22.03.09 - How Attorneys Can Relocate and Practice Law Internationally and Overseas: The Best Practice Areas and Locations to Practice Law Overseas
[00:00:00] Okay, so we're going to get started. So today's is actually a fun topic. This is based on an article that I wrote a long time ago, and obviously since then, a lot of stuff have changed, but I'm going to talk about what if you want to do, if you do want to practice overseas, the best practice areas and and also how to do it.
And I placed a lot of attorneys internationally. It's a constant flow of people. Us attorneys in particular working internationally that a place to over the year. It's actually if you're in the right practice area and have the right experience, it's not too difficult to work internationally as an attorney.
And of course there's lots of other jobs you could do in addition to being an attorney internationally. So I'll talk about that as well. And then after I'm done with the presentation, I'll take questions and this is actually a fairly short presentation or actually very short compared to the ones I usually do.
So it shouldn't take very long. And if you have questions you can start asking them as you think about them. I'm happy to answer them about this or anything. So a lot of attorneys do want to work overseas. It's very common. When people get out of school to have an interest in working overseas [00:01:00] a lot of the locations when it comes to working in major law firms tend to be in markets like London, Hong Kong China as well.
The thing is that it's, it is an option for a lot of attorneys especially with major firms, but there's also a room in smaller firms. And we, pretty much always have attorneys interviewing in international markets, whether it's London, Hong Kong, or China, or different places in Asia, Singapore, and.
And so forth and and it's definitely something that most attorneys can do. If they're interested, patent attorneys are also w a recent phenomenon that do a lot of interviews as well. So I'm going to talk about that China and then a few other markets as well.
Let me just see here at give me one second, trying to pull this up.
All right. And yeah. And so this is a old article from 20 plus years ago, there used to be updated, but a lot of American firms now, hundreds of them have offices overseas and attorneys with experienced international transactions are often very much in demand about the, the th the [00:02:00] attorneys that do work overseas international transactions which I'll talk about today, tend to be for the most part, doing capitalist markets had securities related work but they definitely can get positions overseas if you have that kind of experience.
Let's see. And, lots of attorneys also work in house overseas. And and then there's also a lot of other markets like we're American attorneys work. I placed a lot of people at Germany Singapore I don't think I have, I've certainly worked with lots of attorneys in India, but that's not a very popular place, but definitely placed people in India and other European countries as well.
So there's just a lot of there are a lot of there's a lot of work over there. You should just watching the news when you see they monitor, companies that are at different European American companies and so forth and companies that do business from Europe and Asia in the United States.
There's just a lot of. A lot of work. And the majority of the work that I've been doing internationally is typically focused on London, Hong Kong and China, because these are major financial centers as well as Singapore is another one. And then there's always [00:03:00] ongoing openings.
If you look on BCG in various European areas various European countries, us there, there's pretty much always a need for American attorneys in most European countries. Then there's also a lot of work that we've done and, places like Dubai and Saudi Arabia and so forth as well.
So the first place I'll talk about is London, Hong Kong and then Hong Kong, I would also include in that China. And and then I'll talk a little bit about some other markets as well. I'm talking pretty much about the types of attorneys that, that we're able to place.
So you have to think about too, from the standpoint of a placement market, like if you're in the business that I'm in, which is recruiting that when you place people overseas, that the people have to have experience, that's pretty extraordinary. So it means it has to be something that that the company, the, the law firms can't necessarily find in their own market.
That would be someone with experience that is worth moving them across the world and taking the the risk that the person could leave and all those [00:04:00] sorts of things. So what that means is, th they have to have very good training and a practice area that's pretty unique.
So that's things like corporate securities project finance and things that those law firms may not necessarily be able to fight in those markets. And certainly us law firms hire people, but there's also a law firms that are native to London meaning their magic circle firms or other firms in, in Europe in Hong Kong and China that you know, that, that hire American attorneys as well.
And and so what I'm talking about is really American attorneys that aren't native to those jurisdictions. And a lot of the demand. It's just basically based on the open new capital markets and Europe and foreign capital coming in and required familiarity with the American legal system.
And and just a lot of work tends to be coming in. There's a lot of we've placed it almost every major, a UK firm. We'll actually every major UK firm with place people. And they're obviously interested in [00:05:00] willing to look at attorneys with good backgrounds and London firms have always been a pretty good source of placements for us.
And and in in a lot of them are doing very well. Same thing in Europe for the most part, there's a lot of there's also a lot of MNA work and other types of work. And in London the firms are typically called magic circle firms or so largest firms.
Which if you're looking to work there as a securities attorney or in any type of capacity are always on the list of places that people look at. And those are like Allen Overy and Linklaters Freshfields and so forth and slaughter and may and all very good firms. And they pretty much all consistently hire American attorneys and they're considered very elite.
And they're all traditionally has been in the same area in walking distance, so St Patrick's cathedral or St Paul's cathedral and and and then there's certainly a cog in the bells and stuff, a lot of other firms that hire US-based attorneys. So it's just important to understand that they're always seeking th the top firms in London Hong Kong and English firms in Hong Kong, [00:06:00] U S firms in Hong Kong and China, they're always seeking American attorneys with top credentials.
If you speak Japanese firms in Japan are always interested in you as well. They liked solid, transactional experience. And and they like you to come from a major recognized American or British law firms. And when they think of the top firms, I they're thinking of places like Gibson, Dunn late that the walk-ins Scott and I are like the big kind of names as they, as the ones they tend to hire from the most, because those are proven.
And so smaller firms, if you work a mid-level firm or a local firm that may be very prestigious in your own market, it becomes very difficult to get jobs here. They're really interested in these top firms are really the most interested in. People that would work at, I don't, whatever ranking system you use, who would be the most prestigious firms.
