of July. And almost the entire firm was there. I couldn't believe it. It was the 4th of July was during the week, but it was loony.

And then anyway, but that this is how some law firms are and and and you need to do your job in a certain way to succeed. And every law firm is different. Every law firm has different expectations for how they want you to work. I when I was clerking in a city, I remember all the attorneys and a couple local firms used to go out golfing every Wednesday.

And they would have local golf matches. That was the way they did the work. It's just, it just depends. Or they would do it on Tuesdays and Thursdays but different law firms want the work done different ways. Some law firms will overburden their attorneys with work. That seems completely unnecessary.

They it could be to increase the bills. It could just be because the client demands that level of thoroughness and is willing to pay for it. [00:24:00] But regardless, you don't have to agree with it. It's just how it works. And and you're still required to do the work that way. And the law firm wants, done that way.

Now, if you go into interviews and you start talking about things like I want, what is it what you ask about work, life balance, and there really isn't work life balance. They're gonna conclude very quickly that you don't, aren't gonna be able to do work the way they want it done. If you start questioning and talking about how your firm's giving you busy work and they give a lot of busy work, then they're not gonna like that.

You, that if you start talking about. That you like that you get more done at home because there's fear interruptions. And if they're the kind of firm they expect you to be in the office, they're not gonna like that. So all these things can hurt you a lot of a lot, and you need to be very careful in interviews of giving away clues that you may not be able to do the work they want it done.

Once you get an understanding of what they want and law firms have to be very risk averse. They're bringing in attorneys that if they don't work out will have complaints and be unhappy. They[00:25:00] they have huge clients that they're introducing you to the client is gonna pay money to get you up to speed and will often be billed for that.

The client's going to have wonder what happens if people are leaving the partners that the law firm is hiring you for are going to want certain type of people and frankly most law firms large law firms are hiring cautious, bookish types, pleasant personalities, who really aren't that aggressive.

Some of those people become, grow into being great partners that are aggressive later, but they want people to do the work. And that's just how it is. And and and they want people to do the work in a way that's painless for them. And in contrast some firms that are newer that are trying to make a name for themselves will behave in a different matter entirely.

These, they may hire different types of attorneys that are inclined to take risk for people that other firms wouldn't hire because of their personalities and demands and so forth. And that will happen often boutique and startup firms. And that may be how they want the work done.

A lot of attorneys will come from firms where they may have learned bad [00:26:00] habits. And then I can no longer do work the way the firm wants it done either. So most major law firms this is just a major rule in how law firms work when they hire people. Most of them will never hire people at least with a few exceptions out of the government or from in-house people that are coming from the government often do not work the same way.

They don't have the same demands for that you have in a, an, a billable hour environment and where there's a lot of it is just not the case. Same thing for a lot of in-house physicians, where many times the attorneys are actually experts in giving legal work to others, but not necessarily doing it themselves.

And solo practitioners that may learn back that habit. So small law firms and so forth. So what happens is law firms will always look at your background and they'll try to get a sense of, does this person have the will this person do the work we want it done. And that's one of the reasons why, if you go in house or you go into the government or you start your own firm, and you're gonna have a very hard time [00:27:00] ever getting into a major law firm.

And I, it's very rare that someone goes from in-house to a major law firm. It's very rare that someone moves from the government to a major law firm. And they may maybe as a us attorney getting a white collar job that they're well known on their market, but it's just certain ways of working.

And because you pick up many times bad habits and oftentimes it just doesn't work out. So it can be very difficult for attorneys from non-law firm environments to even get into the door. I've had in-house attorneys working in our company for years. And I hired years ago, a in-house attorney that had gone to a top law school and was one of the top two or three people in his class.

And and he had spent his career pretty much doing which wasn't a long career at that point. Just living in a regular, not a great area of Los Angeles in the valley but the doing litigation and other work and charging $500 for this matter and $1,100 15 for that matter and so forth.

And he practiced law this way because his small clients were willing to pay. Were unwilling to pay hourly rates for his work. [00:28:00] And because the way he learned to practice law, teaching himself, his objective came to cut corners, and this is what he taught himself and get everything done as quickly as possible.

And he was good at what he did, but he never learned to work on matters with any level of fairness, completeness that would demand to, by a firm of him. He would as I worked with him, he would say, this is stupid. Why would you write this brief? And why would you do this when you can just fill out this general form?

And and he, I learned he'd never have the ability to do the work in a way I wanted at to, and because he learned to practice way that relied in shortcuts and cutting corners. And it's not a bad thing that he learned that I'm not criticizing him. But that was how he had to learn to survive and make as much money when he was a solo practitioner doing work the way he was doing it.

So most of the issues regarding how work is done revolve around whether you're willing to follow directions, play by the rules of a given law firm and honestly suppress your ego for the benefit of the team. So anytime an attorney starts talking about their needs their [00:29:00] requirements salary competing firm the limits for what, the type of work they'll do, the the their requirements and so forth.

The law firm interviewing the attorney. Immediately will decide that this whether or not the sort of attitude benefits now, it can be good for the attorney to be calculating and caring about money. And and the law firm can use that to their advantage because it may make the person work harder.

And and but at the same time it often most often does. So law firms will look at it that way. They will really avoid people who are unwilling to work the way they want them to. They typically want things done a certain way. They will pay for that. And if you're unwilling to do that then you're gonna have a very hard time keeping a job there and getting hired.

Law firms will always talk to people and if they get a sense when they're talking to them, that the attorney is more focused on what the law firm can do for them, opposed to what they can do with the law, for the law firm it's sign that the attorney will probably not be able to do the work and the way they need it done.

And especially if they come from a different environment then that [00:30:00] person also needs to be able to convince the law firm. I was working with an attorney not too long ago that had incredible qualifications. She had PhD in electrical engineering, which is very rare for attorneys to have that.

And and she'd gone to a great law school. She'd gone to a Ivy league law school. It might have even at Stanford, I don't know if that's considered Ivy believe and she was practicing, it was probably one of the top two or three best law firms in the country. She was six years out of law school and wanted to join a competitive firm, but work at a reduced salary of only 1800 hours a year.

And every firm that she was interested in was extremely interested in her. There was every firm that she applied to definitely wanted to interview her and and pretty much hire her site and scene. But but she wanted she wanted to work reduced hours. So she wanted to work on the 1800 hours a year, which is not unusual for a patent attorney.

She wanted her weekends and time to go to the gym. And she said she wanted to watch Netflix at night. She had no desire to be partner and she told me that and she told very good firm that she was [00:31:00] interviewing with that and the law firm because they wanted her so badly and they needed someone like that for clients.

They had a bunch of special meetings and and internal discussions about it. And and they decided that the risk of hiring her outweighed the rewards because they just said they didn't wanna have anyone in their firm that didn't desire to get ahead and thought they were above the expectations of everyone else.

I said, it's not worth it. We want everyone at a level competing to be partner working hard, that she would've done more harm than good to the firm. And and what they were saying of course is that she wouldn't do the work and the way they wanted it done. Law firms are probing. They're asking questions.

They're trying to understand if if your personality and the way you do work is really going to be the way they want things done. The law firm is going to have certain standards and they may overwork their files. That's just how they operate. Other law firms made you the opposite.

The law firm will really wanna see if you're up to doing things that way. They'll try to see if you're malleable and if they believe that they can, you [00:32:00] will accept instruction, follow directions by their rules and do things the way that they want it done. That's just a cautionary tale.

A lot of people, very good attorneys do not get offers because they go into interviews and act like they won't do the work and the way they want it. There's other things that kind of come across many times on the resumes that give that impression. And I don't want to get too far into it, but anytime you have things on your resume that make you look very entrepreneurial, that can scare them, it can scare them when you put a bunch of it's very common these days.

And it's nice that people are so enthusiastic about this. I'm not criticizing it, but people will often do a lot of pro bono work and they'll have a whole introductory session section about their inter all the pro bono work they're doing at this major firm and then a few lines about whatever they've done.

That's not pro bono and which is odd because they're applying for jobs doing the work. That's not pro bono. So I but and that those [00:33:00] resumes Don't get interviews and the people that have them are often very angry. And the reason is that they're giving the impression to the law firms.

They're applying to that. They're not gonna do the job and the way they want it done. So you need to be very aware that anything you put on your resume needs to show that you have, that you're the kind of person that will be able to work in the law firm, the way they want the work done. This is one of my favorites.

Do you want the job? Most attorneys often only get one offer. I don't know why that is. I have candidates get multiple offers all the time, but most people only get one offer and then take that offer. They will often get lots of interviews, but only one offer. And the offers that they get are typically the jobs that they want the most.

And it's very interesting to me too. It's I used to take very active role with my candidates when I was when I do recruit full time. But when I was if I were talking to candidates every day and I would [00:34:00] always talk to them about certain firms that I thought should be their first choice and why they were good for them.

And and then if the candidates got offers at those firms, that would be the job that they wanted the most and they would almost always get it. And it's and it's a, it's a secret which I hope you remember what I just said. If you go into an interview and you psych yourself up and you want the job the odds are that you will have a much better shot of getting the job than anybody else.

We'd like people that like us. And if you really want something and you're psyched up for it, you behave differently. Your body language is different, your your the way you make everything's different. And and you're ready when you go into the interview and people are excited. I always have everyone that works in with our company, in-depth questionnaires to discuss your experience and long term aspirations.

A lot of attorneys have long term goals that say things like they want to go in house or work for the government start a business and things like that. But when attorneys write down that they have these sorts of goals that don't involve working in a law firm I know that the [00:35:00] attorney is often going to have issues, getting a job.

They may not they may get a job but they probably will not get the best job. And that's fine. You're welcome to wanna do other things. No, one's saying that a law firm is someplace where everyone should work forever, but if you are lateraling to other firms or trying to move to a better firm or trying to move to a peer firm most law firms are gonna hire the people that really want to work.