If you were working at the top firm in Ohio Jones day, that probably would be okay. But if you're working at the top firm and Wisconsin, which, there's lots of very good firms there that probably wouldn't be okay, or the top four with Detroit, by the top for a minute coma, [00:07:00] or, even the, they're looking for the, the big name firms typically they're looking for the top California firms are top the top New York firms when they're hiring.
And these are the best firms in those markets. They're not always doing that. Certainly you can get in to those firms out of sometimes, but they, they really want training in major financial centers and that sort of thing, at least for the corporate related work. So that equity and capital markets are the most important.
And then of course, securities project finance is another big one replaced, if you have a project finance background, Which a lot of times you'd be working in DC. That's also very marketable M and a is marketable derivatives tax law to a lesser extent. I haven't placed personally in the, at least several years texts attorney in in Europe or maybe Asia, I think maybe one, but I don't think I placed a, in Europe in the past several years.
But all the other ones we have and then one of the the Things to be aware is the the English firms came over to the United States with rural 1 44, 8, 9 90, and essentially how, but it was permissible to sell European security [00:08:00] as an American market.
And when in law firms need to be able to offer that advice to their clients. So all of these big English firms started establishing American opposites right away in order to do that. And I remember actually when. Linklaters established an office in New York. And I was one of the first people I ever interviewed there, and that was a long time ago, but so they do hire lots of American attorneys and it's important to note that that these firms are not interested in, attorneys that may have gone to the United States just to get an LLM.
They're really interested in people that have experience from the major firms and and they also, the similar, it's very similar to getting a job in a major New York law firm. They have the same criteria, so they don't want career academics or people would just a little bit of experience or gaps in your resume, solo practitioners or older people for the most part.
They're just looking for if you can get a job at if you can get a job at Linklaters and I made a firm like that or Skadden in New York, you'll probably get a job in a big London firm or a big firm in [00:09:00] Hong Kong or in Asia. It, it tends to be this very similar qualifications senior in-house counsel aren't in demand.
And then there's just a lot of difference between the British and American systems, but and because of that you really can't get over there as a litigator, which I'll talk about in a minute real estate attorneys and so forth to some extent you can with real estate, there's a practice here at called international arbitration, which is doing better and better.
People are definitely getting jobs, doing it and much more so than they were already even a few years ago. And international arbitration is litigation. And I do place people and get them interviews consistently in international arbitration in all sorts of countries, whether it's Germany.
I was talking to someone I think, in Germany this morning, or different Saudi Arabia or Qatar, all those sorts of places or, Hong Kong international nutrition is marketable. It's a very difficult practice area because there's not a lot of openings in international arbitration compared to other practice areas.
But in, in many cases I've even seen a U us attorneys that go to good law schools start. And [00:10:00] international arbitration in the foreign offices of us law firms. Those are all things you can do with international arbitration, but again, it's not a huge practice here. There's not a lot of opportunity.
So if you go to our website and you look at the positions, maybe say in I don't know what an example would be in maybe Washington D C, which is a pretty good market for that or New York. There's always a few, but not a ton. And and then of course, one of the things that happens with international arbitration is a lot of attorneys come over to the U S and get LLMs for really good programs.
I've got Harvard and so forth, and then they try to get jobs in those firms, especially if they speak a language and so forth, but very competitive. But there definitely is opportunity in international arbitration, just not straight litigation. Also Linden from do not have a lot of interest in American labor and employment attorneys.
Again, that's, you just have to think about that from their point of view. It's not. There's not, they don't really have a lot of incentive to have a us labor and employment attorney over there when it's a different law in country, but people apply for these jobs all the time. Also IP transactional stuff [00:11:00] can work and London, it can work in Japan.
It can work in which was patent law, typically people with double E's. They're not that sought out because a lot of the work is done by patent agents and the UK, for example. But I do frequently I've placed people in Japan and all over Asia as U S patent attorneys. So there is work for them.
And the other thing about securities is it can be very volatile. When the economy is doing well, it's very busy. But when it's not busy can very slow. And then a lot of times securities attorneys and UK firms will work on international transactions. And and so that, can be helpful.
And this is just a little bit about cross border finance, which I don't want to bore people too much with. But when the work slows down, a lot of UK firms put their capital markets stuff on that. And and then those are just few a few other things and then of course, when a U S firms opened offices overseas, which they do a lot of cases almost as a because they need to, but also because they like to do it for further, to help the brand.
Then of course they do a lot of hiring [00:12:00] there as well. But typically they'll bring people over from their existing offices and and and the other thing that a lot of people think is they think That if the firm has a us office, that it's going to be interested in hiring American attorneys and regardless of whether it opens and that just isn't the case.
That's not at all. Most, just as most firms in the U S w want to hire me. Yeah. US-based attorneys a lot of times they do want to hire lots of attorneys that are in that area where they're opening offices. You can see that this is just some examples of foreign firms.
So you have Claire and got Chloe Gottlieb that opened its first office in Paris and looking for a time to represent the French purchasing mission which was rebuilding Marshall plan, the Marshall plan. And then once this is open, it started seeing interest from American companies to help them invest in Europe.
And and so it started building up this office, but did hire French attorneys white and case. I has a lot more than 37 offices throughout the world now, but it to its business model involves hiring people that are native to the country. And it [00:13:00] typically is Merck's with local Davis, pumpkin solvent, a chromo really focused or effort and cross border capital markets always have and do work for large international corporations.
And and here, the the involvement of us attorneys is actually much greater than the native attorneys. And I meant, Sherman Sterling, you can see here as a lot of overseas offices and Asia and Europe and so forth. And Hong Kong also has a lot of demand for American train attorneys.
And in China a lot of firms who have offices there now, this also needs to be there's this article that this is PowerPoints based on needs to be updated, but there's just a lot of work over there. And and and for us attorneys and for people that are moving there's lots of people.
I, one of the when I started making a lot of placements in Asia in particular, in the years ago and actually spawned because I was making, I had people that left my placement from it actually started up their own placement firms in some cases actually moving there to do it.
And so there's a lot of work over there and and people have done very [00:14:00] well. And in terms of getting jobs in that market and moving firms Sarah as well is fairly easy. If you have the right experience, people often will move to several firms attorneys that are fluent and different languages are obviously in demand there in Hong Kong.
And then in Asian languages and then. Transactional experience is also very marketable and and and let's see. And then typically the, when the law firms do hire transactional attorneys in markets like Hong Kong and they want to see they, they do like at least three years of experience sometimes two's enough and and you can fairly easily get positions over there.
I've seen, I had the market over there was actually has been, it's been hot and cold, some cases when it's very active, I've had people, get offers after a very quick phone call. Meaning like less than an hour. So it can, you can do very well doing open working over there.
And a lot of times there's very good relocation packages and but attorneys at Western LM doesn't necessarily cut it. And it can be very [00:15:00] difficult to place. And again, same thing with academic lawyers, solo practitioners, and the same sort of people that are not marketable in London Europe.
Yeah. So that's about it now, a couple other things I just, I did want to cover real briefly. I talked a little bit about the transactional component and in the different types of attorneys that are placeable and Hong Kong and Europe another question people ask a lot as if about Australia.
It's to some extent if you have very good transaction experience, you're off the market. There, the salaries are much lower but that can happen. And then one thing that I think is very interesting now is the idea of working remotely. So we have in our company, we have people that are attorneys but they're working as recruiters that are working remotely from foreign countries.
So I'm thinking of one person, a Portugal, and we have people in other countries. And that's not to say and that, that means that they, they don't necessarily have a full plate of people, but you can definitely practice law for us firms. Now, I think even working in foreign countries when they allow you to work remotely, which I think is very interesting.
And and I know [00:16:00] of several instances where people are doing that that I've worked with other in Mexico and other places where they can save money, which I think is another interesting thing. Anytime you want to work for a local. A foreign law firm one of the things I didn't put in there is I've been doing this for so long that I noticed, a lot of attorneys would go in the work in Hong Kong or they'll work in Saudi Arabia and all these different places.
And they'll start out as associates. And then they'll try to come back to the U S and it can be very difficult to come back. And that's one of the big drawbacks, I think even if you're a partner in a major law firm and say, London or Europe somewhere, and then you want to come back, you it's very difficult because you lose all of your contacts and your business, and people don't necessarily want to do business with you.
It's very difficult for partners to come back, sell so often very difficult to make partner in a foreign market as us attorney. So those are those are some of the big drawbacks. And I don't know if it's always the best career decision, because I've seen so many people that have gone over to [00:17:00] overseas and worked in major firms or even, smaller firms and things, and and been able to get jobs in different practice areas, whether it's Corporate international arbitration different types of patent law know project finance and what ends up happening to a lot of them as they get their experience in these former markets, but they're not developing necessarily their network of contact to bring in business and and it can be difficult to move back.
So those are things to think about. And and also if you're working for a us firm overseas you don't always have the kind of stability the may have if you're working in the main office of the firms. So that's something to think about. It's one thing, if you move over there as a partner, it's another thing.
If you move over there as an associate and you're relying on people in the main office to make you a partner. Another thing that concerns me a little bit about working in in foreign offices is they cannot from close just think about Moscow, for example, All of the U S firms with offices there and the attorneys contacts there.
What happens now? So that's very interesting. If you think about those [00:18:00] sorts of situations, so not every legal market and part of the world is safe as a U S think about what would happen in China in the event of a, to U S law firms with trade wars and things like that.
So many times you may be able to go to a foreign market, but the experience you get isn't necessarily going to translate and help you in the long run or your career. I see attorneys all the time. That have been partners in law firms all over Asia and in many cases, U S law firms. And then they try to come back to the U S many times I spend a long time trying to find work and it's not good.
And and I've seen the same thing with to a lesser extent with attorneys in London. And Europe, when they try to come back, it doesn't always work in most cases when you're hired, if you're hired as an international arbitration attorney in a market I don't know Dubai, which I've placed several people in there.
And I work in one guy actually got a job there on its own, I think with might've been Freshfields. But the point is that and that was fairly recently, but the point is that. [00:19:00] What if you're working in one of these markets most of the time, it depends. If you're hired as an associate you can't, you don't have a lot of career launch activity and you're not necessarily developing the contacts and help you when you want to come back to the U S and you're not, in the work you're doing may not necessarily translate.
So while it's a sexy kind of thing, or it might seem like it's fun it, it can be very dangerous. The other thing is that, if you're working for a us law firm or a a law firm native to the country you're working at, and most cases that us law firm has an interest in and really having locals work with local clients.
And and not necessarily keeping you around for for a long period of time there's visa restrictions many times, and may force you to have to leave. There's there could be language barriers, there's people grow up with each other and know each other, and that leads to business.
So I do think that it can be very difficult when people do relocate to all these foreign markets, because they suddenly have a very difficult time if they want to come back and and then the ability to stay there and develop a [00:20:00] network of contacts is very difficult.
So that's one of the. Things that I have a caution. I know all sorts of us Turners think it would be fun. And many times, when you want to relocate to a foreign country you want to do so because you're bored or you're looking for an adventure, but you should also think in terms of, what's best for your long-term career.
I would think in many cases that's not what's best, it can be good. I know lots of attorneys that have done it and been very successful, but but it's not always the best decision and not every area of the world including a lot of Asia and including a lot of Europe is this a stable as a U S legal market?
If you don't do well in the U S law firm, you can always go and you can go to and how she'd go to the government. You can go to public interest, you can open your law firm, but if those things happen, you get established in a foreign market and your kids are in school and stuff there, you don't necessarily have that option.