And and and almost very rarely do people are people able to get jobs that they don't want now? It is funny. I. There are some attorneys that are so sharp and such persua, so persuasive and so good in person that they're able to even when they don't wanna do a job, go in and get it.

They often are from New York which I think makes very strong interviewers for some reason. But but again, it's very rare. If you don't want, if you don't want the job, it's often gonna show it's just that relevant. But I guess when I was younger, my father was with CIA one time, he was complaining to his boss about how he would like somebody he was supposed to be befriending and just [00:36:00] complaining about his job.

And he said, the guy said to him don't think it, or you will show it. And if you don't want a job, then your mannerisms the way you answer questions and other verbal, and non-verbal fine, will give you away. People will not like you. And they will not hire you when they see those sorts of characteristics.

So you need do it in that, in those sort of response, you need to believe that you really want the job and you need to whatever it is you do. Sometimes even just saying to yourself, I really want this job. I really want this job. I really want this job before you go into an interview can be very helpful.

This is an attorney I was working with not too long ago, who was at went to a top three law school finished at the top of his class was a former college athlete. Very good practice area. Top New York firm has been there for three years. He wants to be a law professor going house. He's gotten about 15 interviews.

So you can imagine people love former college athletes that have gone to really good schools and worked to good firms. And he's done screen interviews but he hasn't even gotten a full round [00:37:00] of interviews. Every screening interview he's failed and people meaning he hasn't gotten asked back after a screen interview and he wants to do something else and and it comes across in the interviews.

He walks into the firms and he's just doesn't have the kind of enthusiasm that would be expected. And the extent he does it, it comes across as manufactured and law firms can pick that up. I've worked with lots of parents. Who've taken time off to raise their children. And and as they've then at some point they decide they wanna go back to work, which is perfectly fine, but they really don't wanna go back to work.

They wanna St stay with their children and they wanna and they're much happier. And then when they were practicing law, so they go out and interview, but they don't want the job, which I understand I'm not being critical of that. And and so then they have a hard time getting jobs.

They go out and interview and they often will interview numerous law firms and just not get the job. The law firms will pick up on it. And and because there's just not a level of enthusiasm for it. And law firms, by the way, AB absolutely wanna hire.

[00:38:00] Mothers and and all sorts of and they wanna give them a chance. And and when people are very enthusiastic like that, they typically do very well. But most of the time even after a couple rejections, a lot of times people will say that they just wanna stay home.

They wanted to they really didn't wanna work and it comes across in interviews. It's very common by the way for attorneys. Who've worked in very demanding law firm environments whether it's often it's New York city in the largest firms, they have experience there where they it can be very stressful.

But it could also be in any large city, whether it's Palo Alto which is a large legal market or Los Angeles or Chicago often they will after a period of unemployment or taking time off for whatever reason, or even while they're working, there will go out and interviews and not be able to impress interviewers.

They simply don't get the job because they're not interested in working in the law firm again. And despite applying to the job, they just they've had it. And and it comes across and their language and the way they they think and and the way they communicate and their and their body language.

So the firm doesn't like [00:39:00] the firm that they're interviewing with they think it's beneath them or not as prestigious. If they know that the salary's not that high they generally won't get the job. The attorney will not get the job because they don't want the job. And they they can't convince the law firm of something that's not true.

And so you need to come across as anytime you're interviewing, even if it's a law firm that you don't think you want the job at, you need to convince yourself that you want the job. Your goal is for any interview is to go out and to get the position first. And and then worry about all this stuff later.

A lot of times offers are negotiable partnership, track. It's often negotiable bonuses and all sorts of things can be negotiable. Ours even can be negotiable. Every you can negotiate a lot of stuff, especially at smaller firms in mid-size firms. But but the law firm, you just have to understand, needs to be under the impression that if you get an offer, you will take it.

We have this thing that we do at BCG. And it works where after an interview, we always follow up with a firm with a talking about how things went [00:40:00] and and how they liked you. And but one of the things we always ask, the people that are interviewing is if you got an offer there, would you take it?

And anytime we say, if the person gets an offer from you, we believe that they would take it. They're odds of getting the the job. Increased dramatically. They double, but maybe even quadruple. I don't, it's law firms wanna hire people that want them. And most law firms, a lot of 'em will hire, make offers, and the people will keep looking.

But if the law firm really feels like you want them, then they're often going to make you an offer. Even if they have better qualified candidates, because they know that people that really wanna work there are gonna be probably stay longer, do better work or harder be more committed, all sorts of things.

Would you rather hire someone who wanted the job or someone who isn't events about the job? That's just how you have to think about it. It's just, it's bad for business to, to try to hire someone who's not enthusiastic about the job. And if someone doesn't want the job, the odds are very good.

The person's going to leave and people want to be around and work with people who want their [00:41:00] job. Now, this is just another quick point. I wanna bring up. A lot of times people will get offers and they'll say, can I think about it? And then they'll think about it for a week or two weeks.

Obviously, if you're thinking about a job taking an offer for a week or two you probably don't want the job, people that do that law firms know, and it's not proven, but it almost always happens that they end up going to that law firm and then leaving for something else better later on, I can think of all of the recruiters that I've ever hired, anybody that had to think about it, or wait almost always was doing that because they were interested in another practice setting, whether it was going in house or working as a career counselor for a law school or a law firm or something along those lines.

If people think, if you think about offers then then if you have to think about often you probably don't want the job. Now, you can certainly do that if you're expecting better offers, but you have to realize that law firms really want to hire people that want the job. I I was working I worked when I was I got on a job offer once from a [00:42:00] judge and he, and and he said if I call you and make you an offer, will you accept the job?

This was in the interview. And I said, yes. And then he called me a couple days later and asked me if I'd accept the job or told me he was making an offer, would I accept? And he said, if you don't accept, I'm gonna call someone else. So I accept it, of course. Anyway, it's a long story, but the the point is that if you really want the job people will will hire you.

And and the best people really want the job and you need to be able to convince the employer that you want the job. And and the law firm will be able to tell easily. There's a little story that my mom used to tell me When I was younger and it was we went to look at puppies or something.

I don't how old I was probably seven or eight. I dunno, young. And and the puppy that I chose was the one that ran up to me and was very nice. It was the run of the litter and the other ones I didn't choose. And she said, you always chose that you chose the puppy that liked the most. And so that's how employers are too, that someone really seems enthusiastic and really appreciates us and wants us, wants to work there.

We like them much better. The [00:43:00] next one is just, will you fit in? This is not all that important compared to the other two, but law firms do want people that will fit in. That doesn't mean that they don't like diversity. Diversity is part of fitting in. It doesn't mean that that that they are discriminate against different people of different for the most part don't.

But they want people that they feel that can be their friend and partners want people that they think they might be friends with, or that would be friends with the associates. So they're working with, and and people just, you need to be able to fit in. And they wanna hire people that are being able to get along with different types of people and so forth.

And and I think that diversity. Is important from the standpoint of building a, an environment where lots of different people are feel accepted in a group and and law firms are it doesn't really matter what your background is in terms of your diversity. I think that law firms are want people that are fitting in with their culture and that culture could be different types of things.

It could be a culture of athletes. It could be a culture of people that are bookish. [00:44:00] It could be a culture of people that are interested in social causes. There's just different types of categories. There's even law firms that seem to hire people that are very collegiate and come out of would be the types of people that would be in fraternities and sororities.

It's just it's typically that those major categories that are important. I was at one firm once where that I was very surprised to discover that every single partner in the firm and there were partners of different races and but they were Catholic. I didn't, it just seemed to be strange cuz I certainly just, and I don't know if that's just what they were and they went to church, they their kids went to Catholic schools and it was a very prestigious firm.

Now I don't know if this was coincidence or not. But a lot of the associates were as well. And that was interesting. I think that and maybe it was a coincidence, I don't know, but but it was very interesting. I other firms are composed of people that are of different religions and races and and again, that's how things work in some firms.

A lot of firms in the south are composed of, or midsize firms and are [00:45:00] composed people that are from the south. That's not, are not. From other areas of the country there's just different cultures and different parts of the country. And and a lot of times I think that the people that that when law firms get sued and when people Sue employers, a lot of times they're people that didn't fit in or felt like outsiders because that law firm's culture and and many times that what happens is people don't trust the attorney in this create problems.

Now I'll just tell you a quick example. I and just so you understand this is not necessarily along sexual orientation or racial outlet lines or anything. I was working with a woman not too long ago, that was working in a I don't a very well known, very prestigious firm in good firm in South Carolina.

And it was in a, a decent sized market there. And she was very upset because all of the, she realized when she got there, that pretty much everyone went to, had gone to the same high school and and all knew each other and lived in a certain part of the town where she didn't live. And and she was [00:46:00] single and and they were all marriage.

She felt like an outsider and no one ever included her. And I've been to school in the south and there's a, there is a different culture there. I will definitely commit, say that and she didn't fit in was very unhappy. And and and felt like an outsider now, she was the same I don't know.

 That race doesn't matter, but she was not, there was nothing different about it, but she felt very alone. She felt very. Like she couldn't fit in. And and so you need to be able to fit in wherever you go. And and you need to be able to fit in because a law firm is your tribe and there's your tribe.

They need to feel like they can trust you that you'll take sides at an issue. And you'll all be United. And these cultures that law firms have, will attract, hire and retain a certain type of individual. Now I'm the first to admit that society there's a lot of divisiveness in society.

You have Democrats and Republicans and socialists and all sorts of different types of people. But you, you generally will realize that most law firms will favor and not all of them, but depending on what part of the country they're in [00:47:00] and all sorts of things will have different types of cultures.

And you need to be aware of that. And and aware that if you go into those law firms and are very opinionated about something that can hurt you. So law firms are really off often interviewing you to see if you might be the sort of person that they could be friends with.

And they don't want you to be threatening. They don't want to feel like you're going, they want to feel like you're gonna be on the same side as them, and able to take the sides of their client. And and so you need to be careful with that stuff. That, again, that's not, none of this is a critique of anything but it is a admission that different firms have different cultures.

I don't know. I certainly would have a very difficult time in lots of different law firm cultures. And and you're going to be happier when you are able to fit in with a culture and where you're able to identify with a culture. I there's firms, like I, I remember in and I tell the story a lot, but in in the recession of I think it was either 2001.

It was, I think it was in 2001 or 2008, but there was a huge recession. And there was one [00:48:00] corporate opening in the, and it was such a bad recession that there was really only one decent senior corporate opening at a major law firm in all of Colorado. And, but even then there were, there was hardly any in the whole country.

And and we had our company was, our firm was working on a search for major firm there. And they had hundreds of people from top firms all over the country. They could have chosen. And one guy just happened to have stuff on there that he liked to snowboard and was on some snowboard.

I don't know all the snowboarding stuff. And and the firm happened to have a lot of people that like, it was, I don't know, snowboarding or ski. I think it was snowboarding. A lot of people that were into that in the corporate department. And and that's who they hired. This is cultural. It's about, the same sport and so you just, all this stuff just is how things work.

And I've seen other firms where you look at the bio and everyone's wearing a bow tie. It's just it's very funny. Now I'm not a bow tie type of guy, but certain people are just different [00:49:00] cultures at different firms. And you have to understand that you really wanna figure out what that is and if you'll be comfortable there and you won't always be cult comfortable there, but that's what another thing that law firms are looking at.

Now, another thing they're asking themselves is if they can manage you, this is hugely important. It's something that sometimes people are manageable earlier in their career and then not manageable later. Sometimes people are not manageable earlier in their career manageable later, but in order to work for anyone else you need to be manageable.

You need to be you're working for someone else. If you're working in a law firm you need to be able to take instructions. You need to be able to do what they ask you to do. You need to be respectful of authority. You even need, you need to get along with a chain of command. You just need to be manageable.

I, it's very funny to me because I even see I see partners with make millions of dollars a year meeting with clients. And and they're yes, sir. This, yes, I even they're manageable. And as they go, if they're talking to senior attorneys and their firm, they're manageable and [00:50:00] people that above them.

So I'm manageable attorneys are very common. Law firms avoid them. They do not like unmanageable attorneys. They there's all sorts of clues when they're interviewing. I'll talk to about some of those that you may not be manageable, but law firms are businesses. They're just like a, they're like a they're like a army.

They, if you have people in the army that aren't marching, when they're told to, or going in different directions, or then you have problems. And and it's like that on law firms too. So it's very difficult for law firms to manage people too, by the way, because everyone needs to show up for work.

They need to work diligently. They need to not make waves. And an unmanageable attorney is going to weaken the herd and law firms will avoid hiring them. And they're avoided they law firms. If you go into an interview and you have stuff on your resume, for example or even when you're applying and it looks like you're not manageable, law firms are going to avoid you.

And there's all sorts of things that, that, that will give away, give that away. And I can talk about that in a few minutes, but but the point is the unmanageable [00:51:00] attorney will often question the assignments will do things the way they want to, not the way they're told we'll break rules will not do what they say they're going to do will not follow directions.

And and a law firm will often get a sense about your boundaries. And if you are, if you become defensive about certain questions that they ask these are the ways that people that are in manageable give themselves away. One of the first things they always do is they talk about the need for rapid advancement.

That it's very common that I always in the history of our company and we've always had people that will work and then, every few weeks or months, or six months they'll decide that they're they need a raise or they, or whatever, and they'll pull their, their people aside or they'll complain about their bonus.

And and they, this happens on law firms all the time, and it's very upsetting to management, but a lot of times People will show up in interviews and talk about their need for rapid advancement. And and and law firms do people being ambitious and there's nothing wrong with that.

But a lot of times [00:52:00] there are certain personality types and this is one of them for the most part that can never be satisfied that are always going to want more and ask for more. And regardless of what happens and law firms know that and they can pick it up. And and all the partners are trying to do when they're hiring associates are hire people that are willing to do the work.

And and all that are doing when they hire partners are hiring partners that are willing to do the work and can be managed. And and if people feel like they're not managed, then then they're not gonna be able to manage you. They're almost always not gonna hire you law firms do not like people that, that are like this.

And it's unfortunate that you can't necessarily stick up for yourself and say these things, you can do it in the right time. And there's a whole a bunch of other stuff I could talk to you about today, about when you're trying to make partner and having a lot more, much more value than they law firm could possibly get elsewhere by either my paying someone or whether your relation clients so that you, but you need to be manageable.

Even partners need to be manageable. A lot of times people will say they're looking because they [00:53:00] only wanna do a certain type of work. And they may complain that they're not giving, being given a certain type of work. And this doesn't go over well because the law firms know that that they may need to give you other types of work in order for them to pay their bills.

So if you are hired to be a I dunno to be a white collar litigator and a law firm doesn't have enough white collar litigation and wants to give you commercial litigation. That's their right to do. If they're paying you and you should not be saying you're that necessarily always complaining.

Now, if you're not getting any white collar work, then that's a problem. But at the same time they want team players and people that are willing to do certain types of things because the law firm just needs that. And they know that if they don't have this under work, that you really wanna do that you'll leave.

That means you're probably not manageable. So I've seen attorneys bounce around looking for the exact type of work they want for years. They'll go to one firm and they won't get everything. And then they'll go to another firm. And this is just another thing where you need to be extremely careful about that.

A lot of [00:54:00] times people will talk about something that's happened, that's unfair or supervisors. And and it's just nothing to, to that you can that you can you should be doing. The presumption is always going to be that it's your fault and regardless of what happened and that you can't be managed.

Anytime and it's unfortunate, it's not because there. A lot of very bad supervisors. There's a lot of very difficult attorneys to work with. There's a lot of people that are that are very troublesome to work with, and I'm not defending this, but if you go in and you talk about supervisors and problems you had with other attorneys, the law firm will assume that you just couldn't get along with 'em or you, and somehow contributed to the problem.

It's I don't like it anymore than you do, but that's just how it works. Many times attorneys will be defensive with the interview or if you're angry. Sometimes law firms will ask questions, like why aren't you employed? And they may be, they maybe touchy. They may ask why are you applying for this job?

Why are you and anytime your reaction isn't upbeat and excited this will show them [00:55:00] that you can be difficult to manage. They just don't have time for it. And the presumption is that anytime you get hired things will get worse. And I'm again, not defending people asking inappropriate questions and doing things along those lines, but that should just be assigned to you.

And maybe that's not where you wanna work. Unmanageable attorneys will do lots of things that show that they're not likely to be part of the status quo. They'll have protest organizations many times on their resume. They may when sometimes law firms will do background checks, they'll see that they have filed all sorts of lawsuits.

They will often run your credit if it's legal everywhere, I don't know, but they often will, and they'll find things they don't like there, it shows you don't pay your bills or accept responsibility. So anything on your resumes that shows you can be in trouble in any way and that you may not be responsible, can get you disqualified people that Sue former employers sometimes they're absolutely right for doing so.

Other times they're not, it's just but if there's a presumption that you will be in trouble at your next employer and they will look out for that. A lot of times [00:56:00] people need constant reassurance and praise. So a lot of younger attorneys are like that. It's not always a good thing.

I, I think it can be a good thing because the attorney will work for work harder for praise, but it can create problems. When sometimes people will say that they're not getting enough positive feedback and it's just not, and they'll say things that will give the employer the, in the belief that they need a lot of handholding.

A lot of unmanageable attorneys will have had businesses in the past. Almost all attorneys that have had businesses. And again, I'm not criticizing this and that's the way you are. That's perfectly fine, but I would not emphasize it on my resume. Almost all attorneys that have businesses end up being very difficult to manage, cuz we're used to managing others.

And and they typically do not take a lot of management. And they, the people that are used to following order or giving orders are not always the sort of person that can follow orders. It's the same thing with, why would a law firm hire a judge? Why would they hire a someone that's been general counsel that's used to hiring attorneys.

So it's just the, it's not. It's a sign that the person's [00:57:00] likely not to be manageable. And law firms will avoid them. A lot of times anyone who's had a lot of supervisor experience is also will often resent being managed by others. Another thing. And and again, I do not bring this up happily or in any sense trying to create any issues, but many times much older attorneys that have that are being managed by younger attorneys will often resent that.

So if law firms are very careful to make sure that's not a problem and people from supervisory roles, and then the next one is a lot of times people are very impressed with their educational qualifications and have a very inflated sense of software. I've had candidates it's very funny actually, but that will go to New York and the law firm will say our firm, we put, we always like people to stay in this hotel and the person will say I wanna stay in the Harbor club or, and and that, that sort of thing will rub people the wrong way especially when and and a lot of times very top law schools that people go to people believe [00:58:00] that because they went to Yale or Harvard or.

A very good law school that it gives them more power over their employers and therefore they're less, they can get other sorts of jobs and they expect such special treatment and boy be managed or smarter than the people they're working for, which may be true. But it can hurt you when you're trying to get a job.

And then again, the older attorneys that go to law school later in life will often resent being managed by younger people. Not always. I I see a lot of people come outta law school in their thirties, forties even fifties and jobs with top law firms and often do exceptionally well there.

So it's not always the case, but there has to be a lot of enthusiasm. A lot of times people will come out of very wealthy backgrounds and and and have money and and oftentimes they can also be very difficult to manage but not all, always the case. And then people that have moved around a lot they often have done so because they're difficult to manage and and the attorneys that are put attorneys easy to manage, they will often stay in one place as long as they can and endure the ups and downs that go with [00:59:00] working in one place.