So that's just one thing I would caution you on. And and for me, that's that, that, that's a very concerning point. Cause I I don't like to [00:21:00] see people fail and some of the saddest stories I've seen in my career are when, people are in foreign countries and they their jobs go away and then they try to come back and they're very confused.
I You're talking about, people in the thirties and forties that do things like wave over the parents and, spend a year to an employee. So it can be scary at the same time, if it's what you want, it can be good, you have to like anything you want to look out for your self-interest and you want to do what's best for you.
And I'm just not always confident that it's the best thing I think it can be good the experience you get. But I think that you have a very short runway as an associate to become a partner in a law firm and how to set yourself up for that. And you make the contacts and that's not always the smartest thing to do to move overseas and to do that.
So those are just a few thoughts that I have I think that, realizing you're marketable, there is a cool thing and. And knowing the practice areas you can do that in is also good. I think, if you have Asian language skills, that's a good thing that can help you.
But for at [00:22:00] least, for Asia, but but just because you have the language skills, doesn't give you like a huge advantage of. And and again you have to look at kind of the makeup of the pharma, what the firms trying to achieve. Do they want to advance American attorneys and they want to hire a lot of foreign attorneys and have their own kind of independent firm.
It's just, there's a lot of things to be concerned about when you're relocating. And in these, in the, especially in American offices of foreign firms can, things can go south very fast. I Like Boies Schiller, for example, I know a year ago had, 40 attorneys in this London office.
Now it has maybe three or four. I don't know what the number is, but it's something that dramatic and these offices close all the time and, you have, obviously Moscow and and different things. And then what will happen, in the event of hypothetically say a country, like China goes to war with Taiwan, what's going to happen to all of the U S offices in Hong Kong.
And and and China. So it's just, you have to be very careful with your career and. No. And and again, it can be very difficult to make partner [00:23:00] in these offices. And if, even if you do make partner in many cases, it can be it can not mean what you think it means, meaning you're not going to necessarily have the sort of income you'd be interested in because a lot of cases, these firms pay a lot less money especially in different countries that, that's not always the case, but an example would be, a lot of European firms pay their American attorneys much more than they pay their native attorneys.
And there's a lot of resentment in those people, the American nurses that they will not advance. There's just a lot going on politically that you wouldn't necessarily understand going into it. So that's one thing that also scares me a little bit and the Yeah. And just having to sit here.
Yeah, these are yeah, so people do make partner. I think this is just some statements about people making partner in overseas offices and then you, and you can and a lot of people can do very well there, especially the countries doing well and if it's not, then things can drive carefully.
And I just, I, I do would anybody who's watching this, I would or on those webinars, Washington's the future. I would recommend being very careful because [00:24:00] there's just, there's a lot going on that you may not understand. And one of the rules that I've learned in my career is people jump into things, but they don't always jump into things understanding them.
People make all sorts of mistakes in their careers, in their lives because they do things like, they, they trust the wrong employer. They trust the wrong person, or they invest in the wrong stock or they do. And so it's kinda like that with taking positions overseas.
Now one thing I would say is if your spouse or something is moving overseas and you really want to work there then or you need to move over there for your parents or something, then that makes sense. But many times, your best option is often to try to stay employed with your firm and maybe work remotely.
This is another thing that I recommend if you really want to work in live overseas. And I think by the way if you haven't lived overseas. I I went to for part of my high school, I went to school in Bangkok and certainly lived in other countries and and I, and it's a great experience a great thing to do, but at the same time, it can also be trusting your career and a place for your [00:25:00] skills aren't necessarily going to.
Be valued as much and where you may not be able to advance. This is very risky. It's very risky. And your value is an attorney. It's not just your skills, it's the contacts you develop. It's the people that, it's your understanding of the local market the people that make you a better attorney around you and all those sorts of things.
So I'm gonna take a quick break just for maybe one or two minutes. And then when I come back when I answer questions and the questions you ask, by the way it can be about anything. People like to answer questions anonymously. I wish we had a, it's funny about attorneys cause everyone's private and stuff.
If this was like another type of career thing, we would probably have, I'd love to have people's faces on the screen and S talk and debate and stuff, but all the questions are anonymous. And then and then you can ask them about anything about if you're thinking about moving about if you're right about moving, if you are wandering, if you're from Canada, It can advance.
If you're wondering about the the state of the market and your practice area any questions you have, I'm more than happy to answer [00:26:00] about anything related to your career or personal things that are impacting your career and what to do about them, whether you should take time off all sorts of things.
And I, and one thing I'll also say is one reason I like doing these webinars is because I know that being an attorney is extremely stressful and and many times, when you're in a competitive environment you you don't necessarily have people around you that you can ask these questions because if you feel like you ask questions, it's a sign of weakness and then people will pounce on you.
And to some extent you may be right. And that's scary. So this is a place to ask questions. You're gonna answer them anonymously. And I usually try to give, as much information as I can to help. And then if you want, you can also ask, pass ask, follow up questions as well.
And I pretty much, once I start answering questions, I answered them until everyone's asked everything. know, I'm pretty much at your service and we'll do whatever I can to answer your questions.
Okay. So the first question is, can you talk about patent prosecution or general IP practices in overseas markets? Sure. So the first thing about patent prosecution, that's actually interesting and it's good and [00:27:00] bad. The good news is that tons of companies all over Asia and Europe that are trying to do things that they're patenting in the US and and they do not want to export or things to the US until they patent them.
So those country companies are all over Asia, they're all over Europe. And if you have experience from the trends in patent then you theoretically could get a position with those firms as a patent attorney or as a patent agent for those of you that aren't unaware patent agents are admitted, to the patent bar and can practice patent law patent attorneys can also be a member of the patent bar.
But our. The patent bar, but then they're also been with the regular bar. But so law firms do hire both of them both internationally and all over the US but a couple points about patent prosecution in in, and also trademark can also be marketable in different firms.