And this is one of the things that I've noticed is is, and I talk about this all the time. I was talking to a group of attorneys. A week ago. And and I, we, I was discussing how when they hire people the number one thing they should be looking for is how long the person was at their last job, because everything falls into place.

If someone's met their Josh job a long time, the odds are they're gonna stay the next place a long time. And and so that, that's a very important thing. And someone that stays at their last job a long time also likely can be managed. This is one of the biggest problems that associates and partners have is the build to be managed.

And and law firms are looking for that the better ones care about it a lot. And and it's important. And this is the next one. And there's after this won't be as long and then next one's fairly short, but will you do the job long term? The people that have the most stability and past employers typically are going to Do the same thing at their next employer.

It's very rare for someone to be at a job for three or four years and go to their next job and only stays six months. In [01:00:00] fact the longer someone stays at a job the longer they're likely to stay at their next job almost every single time I've hired someone that's been at their last position for 10 years or 20 years.

They stay at the next position just as long. It's a very important thing, and there's just a lot of people that make things work wherever they go. It's a, the reason this is such so important is because there's so many reasons that people can dislike any job. They can dislike their job because they because of the people, they can dislike it because of the pay.

They can maybe not do good work. They, but when you, when someone's able to stick around the long term at a job, what that shows is it shows that that they can be managed. It shows that that they're probably doing that. They can do the job. They're probably doing very good work. It shows that they can get along with a culture of the organization that they're working with.

It shows their psychological stability. It's it shows that they probably do very good work all sorts of things. And it's very important. If people believe you, you are gonna stick around and do the job long term, and you're committ. Then they're gonna like that. [01:01:00] And if you're moving around a lot then it's an indicator that there might be something wrong and you're gonna be at risk of leaving wherever you go.

Now there are exceptions to this and there's a lot of them. And and my job is to place people. I'll just tell you that if you are moving firms, you can move geographically to a pure firm or a firm that's not as good, and that's not really as suspected a bad thing. But most of the time, if you're moving to a better firm where you're gonna get better experience and better work, and you're improving yourself law firms like that.

But if you are and even by the way, you could start out at a very small firm or do a mid-size firm, a larger firm than an even more prestigious firm than a larger firm. That's great. But if you're not, if they're if it looks like you're moving because there's problems with your work or getting along, then that's a problem.

And law firms only function when everybody sees themselves in their career at the place for a long at the law firm for a long time and wants to be there. The entire hiring process is geared towards hiring people who wanna stay at firms for the longest period of time. And if you appear flaky and non-committal and that you may [01:02:00] not be the type of person that would stick around that you have other plans or there's other things you would like to do.

Then the law firm will pick this up and more likely not hire you Turners are committed and going to last, put their game faces on conveyed deep desire to want the jobs they're interviewing for, and the likelihood they'll stick around. When they go in they typically research the firm and and know all about them.

They will often ask very good questions. They're enthusiastic. They it seems important to them and they appear ready to work. If you have goals and objectives that have nothing to do with working a law firm, then the law firm, isn't going to believe that you really wanna work there long term.

And it's a dumb mistake. A lot of people make you if a law firm if you're talking about your legal job and then all of a sudden something else comes up and your entire demeanor changes and you become very enthusiastic about something, not legal or law related, the law firm will pick up that you don't wanna do that.

Or if you have a really good understanding of something of another [01:03:00] practice setting or what it's like working in house or a certain company or something people will then, and you beam up and suddenly have a lot of information, people will include that you may not wanna do the job long term. And you have to have good reasons for looking for a position as well.

And they need to look like you're serious. And if the law firm that doesn't believe that you're looking for jobs for the right reasons they're often not gonna be interested in you. And and you have to really come across as interested. Your, there has to be some sort of consistency to your resume.

I talk a lot about this and it's very important, but a lot of times people's resumes will, they will move around in different practice areas or different practice settings. And that doesn't look like you're gonna stick around for the long term, or they will talk about. Different things on their resume that have to do with different practice areas.

And that makes it look like they're not gonna do the long job long term. So the people that get hired and look like they're gonna do the job long term the best resumes will have a very strong focus on their [01:04:00] practice area. And and the past experience will all be very strongly focused.

And if it's not, then they won't look like they're doing the job long term. Every person that gets hired at the best firms they, their resume is focused. It's not it doesn't talk about all sorts of conflicting practice areas. It doesn't say that the person did

real estate and litigation. It doesn't talk about commercial litigation and insurance defense. It doesn't talk about trademark law and whatever. It doesn't matter, but it's just it that you have to look focused. Otherwise the law, firm's not gonna think you're committed to your practice here, and you're gonna stick around.

A lot of times people have had problems in their last positions. And if they believe that they'll believe that you may not stick around. Anytime you switch practice areas people don't like that unless you've been doing your new practice area a long time.

I've seen very few resumes that have any form of activity that where the person maybe started out in one practice area and switched to another I don't know why it is, but very few people do that.

I don't have a problem with it. I don't think [01:05:00] if you're doing insurance defense and you wanna do commercial litigation, if you're doing commercial litigation, you wanna do insurance defense. You're welcome to do those things. And they may be more interesting to you, but you do have to have some consistency.

Who would you hire? Would you hire someone that wanted to do anytime you hire someone that really wants to be somewhere else or do something else, that's what they'll do. So someone that's very interested in doing something else, which if they went in house, that's probably what they were interested in. If they went to a non-law firm environment, if they took a sabbatical, if they anything those things will convince the law firm that you probably don't wanna do it long term.

Now that doesn't mean that a law firm is not gonna hire you to work there long term or hire you. But most of them will be very suspect to that and will hire people over you. If they don't have that kind of thing on their resume.

Law firms are just not interested in this because they know that the law firm is likely to leave the law firm environment again. So if you're at a law firm and you leave and you go in house if you leave and you go into the government, if you leave and you go into public interest, if you leave and you go start a business, if [01:06:00] you leave and you start a solo practice, you believe, and you do something in public interest, and then you wanna come back.

Most of the time, the law firm will very quickly realize that you're unlikely to stick around when you come back and they know you won't do the job long term now many times if you're interviewing with a, if you relate off from a major law firm and you're interviewing, or you're just for whatever reason, interviewing in a firm that's much smaller and much less prestigious or pays a lot less the law firm will believe that.

And maybe the economy's bad, the law firm will believe that you won't stick around and do the job long term. Every time I've seen an attorney take a position and affirm where they could have done better and a better economy, they always leave later. And those law firms make a big mistake, many times hiring those attorneys because those attorneys then will proceed to talk about how they're not being paid as much as their previous job, how I'm happy they are.

They'll poison everyone around them. And it's not good unless you have really good reasons for that. Attorneys will often do this during recessions or after getting fired and when they're, when the chips are down and and they will get hired, [01:07:00] but very rarely will they stick around and they will usually undermine people on their way, undermine the firm on the way out people that want reduced our positions.

I don't have a problem with that. And frankly it's probably a very healthy thing for a lot of attorneys, but people that take those positions often are not fully engaged. And so the law firm would rather hire someone that is fully engaged. Now, this is not always case it can benefit the firm to have people working reduced hours positions, but if a law firm believes you're not gonna be fully engaged then then or stick around long term, then they may they may, if they're smart, they will, those people usually end up leaving.

I place people in reduced hour positions all the time. But usually there's some, they become not always, but unhappy that the law firm's still given a lot extra work and so forth. If you seem Morely concerned with money which a lot of people are and that's perfectly fine. But if you ask a lot about money and you talk about how you're interviewing cuz of money they may avoid you.

And and if you don't kinda look at and address the part, they'll often [01:08:00] believe you won't do the job long term and it, and there's just A lot that goes into that, but you have to convince them a lot of times people will apply it to firms. And I do recommend this by the way, I recommend that most attorneys apply to as many markets as you possibly would be willing to work.

So drastically increase your speed and a good job, but it's very common for attorneys that don't have connections to an area to apply there. So they'll apply to firms in in small towns or when they're working in a big market and and law firms will look at their believe that if they do take the job, they'll probably come to that market and not end abstain.

So they will not believe you'll do the job long term. That's one reason why if you don't have any connection to a market and you apply, if you're in Los Angeles and you apply to, to work in some rural area of California, we have no connections, the law firm's gonna know that you're very unlikely to stay if they hire you.

And and they're always looking for people that have some sort of connection to the market and that's less so the case in markets like New York and [01:09:00] Los Angeles and Houston, and some other Austin places where a lot of people wanna live and work, but for the most part it is true. And so Fresno, San Antonio different sorts of places, grand rapids, which I think is a very nice single market and someplace I recommend.

But the same time, a lot of the people are worried that the people take get interviews there. They may not stay very long. And in most cases the firm is correct that when people do get jobs there they won't stay. It's very common. And Detroit, for example when the firms are hiring people, they really do wanna hire people that are.

Have some sort of connection there because because that's just where they, how they have the most success hiring laterally. And they need to train you and they need to make sure you're part of a team. And and if you're not part of the Mar part of that they're likely to stick, stay around for the long term.

They need to nurture people that are going to stay there. They love it by the way when you move to an area and you buy a house and you make other commitments and join organizations because that gives them the belief that you're likely to stay there long term. One of the smartest things you can do when you're interviewing [01:10:00] other cities is talk about how you've been looking at homes there and you love it, and you would love to make an offer in this one house.

You'll see what happens. And that makes them feel like you're gonna stay in the market and try to do whatever you can to make it work. So these are the the different things that the law firms are looking for. I don't want to get too talk about it too much more. But you, you do need to think about all these things when you're looking for a position and and will, you'll do much better.

I'll take a quick break just for a minute or two and come back and then I'll answer questions about this webinar or any questions you may have about your career.

Let's see here. Wow. Lot of questions. Thank you for all the questions everyone's asked, these are great questions. So let me start with...

Here's a good question. It's about coming out of law school after a military career. So this is a great question and I wanted to bring it up. I'm actually happy to see this one because I see resumes from people from the military all the time, and there's a certain format that they always, that they're, I guess you're taught how to do it in the military that I don't [01:11:00] know why, but the resumes always have a certain type of format.

And it is to some extent can be difficult, especially people coming directly from the military out of law school for them to get positions. And I don't know why that is. It's not that there's anything wrong with being the military. I think a lot of it has to do with the, how maybe the thinking is, or the expectations or the lack of creativity.

I don't know. Why it is, but it can be very difficult. What I would recommend when you're coming out of the military is a lot of people are very impressed with different things that they did in the military. And and there are a lot of very good firms that, that wanna hire from the military.

 One of them is give and done, which is an exceptional law firm. It's one of the top firms in the country. They like to hire people outta the military, but the way you phrase the work that you've done you don't wanna do so in a way that is where you're talking too much about it.

You need to just if you're in the military, you can say you're an officer or whatever, maybe, but not put a lot of detail because the detail of what you did in the [01:12:00] military is often going to be inconsistent with the type of work that the law firm is doing. And and keep in mind that the people that are seeing this are not necessarily from the military.

They react in a way that may not that where they just don't understand it. And and it doesn't, they don't like it. Some of the most problematic resumes, I would say as a general rule, the most problematic resumes are the ones of people that are in the military. And the ones that do the best of people that were in the military are the ones that have the least amount of detail about whatever they did in the military.

And I think there's a bunch of problems with the way society works. And so what that means is instead of having a lot of excitement for the fact that you were serving your country and so forth a lot of people that are reviewing military resumes I think are very aren't very don't like it, they don't like the military for, I, again, I don't wanna get involved in politics here, but.

I remember when I was applying. And it was funny when I was in applying for ROTC stuff in I was applying for an [01:13:00] ROTC scholarship when I was in high school at a couple of the schools that had ROTC programs. And and I couldn't get a teachers to write a recommendation for me because they didn't believe in the military.

I was like, what the hell is going on? And and I didn't understand kind of the way people thought about politics and so forth back then. But the point is that you need to be very careful. So not a lot of detail about military stuff, if you're coming out of the military, just because what ends up happening a lot of times is it can it would it can be can have the opposite effect, and even when it doesn't have the opposite effect it, you, the fact that you're in the military might have the opposite effect tenant, but even when that particular thing doesn't have the opposite effect, the other thing that can happen is people will look at the way you phrase your experience.

And a lot of times people will have these long resumes that have all this detail about what they did in the in the in the in the military and people don't like that. Okay. But yeah, military stuff is very hard. I it's too bad that okay. Should you be blunt interviews and say, you're willing to do the work are manageable manageable catalog the people well and adjust the style of work needed.

[01:14:00] No. So all this stuff you can, you need to communicate in a way that's very direct, so it's, and you don't have to You, you don't have to say these things. A lot of times, anyone that's ever told me that they were honest is, are typically the people that end up not being honest.

So anyone that's ever told me I can trust them or people, the people I can't trust anyone that's ever told me. They're working really hard. That's not always the case with that, but sometimes people will be the opposite of what they portray themselves at. Saying you're willing to do the work and are manageable.

You, you can connote things like, or you can communicate things like that by being very enthusiastic and say, you're looking to work with good people and that can teach you things. And, so saying you want to be taught is a way to say you're manageable or you wanna learn from good people saying you're excited to to do the type of work that they do saying that getting along with your interviewers a way to communicate that you can get along with people.

And then the style of work is also a way to do that. So I personally believe that that [01:15:00] this, these questions or these issues that I brought up today are one of the reasons that that our that a lot of law firms are very difficult for people to get jobs in because you're not people aren't able to communicate this it's people from different backgrounds.

It could be. And when I say backgrounds, I don't mean it could be, if you're from another country, it could be, if you're from LA trying to get a job in Chicago or from, just different, environments or different ways of thinking and acting and communicating will often not do things the way or communicate the way.

That they need to, in order to to get the positions that they're trying to get. So you, you don't wanna say these things when you're interviewing you wanna talk to people in a way that communicates that you agree that you're that you can that agree with that stuff.

OK. Here's another good question. If you discover and I, these are great questions, by the way, I'm very impressed of these questions. And it's very helpful too, for, anybody that's watching this just because these are this is really important information to, to learn [01:16:00] and bear few people ever learn this information and have very poor careers because not don't meet the potential because of it.

And I, all the time I've been doing this for so long, I get messages from people that they've dramatically turned around their careers and lives based on just following this advice. I'm not, it's not anything special about what I'm saying other than I'm synthesizing things that I picked up, but it, this stuff is all very important.

Okay. If you discover that the firm you've been hired by is not a good fit for you culture low hours, should you leave and find another job right away? How will this decision impact your ability to the job in the long term? Okay, so there's two points to that. So most law firms will have things that are negative about them that may make them not good fits.

So there's no perfect law firm out there for anyone and every law firm goes through ups and downs. Now I do believe that there's certain cultures that may not work for you or anyone, but most people are able to go [01:17:00] into any type of culture in any, and and. And figure out how to get along with the people there and then figure out the rules of where they're at and and do well there.

And you should do now that doesn't mean that that you can do that in all cultures. I perfectly understand that. And if the law firm is not the right culture, then what I would recommend doing and if it, if the hours are bad but you believe you have employment security, there's nothing wrong with doing a prolonged job search, meaning you're applying for positions on an ongoing basis, different places, and as you're doing so you are finding you, you may find places that you would like to work in.

So that's that have a better culture. And I think that people often will find cultures that match them by just spending time talking to different firms and really listening to what you need. But there's one problem I did want do wanna bring up and I, it didn't talk about it too much in the webinar, but it is a it, it is an important one and it's basically [01:18:00] you are responsible.

And so what I mean by you are responsible is you are responsible for for for getting along with others and for doing things the way they want and along, and being understand, doing well in the culture and all those sort of stuff. So you are ultimately responsible.

So a lot of people will go around and say on their eighth or ninth firm, we'll say, oh, I'm really excited to be here. The culture is great. I like the people. And then we'll say the same thing problems about the next firm. And and so ultimately you're responsible. And when you talk about doing a job for the long term, The reason I like that discussion is because there are people that will walk into any employer and be able to get along and just do well there over the long term.

And those are people that are able to accept responsibility, so accepting responsibility for everything in your career. And frankly in your life is something that will pay profound results. So anytime you say to yourself, I, I hate working for [01:19:00] this partner. What is it you hate about it, make yourself responsible, or anytime you say, I can't believe but I chose this firm.

Why did I do this? Just accept responsibility. So if you accept responsibility, instead of getting angry at at other people and or at your firm and just put the blame on yourself, and then you're focused on finding solutions as opposed to being upset with what's going on. So I always recommend accepting responsibility.

I think that one of the reasons that when people go into firms and they're the same types of people and they're, they stay there for a long time, it's because they are however their makeup is they're able to accept responsibility and change their behavior in an appropriate way. When they're having issues with a given employer they're working.

Okay, this is a good question. How often do big firms hire from smaller midsize firms?

Most of the time the law firms are interested in, can you do the job?

And then it's, can you do the job the way we want it done?

So a lot of times the law firms will hire from other major law firms. The reason they will do that is [01:20:00] because they believe can come into the firm and work at the same level and under the same expectations and do things the same way that they do them there.

So that's very common that for the lateral big firms to hire that way, but at the same time there's there's the other thing that that I spoke about, which is, do you want job and do you want the job? And will you do the job long term? And so law firms love it, especially do the job.

They love it at the lateral level when they're bringing in people that are maybe from smaller to mid-size firms that are just working in their firm is the greatest thing it's ever happened to them. And they're very excited about it. And they're gonna give everything they have, because what happens at a lot of big firms is the people that are working there.

They get disillusioned and unexcited and the firm knows they're gonna leave. And so bringing in people from smaller to mid-size firms actually brings a lot of, puts a lot of fire in their belly and raises the spirits of everyone. And so [01:21:00] you can get hired from small to mid-size firms.

In fact, it's very common for large law firms to hire people from good, respected, smaller to mid-size firms. They want to make sure that the person has worked with people that are that they don't, they're not gonna come with all sorts of bad habits and so forth, meaning that they know how to do the work well or that they can learn, but they love that enthusiasm.

So Lolar large law firms will hire people laterally from small to midsize firms all the time. And as a matter of fact, it often is in their best interests to do so because instead of getting someone that's going to go there and just be disillusioned and part of a kind of negativity again, that they're then they they're able to hire people, excuse me, they're able to hire people that are very enthusiastic and that, that actually benefits the firm because you'll work more hours.

You'll try to get ahead. You'll try to learn the rules and what's necessary and so forth. Okay. Is it common for big law firms to not accept auto hires? No, it's not. So there are certain firms that on BCG [01:22:00] website, there are rankings of firms from one to five and five firms are the highest ranking firms.

There are certain firms mainly in New York that pretty much do all of their hiring from law students. And then bring people up through the ranks that way. And they have very good kind of system firms like that would be CBA. What else? Sullivan and Crom for the most part Tel.

A lot of others. And then but there's not a lot of firms like that. There's also some very prestigious litigation boutiques and things that do that. But for the most part it's those firms are very rare and there's not a lot of them. I believe that they do it because they want to be very protective of the culture.

What tends to happen when big law firms start hiring from other big law firms they, the culture is becomes much less consistent and because it's less consistent than than the firm believes that it may suffer. And then also the people that are trained in a certain way of doing business.