Now, one thing that's nice about patent prosecution in and in Europe and also in other countries in Asia is that [00:28:00] you can work in a lot smaller firms, many times than the big ones. So if someone's a corporate attorney, they're only really looking at the larger firms. And if someone's a patent attorney, if I have a patent attorney, for example, in Japan I may be able to submit them to, hundred-plus firms, whereas a corporate attorney in Japan, in Tokyo, it's going to be a lower number, meaning that there are a lot of opportunities and a lot of places where can work.
So that's the good news. Now, the bad news is that because patent work. is scientific and and a lot of different types of people can understand it. And most countries pay people to do patent work a lot less than the United States. What tends to happen is there are a lot of people in China and all over Asia and India and so forth that are trained to do patent law and can write patents much more cheaply than American attorneys or patent agents.
And it's very common now for patents, even for, large us law firms to have a lot of their patent work done in India and so forth at a cost far [00:29:00] lower than a a us attorney would charge. And so they can get the work done cheap, more cheaply. So as companies are trying to become more competitive what they will tend to do is they will often our or law firms are trying to become more competitive.
They will find people to do that work much less inexpensively. And and so that's what happens. And so that's one of the things I think is a little bit scary about patent law. Is it that particular thing that happens? Okay.
Okay. Do firms you work with have visa issues for attorneys working overseas So that was working from overseas. Yeah. So the firms do all have to do FA do visa filings and stuff. Most of the time now that work is done, they either hire outside companies do it for them. or The firms do it themselves.
I've never and it usually doesn't take very long to get it done. I don't know. That's not my expertise. Unfortunately I don't know but it. It's usually not that difficult. Okay. Here's a good question. I like questions like this because these are always fairly useful to have these sorts of questions.
This particular, it's a good question. And [00:30:00] the more questions you have, like this are always helpful. So this one is how would you handle questions about gaps during the interviews? So that a couple of things just that that I always cover every week and you do the job
Term, do you want the job or can you be managed Can we do better. I would take him to get better. So these are these are questions that law firms are asking themselves when they're interviewing and and all employers are asking you these questions and they're pretty much asking me the asking questions for every type of position and so forth that they have.
They always want to know if you can do the job, which means do you have the skills and the experience to do it? In most cases, if they're interviewing you the answer to that is probably going to be, yes, they can tell that from your resume. And then the next question is, will you do the job long-term so every employer's nightmare is if they hire you and you just quit.
And then what happens when you quit is or if you just leave all of a sudden is that leaves some, without anybody doing [00:31:00] the work, then they lose money. It's not good for their clients puts work in on other people and so the employers feel if you're someone that's not going to do the job long-term, and doesn't want to stick with it, that it's not really worth them to train you and to spend time with you or to hire you, especially if they can do better.
So when you have gaps in your resume, you typically need to have good reasons for that. There's a thing about the legal profession that's very unusual is. I remember after my clerkship, I think I left my clerkship and I don't know, July or something and my new job, wasn't going to start till September.
And several people said to me, something like don't have too much time off on your resume. It'll look bad. You have to be really careful. And all these people were saying this to me. And I was like, why is everyone saying this It means I don't understand the legal profession at that point. But the reason is that If you have a gap on your resume, it looks like you don't want to work and you attorneys are almost expected to continue working all the time. And and that's very important. If people feel like you're, you have gaps, then I'm going to answer your question in a minute, but I'm telling you that why that's an [00:32:00] obstacle.
Then that's going to hurt you. And because they're going to feel like you might not do the job long-term they may also feel like you might not be able to be managed because maybe, maybe you maybe you have a gap After all you got fired. So maybe that means you can't do the job.
Maybe you have a gap because you can't commit to anything. Maybe you have a gap because it's difficult for people to manage you. Maybe you have a gap because if, once the going gets tough, wherever you're working, you could just end up leaving. So you don't like your job. And then if they like you, that's fine.
But then they may also ask, can they do better? So the problem, when you start looking at major markets, like New York city and and so forth, like they have so many people that they can choose from that they can typically do better. If they have some work gaps, so someone with gaps in their resume, especially if they're not working, it's very difficult to get them jobs in large firms because the firms are just like, why would we take this risk?
So how do you handle the question of gaps? There are a bunch of ways you can do. And I don't know how, what type of gaps you're talking about, but if people ask you why you left, you should always try to have good reasons. And then you should [00:33:00] also work on your, to do the best you can with your interview skills.
Now, what would good reasons be? Good reasons would be the firm all their partners left or they shut down an office or all the partners in my practice area left, or they lost a big client. There was no more work, and so people will buy those excuses provided there's not too many of them.
And then if there's a lot of gaps, sometimes what you can do, say your resume starts at 2010, and you've had 10, you've had seven jobs and I'm just, 2010 so let's just say 25, let's just put that down just hypothetically. And you've had seven jobs or you've had 10 jobs during that period, and you're currently unemployed.
And during that time during this time you've had several resume gaps, so the way to do that, I would recommend it would be something along the lines of this, so during between 2000, 2010 to 15 or 2010 to 25, you would write something like this.
Several [00:34:00] leading law firms,
And then you would say, 1, 2, 3
Broad litigation experience, something like that, trials depositions, all that sort of stuff. Something along those lines, that's how I would handle it if it was me and thatbelieve it or not works it looks a lot better than glittering your resume with a bunch of different firms and resume gaps.
Cause then you draw attention to that. And then if people ask the exact dates and so forth, you can certainly write that down on an application later, but that's what people will focus on. Is the resume looking like that? I recommend everyone do this. I I, it works very well if you had a lot of jobs and especially if you had resume gaps, now, if you're currently unemployed, you do something like you could write maternity leave or something along those lines.
But you just need to be very careful about how you make your resume look. Cause if you make it look like you have too much going on in terms of the number of jobs and stuff, it's just. A good idea for you and it's going to hurt you. So that's how I would recommend handling that. And I hope that helps.