And so a certain way of thinking about problems and how they do the work. You've already see job offers from other law firms, but your current firm [01:23:00] offers you a chance to work on one of the biggest clients. What do you do? Is it worth staying at your current company? If the reason you want to leave is that you aren't billing very much clients, would you? Okay. I'm assuming you're talking about they're giving you a chance to not, they're not outsourcing your, you're not going to work inside of the client, but you're giving a chance to work with one of their biggest clients.

So many times if a law firm is not healthy and law firms are not healthy for a lot of reasons, they may be unhealthy because they don't have, the partners do not have enough clients, or they have too many service partners or too many people not bringing in work, or they're not competing well enough to get work in the market.

Then then that's typically a problem. Law firms can advance you only if you don't have business law firms can only advance you if they have large clients that can feed you a lot of work. And and so you can make partner lots of firms without any business, but but if the firm's not getting a lot of business, there's all sorts of business decisions that maybe have been made, meaning it could be related to its [01:24:00] billing rates.

It could be related to the incentives it's giving partners to bring in work. There's all sorts of things. The law firm may not be doing well in business, but it could also be your practice there in the part of the country you're in. But if you're looking laterally and you do wanna work in a law firm, another law firm I do recommend that you try to go some place where they're very busy.

So law firms that are very busy or typically not always, but where the most opportunity is the most opportunity by the way, is going to be at younger firms that are very busy that are recent upstarts. Those are the ones that always have the most opportunity. But the next kind of source of opportunity can, could also be more established firms with lots of work as well.

But lots of work is really where typically what you want, if there's lots of work what happens when there's not lots of work is the law firm will start looking for people to let go. The, they will judge your work more harshly. They're just not very pleasant places to work. And if a law firm has lots of work and there's lots of money flowing they're [01:25:00] typically much happier places to work.

I see

Okay. Do you have any advice for someone considering a lateral move out of a lower rank firm? These are great questions. Thank you for asking those.

Any advice for someone considering a lateral move out of a lower rank firm? What are some of the things to watch out for? So anytime you're moving laterally out of a lower ranked firm the firms typically are ranked from and I the, I dunno if I ha I don't know, wanna screw up webinar, so I'm not gonna but there is a, I think it's BCG search.com/firm rankings.

Something like that as the URL, but firms are typically ranked from one to five. So you have all consumer facing and, consumer small business facing,

and you have small midsize business

midsize.

Oops.

And this is the rankings that I've developed this, but it's to large business and then largest business.

So these are your, your top, top firms.

These are going to be, your ones that are considered the most [01:26:00] prestigious. These are gonna be your typical am law. 100 type firms Mo 100, some of these will be, but anyway, these and these are, small, personal injury, so forth. I dunno, trust in estate. Just, I don't know, but you get the idea.

So the, just things that work for consumers without a lot of money to spend up to companies that have a lot of money to spend. So the goal of any attorney that's laterally should preferably be, if you're working at a one firm, meaning you're doing some sort of consumer facing work where you're being paid by consumers this would also be businesses or matters without a lot of money to spend, which could be like this could even be insurance defense.

Your goal is not a lot of my,

Your goal really is to start out. If you start out at a one firm, which would be all consumer would be to move to a firm where you're doing a little bit of where you're working more for consumers or small businesses, then to move from a small BI someone working for smaller businesses or lower billing rates, which is why I put insurance events to a one working a three, two, a four, and people [01:27:00] do move from one to five firms, all the, not five necessarily, but they do occasionally move from one to five but is to move into larger and larger clients.

And so what you wanna look out for when you're moving firms is you wanna look out for, how much money do the clients have to spend. And so all advancement come in law firms happens when. Clients have a lot more money to spend. So if a client has more money to spend, that means the law firm has the money to hire better people.

And it means that that the law firm can do more work on matters and there's more profits and all that sort of thing. So this is the whole dynamic of your typical us law firm is the one which is consumer all the way to the five is a large business. So what do you look out for if you are starting at the bottom at a one firm, which if nothing wrong with that, and lots of people do your goal is to try to get into a two firm maybe a three, but you're probably only get into a two firm and start working on small business clients.

What you would look out for is if you were at a consumer [01:28:00] firm, you would look out for, if you're trying to do advance and get to bigger and bigger firms or more access to more and more money you're looking out for, does the firm do what I be able to work on small business matters.

And then when you get from a, when you get to a three firm, you would say what I be able to work on mid-size business matter. So your biggest goal when you're trying to move up, the firm ranks is to to try to make sure that you're going to a firm where there actually is, the clients are actually spending more money.

These clients tend to be piecemeal, meaning, you might get a personal injury verdict or they're gonna pay you a certain amount for doing a certain type of work. Whereas these clients start maybe paying by the billable hour. And then and then as you get into these higher rank firms, the firms are happy to almost write endless checks for huge amounts of money and at higher, at high high hour or high hourly rates in order to do that.

So you really wanna look out for when you're moving to, to a better firm. Is it really a better firm, meaning are you gonna be working on bigger matters? Is there. The bill will rates higher, but you're [01:29:00] also wanna look looking out for is, am I going to be able to stay here? And what happens does the firm really need me?

Do they have a lot of work and so forth? Is there a certain type of year to make the best, make a lateral move? I think so, yes. So I think the best time of the year to make a move is often when other people are not looking because the law firms are getting fewer applications. So those times include things like November and December fewer people are looking then.

So your odds of moving there a little bit easier November, December people seem to be in better spirits and less critical maybe that's cuz there were parties. And so I don't know, but seem to be in better spirits and less critical. And so I think that's a good time because of that. It's always I have another article that's fun.

It's called always interview on Fridays and and people didn't interview on Fridays always do much better than later in the week. I think that's just because saying people are less critical. But but the big thing is fewer people are applying. They believe that if you start looking, if you look for jobs in November and [01:30:00] December, that you're going that I don't know, but but there's just a lot more opportunity that you're you get the most interview, you get more interviews in November and December than other times of the year, other times year.

So the number of people that applied at firms and the number of interviews they get is much higher in November and December in terms of your hit race. So if you started looking in October, that kind of thing that, that trend worked very well. And the other thing is that there's also.

A lot of firms have now firms are in different calendar years. So sometimes the firm's calendar year could end in, any month of the year. But a lot of times they also have recruiting budgets and number of people that they can hire during certain period. And and more, more frequently, they're not those budgets will always often expire at the end, in January, before January 1st.

And so they try to hire a lot of people then. So I've just noticed a lot of people that are able to move to much better firms than they're currently working at, or the number of decisions to hire [01:31:00] versus not hire is much higher in November and December now that there's not always more job listings, then a lot of the job listings come out.

Typically right now there's always like a big kind of rush of job listings that comes out in this time of year meaning right when the summer associates have left and recruiting departments concentrate on that, but there's also another big rush also, usually in January when the firms get things together.

And so our busiest month in terms of placements has always typically been March, April that type of the year when the most offers come in. But but that, doesn't, that's also a lot more job seekers than OK. Lemme just see.

Okay. How would you overcome obstacles? Sorry, I keep doing, where you mentioned where where you actually don't want the job and mentally convince yourself that you really do. Okay. If you don't want the job that you really. Probably shouldn't be doing the job or applying for that job.

But the nice thing about being an attorney is attorneys have all sorts of skills and can do all sorts of different things. And and so you don't [01:32:00] necessarily need to always practice law or work in a firm if you don't want to. I can't tell you how many people that I, most people that I know that do other things besides practice law, that really didn't like it end up being far more successful and happy doing other things.

So that's just the first thing that I would say, but but the big point that I would say is that if you don't want the job, how do you manually convince yourself that you really do you think about aspects of the firm that you like or aspects of your practice here that you like if you are, whatever your practice area, I'm sure that there's things that you like about it and think about what you enjoy doing and really focus on the positive as opposed to the negative of whatever that is try to get interest in it and then and talk about those things.

But I, again, if you don't really want a job, I you, it's very difficult to to get positions you, you don't want there are people that can go in and do a great job convincing people that they want something they don't, but at the same time I would recommend probably trying to, if you find a job that you really do wanna do as opposed to something [01:33:00] you don't or figuring out the positive aspects of it I I remember when.

I've been in a lot of situations that just looked absolutely horrible. And without getting too far into it, what I like to do, and it's not necessarily an employment situation, but I would, you look at the things that are positives. And so instead of focusing on the negatives, are you focus on the positives?

And a lot of times attorneys are thought taught to be very critical. It's one reason that there's so well, it's just a, for a lot of, them's a very half profession because of the way are taught to thought, but think, but just think about the positive aspects of whatever it is. And it's very difficult.

I'm not saying otherwise, but a lot of times people will you have to look at the positive aspects of what you do and really not, cause what you focus on is. Is what is what happens. There's a, there's when it's a funny point, but it's when anytime people are like there's accidents all the time, like car accidents and anytime there's a car accident a car like spins out of control.

What happens is [01:34:00] a lot of times you'll see the car will like, it will hit the telephone pole, like straight on, or it'll hit whatever. And when there's nothing else around. And the reason is when people get in an accident, for whatever reason, they're focused on avoiding something, but all they're doing is staring at the telephone pole and that's like exactly what they need to avoid.

And so when it's the same thing with you, like when you're thinking about a job and what you don't like, you have to focus on what's positive and what's not negative. And and focusing on the negative is a real problem. It's just how our minds work and people spend a lot more time in the negative and the positive.

Okay. When I graduated from law school in 2020, I needed a job and accepting offer to work in a financial services firm in May, 2021. And I'm seeking to move to a law firm setting, given perceptions of inhouse attorneys seeking to transition over how would I be able to provide firms that reassurance that I'm ready and willing to work hard and efficiently both of my application during the interview stage, I am young and don't have any personal applications and me from work long hours.