This is a, it's [00:35:00] a really good question. Let's see here. Okay. So this question is next question.
What are the possibilities for a New York-qualified Latin American-based attorney trying to find a position in the US EU and Asia. Okay. So that's very difficult. I think a lot of people, anybody can take the New York bar. I think, I don't know what the qualifications are, but I but I think, it's fairly easy to take the New York bar.
It's not easily passed, but it's fairly easy to take it. And so just because you've taken the New York bar doesn't mean that you're you're qualified in us law or you are Asia law. So I think that would actually, I think that's very difficult to do. And and and it would be very difficult.
I think, now the issue would be what kind of firm are you trained at? So if you were trained in a major law firm that everyone's heard about in Latin America, then that would be helpful, but if you're not then that's not going to be helpful. One of the things I would say here, when you look at these sorts of things you ask yourself, the firms are asking, can you do the job?
Can you do the job? Long-term now they don't know if you're a Latin American firm or if it's not something they've heard [00:36:00] about, even if you're New York qualified there, they're not gonna understand if you can do the job. Now, if you're at, let's say you're even baker McKenzie, which is a good firm let's just say, you're at Sullivan&Cromwell they don't have an office here in Buenos Aires or something.
Then that would probably be good and that might give you some options. But the problem with all this is is that the law firms need to see the immediate, do you have transferable? skills And so if you aren't working for a firm that they've heard of it's not necessarily going to be transferable.
And and that's one thing I would worry about, so I hope that helps, okay. What options are there. And a lot of Latin American attorneys do want to work in the US and other markets. But the problem is that you have to be they have to understand if your experience is transferable and they have to know something about your firm.
So saying I see resumes like from Venezuela, and they're like, I'm at the best firm in Venezuela but No one, outside of Venezuela, And Latin America they knows what that firms are all about, and that can be hurt. Not help you. What are the options out there after us? Big law [00:37:00] in a market like Hong Kong, Singapore, China.
So that's a great question. So again, I place people all the time from working in Hong Kong, Singapore and China back in the us, but it's a question of how much experience they have. I can think of one guy recently that I worked with that was coming from, I don't know, China. And he wanted to go back to Ohio and he got 10 or 11 interviews and 7 or 8 offers and, and not a big market like Akron or something.
And it wasn't, I wasn't like Cincinnati or Cleveland. And so the point is. It depends on the market. You're going to, it depends on your experience and what you're doing, but if you were a capital markets attorney right now in Hong Kong, Singapore, China, and you could probably fairly easily relocate back to the US even with 10 or more years of experience.
Just because the market's very good. Typically it's not as good as it is right now, but but you could, and you could probably even relocate to New York, but it depends on the markets. It depends on how the status of the market and what you've done. So there is, There are a lot of opportunities if you're in the right practice area.
Now, if you were [00:38:00] doing international arbitration in Singapore right now, you'd probably have a pretty fricking hard time getting back to the us. But if you have a, if you're doing corporate or securities or something, you would probably very easily be able to come back without much problem.
That's just because of the economy that the economy was slow. You'd be in trouble because the firms are obligated in going to hire local people first. Okay. But that's a great question. So do you have a lot of options now, if you're I was, I've worked with partners from, places like Freshfields and that have been partners in foreign offices.
And I wanted to come back to the U S and I didn't have any business. And for them, that was very difficult. But probably wouldn't be now, but I'm saying maybe a year or two ago or three years ago, it was hard, but now it's not. Okay. Is it very difficult to get a placement if I'm don't currently work for a top law firm.
Let's fix this everyone Okay. Good. Is it very hard to get a placement if I'm not? I'm currently working in a top [00:39:00] law firm. If so, how is the market for an experienced trying to get an entry-level position in a top law firm Okay. It's yeah, if you're anybody. So this is just to understand what we do at BCG.
I can place anyone, any attorney in the country. They can, could be placed. Anybody can be placed by a good placement agency. Almost regardless. Unless you have a criminal record and have never done, if you have experience in a law firm, Even if you don't you can be placeable.
But the problem is a top law firm and, and so there are just different types of people and different people can get different experiences So the way the placement market kind of works, just so you guys can understand is we rank candidates at BCG and firms between 1 to 5 and for firms and candidates and and this is based on anyway, that doesn't really matter what it's based on, but it's based on how Harvard reviews people when they're applying.
So one, but it doesn't matter if this one equals consumer-facing [00:40:00] meaning, clients are without a lot of money.
And then, and then a thousand dollars for this, one to $5,000 check they can afford to pay and sort of things, a hundred to $5,000. And then, two's a little more consumer, consume, maybe high-end consumer facing higher and swimmer with a little bit of business.
This is actually important for you guys to understand it's actually, this is the whole way the legal profession works. So I want to make sure everyone understands us
High-end consumer with a little for work businesses.
Three equals mainly corporate based
corporations, smaller to mid size
for April's mainly larger companies
or businesses, the money somewhat some concern about
in-house counsel generally.
Always, almost always.
Actually, I would say in those council, always probably news almost. You could say pretty much always almost in this would be almost always. [00:41:00] So knowing how no outside attorney.
Okay. The reason I'm writing all this down is so you can understand the types of firms that people work in. And so the first type of, and then how hard is it to play? So the first type of job that people work in would be working for a consumer-facing firm So that would be, things like bankruptcy personal injury for a small firm immigration law, things along those lines where a client comes in and they're like, if they get a bill for $5,000, they're going to be a little bit, it's going to be a big deal.
It's Then attorneys are going to have to chase money. It's not easy. So these types of consumer-facing firms, we make placements in. We give them very good. We make the It costs very and very little to hire our attorneys, meaning under a thousand dollars. And in most cases, if they pay us monthly or something, that's very inexpensive.
But we place people in consumer-facing firms. But these are Consumer-facing firms do not have a lot of money because their clients don't have a lot of money to spend, but you're [00:42:00] generally people. The second one would be Higher-end consumers with business. So there's necessarily, it could be the same thing.
It could be like, family law, but maybe a little bit more money at stake. It might be immigration for the company. So there might be integration for companies that might have more money there. It might be be some trust in the states for wealthy people things along those lines.
So these people are clients are very budget sensitive and these types of clients Is more clients are budget sensitive. And If you send these clients to bill for more than $20,000 a month at a two firm then they're going to probably balk but you could probably keep the bills here, under a few thousand dollars a month for your ones, for your twos.
They're going to be more budget sensitive. Now, when you start getting into your threes, this is the majority of the firms that people you know, and so these are where the majority of attorneys are by the way, the one or two firms. So there's nothing wrong with being at one of these firms. So it's just.
You have less access to money. These firms can not afford to pay high salaries, the one-twos [00:43:00] but we place people in them all the time. Why wouldn't we, there's a demand and when you start getting into 3's these are typically firms with smaller budgets. So this would be an example, if you have a firm in I dunno, Tulsa, Oklahoma, that's working for local businesses.
That's fine. And then they may have people that were ordered the coy at university of Oklahoma law school and everything, and they're good attorneys. There's nothing, these clients typically will have outside counsel. They they'll watch the budgets. If something's under $20,000 a month for our client to probably look at it, but generally it will get paid.
So these clients are sensitive, but not that sensitive. And this to get a job in one firm you can go to any law school in the country and get a job there to get a job in a two firm, they may have a little bit more be a little bit more s for the type of job sensitivity for the type of firm, but that's fine to get a job in a 3 firm which would be smart corporations and so forth.
Th they're gonna look at your background to some extent they're not in once outside counsel starts looking at things, they're going to be that the client's [00:44:00] going to be sensitive about. the budget When you get into 4 clients are not that sensitive. So this is where you start getting the things like, where they can send bills for 50 to 100,000.
And they're not going to balk too much that these are good-sized clients. These are your 4 firms represent giant companies. They may, but they mean they may be in cities all over the country. It doesn't matter. But they're, they're they're gonna, and they're, they're going to start having lots of concerns about your law schools.
So the majority of your AmLaw 100 law firms and analysts, a hundred law firms are going to be your 3's and 4's A lot of concern about law schools and then your 5 firms are your very best firms. So these are, the firms, you're your top, in New York and LA firms and that sort of thing.
These are your firms where people can succeed and are lucky to have represented them. So these are
I was talking to a couple of examples, so if you want to go to from like Boies, Schiller for litigation they will say, we're not going to have anything to do with you, unless you're going to spend over $500,000. They may not even say that, but that would be what they would say [00:45:00] internally, something like that to do anything and they, and, you don't need to ask, if you need to ask a firm like Sullivan in a combo what they used to do, cause they used to send a bill and it would just make a statement for services rendered.
And it would say that month, and it might say, 645,000 and there would be no hours or anything attached. It would just say you was. And you could ask for that and they would give it to you. But if you asked her to be oh, you don't trust us, think about, so these are, these are your kind of your 5 firms.
It could be, your Wachtel's or your Davis Polks all those sorts of firms. And these are very top firms. These clients are not sensitive. These firms clients are, they're not going to rip their clients off. But their clients are not that budget sensitive make you not care.
So this is, apple, whoever gets a bill, it's got billions of dollars in the bank. They're not gonna care. You know what this firm says, the forests are going to be a little bit more sensitive and so forth. So your ability as an attorney, if you want to start working in a prestigious firm, what you're basically what this is all about, [00:46:00] which is fun, is access to waterfalls of money meaning access to money.
The Mo waterfall falls of money and the money spigot. So what that means is which I think is what it means essentially is if you go to a crappy law school and you don't have good experience and so forth, when you come out of school or, a few years, you do not qualify to get access to this major spigot of money.
These are the firms that can pay the highest salaries, the fours and fives, and even the threes to some extent, and the further you move along this chain the more access you get to the money. So if you go to, a top law school and you do well, there you come out of school and you're right here there, or if you start at a 4 firm when you develop a book of business or you do really good work and you're in the right place at the right time, you get access to the five.
If you come out and you do work for a 2 firm and you do very good work and you work hard, you might be able to get into a 3 firm and then maybe from there a 4 firm. So [00:47:00] the ideas like the what you're trying to do in the legal market. And I just like putting things this way for people, because I want them to understand what placements aare bout I can place anybody in a consumer firm if they have the experience.
It doesn't matter. The recruiter can work. If good the recruiter i good, which most of them aren't, most of them only know how to do fours and fives and. But if a recruiter is good, they can place you in a one firm. They can place you in a two firm that can do all this stuff because there's a market there, of course.
But your objective, if you want to get placed in the largest firms is to position yourself to get access to the largest the to the largest waterfalls and money possible. And what's interesting is if you come out and, from a great law school and and you get into one of these firms but you're only there six months and you go to another one of these firms generally, or a year, and you have a gap in your resume.
Suddenly you might drop down to a three because no, one's going to give you access to that much money because there are things bad about your background. Or you could start at a 3 firm and suddenly develo;\p this huge book of business [00:48:00] and get access to larger and larger waterfalls and money by getting your clients and getting to pay high billing rates and suddenly move into a five firm.
I've seen people by the way, start in 2 firms and ended up in 5 firms by developing books of business and making all the right moves. It doesn't matter where you went to law school and not about, for some firms, it does, but you can get into a 5 firm by starting at a 2 or 3 firm, even a 1 firm, to some extent, if you make the right moves, but the longer, the more access to the app, more access to waterwaterfamore as money you get.
The better off you are. So everyone's, placeable, it just depends on how you position yourself. And I think it's very interesting this whole ranking system that we developed. So law firms have rankings candidates have met ranking. So if I were to look at your resume what I would do is I would rank you and then I would also, and then I would send you firms that match your ranking, and I would send you a few or 4 from, and I'll send you 5 firms, but I would also send you 3 firms.