Okay. So that's a great question. So all you need to do so the, and this is for everyone. [01:35:00] This is an important point just to keep in mind is anytime you're UN you have things in your background that are that are that are preventing you from getting interviewed. All you need to do is just, you just need to, you need to go to a firm where.

That, that might be a little bit easier for you to get a job in as opposed to one that's not gonna hire you. Most if you don't, if you're not coming from a law firm environment, you're gonna have a very difficult time getting a job probably at a three or four, five firm, but you certainly could get a job maybe at a one or two firm doing something.

And then as you establish yourself there, you can move to a better firm. And this sort of thing happens all the time. I've seen people graduate from, UCLA and all sorts of great schools and, not pass the bar several times. And so they be outta luck and and so they only way they can start their careers to the, after that happens is to work at a smaller firm and then they do, and then they get experienced.

Then we do a better and better firm. So it's the same thing within house. If you started your career in house or in the wrong, in a practice setting, that's not conducive to get a job. You just need to [01:36:00] start a lower level firm. That means you'll make less money, but it also means someone will train you to do a certain practice area.

And what I like by the way about people that go into consumer facing practice areas, which are personal injury, it can be trust in estates. It can be all sorts of things. So divorce family law is that you learn a skill and that skill. You can make an extremely good living throughout your whole career learning these skills.

So it's just, the more you do the more, even if you start in a consumer facing practice here, you're learning a business and you never learn a business, you can do in these top firms, you learn something you can do for others. You learn how to work for others, but you don't learn a business.

And so sometimes there's a, there's a there's a silver lining to not having gone to the best law schools or not being able to get a job when you come out and then going to work for in its firms. And the silver lining is that you learn a business. And I know all the attorneys that I know by the way that work in consumer facing firms are for the most part very happy they have great careers.

They're excited. [01:37:00] They much happier and less negative than the majority of attorneys working in the larger law firms. I don't know why that is. Maybe it's they feel more independent, so they have their own business. I know people from huge firms like extremely great, the most prestigious backgrounds imaginable that started at five firms and then went and started consumer facing firms.

And there's nothing wrong with it, but that's really what I would do. And the nice thing is if you start at one of these lower level firms, you will have be trained in doing a business. And that is a very powerful thing that you can, if you learn how to be a personal injury attorney, you can go to work at any market in the country and do it.

That's or a family law attorney and you can always have work, especially if you're good at very smart link, okay. Work in an Arab international law prior to becoming a lawyer, I worked in non-legal roles in this field with the government and companies, including international roles.

After becoming a lawyer, I've worked as inhouse counsel and other legal roles for over six years. This includes work with the law contract. We're all doing the same work that associates and councils [01:38:00] are doing at the firm. I've had interviews with law firms. Hold on a second law question. I have interviews with law firms due to my experience.

I do not fit into associate role. Some law firms want portable business, but I've had several interviews have not been able to break into a council role with a law firm over time. I've been able to develop some portable business

over time. I've been able to develop some portable business and it will grow if I'm able to develop more time to it. Do I continue to interview law firms or take a break in focus, building portable business on what would be a good way to lateral enter law firm? I feel as C or senior counselor, a resume includes legal and non-legal.

Okay. I don't know where you are at, but I'm assuming you might be in Washington DC or something like that. But if you're not it doesn't. So what you typically do in this situation is sure.

Okay. So on a contract we'll doing the same work. Okay. So what I would recommend doing council positions are often dependent on the size firm will be given away. So the larger law firms are taken them very seriously and is very [01:39:00] difficult to break into a council role. But as you get into smaller firms a lot of times smaller firms, especially very small firms, which would be like two to five.

People will allow anyone to call themselves council that that comes to work for them. And often just take a percentage of the work that they bill or something, or who knows. But what I would recommend doing in your situation would be finding and researching smaller firms, if you wanna work in a law firm, smaller firms that would give you a council role, give you a council role and allow you to hold yourself out as a council to hold yourself out as council, if that's what you want. And and typically those firms would not pay you, but they would use your background and so forth to make themselves like a bigger firm, like a bigger firm and more prestigious, and that would help them.

You would probably have a lot more luck with those firms and those people, if you tried to message them personally, instead of just applying and saying, I'd love to talk to you about your practice and and what I, and I'm looking for a council role. I'd love to [01:40:00] talk to you. I work in a book, something along those lines.

Some other stuff I would try to work on if I was in your situation would be I do would recommend continuing interviewing. I think that you obviously have a good background. I think that the law firms that are interviewing you are interviewing you because of your background and because it's something that looks good to them.

And and so that there, it sounds like if you do a good job with all this that you will be able to transition into a law firm at some point in the near future. But I, the best way to do it, would you be to research firms in your market that would. Be smaller and allow you to hold yourself out as counsel go out and meet with them for inter in informational interviews.

And a lot of times informational interviews could even lead to work, not necessarily to them, but for their clients. Sometimes it will give you work. So information. I'd love to buy lunch. I'd love to spend, 15 minutes with you or something over coffee just introducing myself and talking about that.

So that's the first thing I would do. And the next thing I would do is I would [01:41:00] keep interviewing because each interviewing each interview you do is a chance to learn from the firms. And even if you're not hired you're still learning information that you can use later on, and there's nothing wrong with that.

And you can always apply later on when you do develop a book. Then I would also one of the things that a lot of attorneys don't do that they really should do is I would study, how to get business. Like you I've written articles about it. There's all sorts of books about how to bring in book, read business into professional services firms and how to develop.

And because this is so important, you should really become a student of it and do whatever you can to learn about this stuff, because the more you learn and the more ideas you come up with, the better off you're gonna do in the long run. And this is obviously very important. So every attorney should do that.

Now, the other thing too, is you're in a niche share of international law. So you need to find out who are all the people that work in the same niche, and you should probably get to know them. So in law firms, a lot of times, if you get to know the sorts of people that do [01:42:00] the work then there's professional groups, I don't know, but but even just calling them and know the people doing the work and inter, and then that's important.

The other thing I would recommend is I would, if you can, I would do papers and articles and presentations and whatever you can to be seen as an expert in your in what, whatever you're doing. A lot of my candidates people that I've worked with in the past had a lot of success just branding themselves as doing one thing.

You could be a software attorney. You could be in software agreement, attorney. There's millions of things that you can do, but if you're the, if you look like the recognized expert in this field and the only person that's interested in this niche area that's going to go a long way. And a lot of people don't do that.

They expect law firms to hire them and advance them and give them opportunities without doing these things. And and you have to, so those are some of my suggestions. I think if you didn't most of those things you would be in great shape.

Okay. Let's see.

Okay. This next question is how do law students graduating law students, [01:43:00] email law firms or resumes and transcripts to look appealing, to hire. So I believe that one of the smartest things you can do is to mail your resume and transcript. Now I like it when people just send their resume and not their transcript, but but if you send mail very few people like mail.

You can certainly email as well, but mail always works better because no one sends mail. And I like to open mail. Everybody likes to open mail and if you send mail, it works better and people are gonna think much highly of you, more highly of you. If you send it, people will often look at your resume and then they will that's it.

They won't make your cover letter, but if you send a cover letter and then a letter in the mail, it works a lot better. The other thing, and so very few people do that. You can put it on a nice stationary but the, anything that's personalized meaning why you like the firm. And you're able to think through that very clearly and directly is much better.

Spending 10 minutes and finding out, say you're a you do patent law and you have a degree in chemical engineering [01:44:00] sending a letter to the, someone that looks like a, an important patent attorney. That's also got a chemical background in the firm and saying, I love your background.

I'm also a patent attorney. I would really love to come in and speak with you and learn a little bit about your practice and your understanding of the legal market, where I'm looking for a position. It's going to go a lot farther than just sending an email to human re a letter to human resources and mailing it sending a letter to someone that went to your law school and and is a partner in a firm.

And at a given city in the practice here, you want to be in asked, saying, I'd love to get your idea about some ideas about what it's like working. Corporate and you're, that sort of thing is whatever the practice area is going to go a lot farther than just mass mailing your resume. So everything is about, and the legal market really, and it's not easy.

It's about how do you make connections? How do you how do you tell people that you're interested in them and and what do you do? Cause otherwise [01:45:00] you're just an annoyance and and so sending around a bunch of emails is, can be helpful, but at the same time you want get people's attention, the extent you can.

Okay. Hope appeal to someone, look to a law firm after a judicial clerkship. So it depends on the clerkship. So the and again it's all dependent on what your past experience is the problem with clerkships. And I did a clerkship, so I'm not being critical of them, but the problem with clerkships many times is it looks like especially if you haven't practiced law at all, as the summer associate or done prior to your judicial clerkship some law firms may assume that you did that because you couldn't get a position or who knows.

And they don't like that. And and so you have to be very careful in others, all sorts of different types of clerkships. You have state clerkships and appellate clerkships and federal clerkships, and there's tons of different types of clerkships. Generally if you do a clerkship you wanna try to apply to firms that are in in estate clerkship, hopefully in the market that you're trying to work in, unless it's [01:46:00] Supreme court clerkship, which means you can probably work in other markets as well.

Not The top board of state Supreme court in new York's a different thing, but the with the so you have to be careful about that. But firms like appellate clerkships, they federal appellate clerkships. They like district court clerkships, and there's good training.

And so there's good reasons to do clerkships, but at the same time you have to be you have to realize that that you, if you do a clerkship, you still need to be trained in whatever your practice area is after you do the clerkship. So even though you're litigation at most clerkships retrain you to be a commercial litigator you still need to learn local rules and all sorts of things once you start.