If you're a 1 firm, I would also send you 2 firms. So that's kinda how it works when you start getting jobs and firms and stuff. If you're a BCG candidate, and if you're a [00:49:00] law firm listening to this that's how we determine who we're going to send to you as well. Okay. I have several years of BigLaw patent agent experience.
Now, 2.5 years, of V10 patent litigation experience. How realistic is getting a job remotely from Europe, not PST-EST time zones for good us firms, in either a patent prosecution or litigation. I would, there's a lot of there's a lot of very good law firms in the US that that are hire mainly patent attorneys remotely.
One of the things, if I would do, if I was a patent attorney, is if I have a patent attorney, like I have literally, it's crazy, but thousands of law firms, I can send them because that's how many law firms hire patent attorneys. You don't have to work at a V10 Patent firm, but there's or I don't understand why you have patent litigation for a patent agent, but it's but to get a job working remotely in a Pacific time zone from Europe, I don't know about that because that's a three hour, but I think it's very realistic.
I think you just tell the firms, you want to work remotely uh, lots of patent law firms because of the way that [00:50:00] work does do hire remotely. That I it's much more common for patent attorneys not to work at large vault firms than it is to for them to work at firms that do nothing but patent.
It's, I've seen patent firms before that are like three people that have so someone says to ask the question publicly. I just won't I'll just won't answer it for them. If you use your name, I won't answer the question. If you use your name, I'll just copy and paste it.
Okay. So sorry about that. Let me just see here. Okay. Any appreciable market abroad for US securities compliance attorneys both issuer and investor associated Israel, Other common law. Yeah. I would There are a lot of US attorneys working in Israel and I don't know. And they don't necessarily work for you Israeli law firms, but I know a lot of them in securities compliance attorneys.
And then in Canada there's also a lot of us attorneys working there. My, my advice I I receive a lot of resumes from Canada daily And most of them, the market is very similar and a lot of the big cities like Toronto and [00:51:00] stuff and Vancouver than just the US I they're looking for the same things a lot of times in terms of business or into the type of law school and things.
But I again from Israel I'm not that familiar with it or Canada that there does seem to be a lot of demand there. So I would, I get that and I hope that helps. What are your thoughts about energy law overseas? Let me just see here. Energy law overseas. I haven't placed a lot of people in energy laws I'm not, I'm in project finance. I have, or people that work on energy projects, but I, if you're talking about an energy law I don't I don't think I have a lot of personal, I'm not seeing their company doesn't, but I don't have a lot of personal experience placing a US energy attorneys overseas.
So I wish, I'm sorry, I can't answer that. But I would look at that. One thing I would do about would look at the jobs on BCG and and see. What you can do. Okay. So here's another question. It says, someone ask them what if the resume gaps is, are from spouses in the military?
I think that's [00:52:00] okay. But the question that, one of the things that that I always, that I recommend is that you think about when you're applying for jobs is, when an employer is looking at your resume they're asking these questions. So these are the questions that the employer is asking so much.
Money's down here, they're asking, can you do the job? Will you do the job long-term and so far. So the problem is if you've left your position in a law firm, because your spouse is in the military and then you want to work in a firm when you've come back, they're going to say what if your spouse leaves again?
And you have to be able to answer that question. And and if you say then I'll have to move. Then they're going to worry about whether you can do the job. Long-term, they're going to worry about if they can do better. So those are the questions they're going to ask. If you're in a small market and you have a very good experience, and no one can find, and they can't do better than they're going to hire you.
But if you can't do the job, long-term because your spouse is going to be moving. Then they're going to be worried about that. So I would take a screenshot or write down these questions because you always, this is how all employees or employers are thinking. When [00:53:00] they're looking at your resume, when they're interviewing you.
So you don't need to convince them that you can do the job. If you're smart, you can do most jobs but the big thing is they're at and that they can tell, if you can do the job from your resume, these are the big things they're concerned about. They're concerned about whether they think you're going to stick around based on their experience with people like you whether you seem like you can be managed and some things can often overcome.
If you have, let's say there's a total of four things that there are six things here and each one's worth five points, you could get, five points here. I dunno two points here five points here and so forth. And then, and then as you go down the line get more, more and more points and then you could get, five points here and then.
Five points here and then and then, one point here and me and they could do better, but they really like you. And so they're going to hire you. So these questions I think are pretty crucial for hiring people. And so if you give yourself points in this, when you go into an interview and just figure out how you can do that.
So I've seen people going that literally can't do the job. I've hired people before that. I [00:54:00] couldn't do the job. I've made huge mistakes, in hiring a manager. Again, I've made a lot of very good choices hiring too, but I've made huge mistakes hiring and I've hired people that couldn't do the job, but I liked, and I could be managed.
And, because of experience with other things, these are, this is the whole way of thinking about it that I like. And excuse me that I think is helpful. Okay. Let's see here. Okay. So someone just asked that just joined so Are the overseas countries that are friendly to the US law graduates and attorneys. Yeah. So the overseas countries are pretty much all of Asia and most of Asia, meaning mainly China and Hong Kong and Singapore.
And then and then also Europe and for the most part the most marketable people in those markets are going to be people that are doing security in capital markets-related work. Okay. Let me see if there's any other questions. It looks like that's about it. I don't really see any more let me just see here.
So I think that, oh, let me see. Oh, that's fine. I want to answer that one. Okay. Someone said don't [00:55:00] make the line question, answer mine. All right. I think that's it. I appreciate everyone being on the webinar today and we will be back next week. This was a interesting topic today, but not one that probably applies to a lot of people, but it's definitely an option that you should always think about.
You can think about with your career. Thank you everyone. And I will unless someone has any other questions, I will be back next week.