But but the point is, is they like clerkships. They don't like too many clerk ships. The, if you wanna work in a you have these, if you wanna work in a four or five firm, you're typically going to need to do a federal clerk district clerkship. If you wanna work in a one through three firm, you can do state clerkships.

Those are fine. Some but the you're better off doing. And I think you get [01:47:00] good experience. All of them. The only reason that state clerkships sometimes are that is good is because the quality of judges is is all over the map. There's some very good judges and trial court judges and LA superior court but some would consider them not all good.

But and the same thing with federal judges, but the quality of federal judges is usually considered to be higher than most state court judges. So it's just that's how people look at clerkships and. And what to think. But if the larger firms usually do expect you to have if you're doing a clerkship to, for, they prefer a federal clerkship magistrate clerkships are also a federal clerkship.

That's not as helpful as a district clerkship because it's not a lifetime appointment. It's a different type of judge. The the sorry, it's a lot of information about clerkships fee. And then you have tax court clerkships, which are very good for tax attorneys. And you also have bankruptcy clerkships, which are very good for bankruptcy attorneys and all those types of clerks do get jobs.

It's just a question of the type of position [01:48:00] that you're looking for, but essentially clerkships are good. They train you and but it depends on the size firm you want to get in. I do think that state clerk clerkships can be very good if you wanna work in the area where you're doing the state courtship or in the state.

I think that federal clerkships are good for working nationally, but they're it's up to, but but you have to be careful about clerkships because you don't wanna take one, if you feel like it's going limit. I would say one other thing about clerkships each year there's people that go to top law schools, which could be, Harvard or Columbia or whatever.

And they they may, have bad grades or they may not have gotten a second year, summer associate job, or or may have not got an offer after giving the summer associate job. And and then going to the third year without a job and having to tell employee and get an offer, which is fine.

It happens. And a lot of those people. The their advice, their schools give them, which is very good, is to do any clerkship you can get, because then you can come out of there and get a job. And and so you can come out of most clerkships and [01:49:00] find a job locally. And it's much better than not working at all or spending months looking for a job, because at least you're working in your practice area.

And even I have nothing bad to say about state court clerkships. I know plenty of people that have that I've after you've worked for me as law clerk and so forth that have done state court clerkships, and and done very well. So there's nothing wrong with them. It's just that you have to be.

Realize that that some of them, they can be limiting to some extent and not to times they can be helpful. Even the federal appellate clerkship can, gives has a reputation of having people in it that are very smart and not necessarily litigators, more appellate types that I it's just some big firms don't like that, but okay.

How can you demonstrate that you meet all these factors in your interview when you experience at your last firm was not so great. Is there a chance that you will not be viewed as general candor? Yeah, so everybody has bad experiences. Most attorneys by the time they've been outta law school for several years has had employment situations that haven't worked out, whether it's them getting fired or having other [01:50:00] issues it's perfectly normal.

There's nothing really to worry about. But the point is to understand what people are looking for. People are looking for different things and and some people emphasize other things more than others. You have to really approach it from do the best you can, but realize what people are going to be looking for.

And you don't have to have a great experience at every firm. They do say I was reading a book the other day and they were saying most most first marriages fail most second marriage. Succeed the majority of third marriages the substantial majority succeed and the fourth marriage is, something along those lines so people have to learn, if they get married, when they're young and it doesn't work out, they have to learn how to get along better with people.

The second marriage, they often learn even better. So those tend to stick. So it's like that with jobs sometimes too, you just can't, you can't feel horribly that that your first job or your second job or didn't work out, but you definitely what's required to succeed at your next job

is clerkship for someone who wants to do transactional work. Yeah, pretty much. Anything's better than than not working. So [01:51:00] there but you have to know why you wanna do transactional work clerkships are for litigators for the most part. And why, and you have to ask yourself why you wanna do transactional work.

So just to give you I, I talk about this each week, but litigators are people that enjoy reading, social sciences, that kinda stuff, sciences, I dunno what else there is reading social sciences in those sorts of things and transactional people typically, not always, things like math, science.

So that it's not always the case, but if you feel like you really wanna do transactional work, you may be more of that type of person. Transactional work also are finance type people, which, People know them when they see them, but and but yeah, clerkships are for litigators.

Now you can certainly go if you do a clerkship then and you come out and you say you wanna do corporate then most of the time you're going to have to start at a smaller firm cuz a large law firm may hire you to do corporate. If you come out of a large firm, but if you want be a corporate attorney, but [01:52:00] but most of the time they won't, so they're large law firms will hire you to be litigator if you come out as a clerk, but but typically not corporate.

So you have to be very careful with that. What should we write in a letter to the law firm with our resume and transcripts? So you would typically with your resume and transcripts, you answer this, but but you would typically in the letter you would want to highlight your interests and you would wanna try.

The best thing you can do is make a connection with someone.

Writing, if, unless you're not, unless you are but if you can make an action with someone. So you know, and there's a whole section, there's a bunch of articles on BCG about cover letters. So I do a search about cover letters, BCG search, just do search go letters,

search.

But your your the letter should basically talk about what you want, why you wanna work in the firm make some sort of connection with the firm, and if you can, the person and but not a lot of detail. And but that would be my [01:53:00] suggestion, but there's a lot of good things that I've written.

Okay. Okay. Let's see that about that. That will help you. Cover letter is a very personal thing. There's also a a webinar that I did about cover letters. So if you go into the webinars about cover letters, there's a thing where I've done web cover letter critiques and all sorts of things.

So this says, so if we're graduating from law school without a job, should we not take a clerkship? We wanted do transactional work? No, you can still take a, you could still take a a clerkship if you're graduating. And you wanted to transactional, you can always transition to, you can apply for transactional jobs.

When you get out the clerkship, you're better off having a job than no job and looking for a job. The perception is that you, what you can say when you apply for those types of jobs was I got exposed to litigation. I'm glad I did it. And it convinced me that I wanna be a transactional attorney.

I'm not as confrontational as it is this types of thing. This is what people say and that, and that works. And I'm more interested in math and science and transactions and detail than the type of work that a [01:54:00] litigator does. So that's how I would typically answer a question like that.

Lemme see here. Okay. This is kinda a fun question. How does a rising three L let's. Show they're still worth hiring after a no return offer from a small firm that is working with off cheap labor and legal assistance law clerks they worked with, and they're two all summer. So there's nothing wrong in not getting an offer.

That's the first thing don't with not getting an offer. If the if the law firm is working off this cheap labor and so forth, like you're talking about I wouldn't be critical do not be critical of your employer. I just think this firm is being smart. They're figure they figured out how to make money without hiring attorneys, not critical of employer you may not have given in and on and remember your attitude is everything.

So you have to be very careful about having a bad attitude. Remember what I said earlier in the webinar? Think it you'll show it. So do not think negative things about your past employers think it, how you'll show it. Just think about how much you learn working there. You learn I'll show what is required of you to get an offer.

You learn that it's competitive in law [01:55:00] firms, if you're not providing valuable use cheaper people to do the work. And so you can still show your worth hired. I would, what I would say that that when you're asked why you didn't get an offer you probably thought honestly will not.

If it's a smaller law firm, you probably will not be asked why you didn't get an offer. You could say You know that you didn't like you, you explored the practice area, you didn't like it. You wanna work in a different market. You would prefer to work in a larger city. There's all sorts of reasons that you can give that you didn't take an offer or decide to work there.

You can say that it was a summer job that they weren't, they don't have any open. There's all sorts of things you can say, but most of the time it doesn't come up. What I always recommend is if you're a three out and you're trying to and you didn't get an offer, you can apply to different markets, which is sometimes if you're going to a law school out of state, you can apply to where you're from.

You can also apply to other firms in the same market and the legal market's huge. And just in Los Angeles alone, there's thousands and thousands of [01:56:00] firms. New York, it's astonishing how many firms there are. So there's lots of opportunities to get jobs but you have to learn the lessons and just remember the statement that, I'm responsible for whatever happens.

Even though you may not feel you're responsible, you have to remember what did you do to put yourself in a position where you didn't get an offer. And once you understand that, you must be much better.

What would I do to work with BCG recruiters in my search for a role at a law firm?

Okay, this is a decent question. And then I will end this webinar unless there's nothing else.

What should you do to work with one of our recruiters in your search for a role in a law firm?

So typically what we look for when we're looking at candidates is just someone having a focused resume.

So focused resume means your resume is focused on one practice area. So, if your resume is talking about a bunch of different things, especially your experience, most of the jobs that we have, because we're a recruiting firm. Placement firm are for people that are specialists.

It doesn't matter what it is.

It could be divorce, it could be workers comp, it could be high level corporate work. It could be appellate [01:57:00] litigation. It doesn't matter, but you have to have some sort of specialty. Otherwise, you're like everyone else.

I don't care where someone went to law school.

Any of that, it's irrelevant. All I care about is whether or not you have a focused experience.

I personally look at all the resumes that come into our company. I look at them, and it takes a lot of time, but I do.

And that's really what everyone that I'm looking for is just folks experience. And once a resume looks like that, then typically we're able to to usually have something for the person and then and then also the practice setting. We typically prefer people that are coming from law firms.

Okay. Thank you everyone for being on this call. I appreciate this was a long webinar and a lot of Q&A.

I will of course be back next week. I think that's about it. This has been a lot of good questions and again, I appreciate everyone taking the time to learn this stuff.

This is a lot of information, everyone who's listening to this. I gotta say that probably way, way ahead, even just after the session of 99% of your peers and understanding kind of what the legal market's all about [01:58:00] and how things work.

And many people I've talked to people all day and many people that are even 30, 40 years in their career, don't understand 20% of what I've talked about today. So this will also be up as a replay later on. And then all these questions and there's other webinars as well on our on our site that you can look at.

Thank you everybody for all these questions today. I do very much appreciate it and have a good day. Thanks.