[00:00:00] All right, so we're going to get started. This is actually a very important talk today. Second year it's something that I was just in a meeting just now talking to some of our recruiters about this topic and just what a important issue it is. Because the big thing to understand is if you realize, if you decided to relocate to another market what you're doing essentially is making your self, able to get that many times more jobs.
[00:00:25] So if you have one market there's that many jobs there. And if you go to another market, there's, many more times jobs, there are some times, and I've changed countless careers and lives by enabling people to relocate. And it happens on a weekly basis. People that were formerly unemployed sometimes for a long time or underemployed suddenly are their whole careers in life changed, but the decision to relocate.
[00:00:49] So I'm gonna talk about this today. And hopefully we'll tell a couple stories about a relocation and then this isn't that long of a presentation. And then after that we'll take as many questions as people [00:01:00] have. But I'm excited about this presentation today, and I hope that you guys really do listen to it because it's and consider the things I'm talking about and how important it is.
[00:01:09] It's great to be able to live in one area of the country and move to another and as an attorney you really do have the ability to do that. There's certain States that are more difficult to relocate. Too than others, but look, most attorneys once you have a law degree and you're admitted to the bar even before then you have the ability to move all sorts of places and all over the world, frankly, if you're in certain practice areas and I've been doing this for a long time.
[00:01:32] And and honestly the majority of people, I think that I personally move, I don't know about all of our other recruiters, but, I would say probably 50% are people that are relocating from one market to another people that are relocated and are typically much more attractive to law firms because the law firm isn't as worried about them, maybe being a problem in their existing market or having issues.
[00:01:53] And many times when you relocate to another market you're just going to be much, much better off in terms of, your opportunity [00:02:00] the, know the ability to find things that you might not be able to find in your distinct market. And it's it's not always possible to relocate people.
[00:02:09] So I know that there's a lot of people that are international that would like to come and work in the United States. There's also attorneys in the U S in many different practice areas like litigation where relocating would be extremely difficult. And No, but for the most part, a relocation for most attorneys is definitely an option.
[00:02:26]That it can be difficult in some instances when you're relocating to an area where you might not have any ties but if you're in the right practice area and there's not a lot of people doing that, it can actually not be too difficult at home. I want to talk about different types of attorneys that that may have the most success relocating and those who won't have success.
[00:02:47] And and understanding kind of the markets where you're most likely to be, could be, find the firms receptive and and most markets, there's going to be opportunities for you regardless of whether or not they have jobs. An attorney, [00:03:00] frankly. You literally can move.
[00:03:02] Yeah. Almost anywhere you want in the country. If you and get a job as an attorney, if you know what to do. But there's a lot of factors that make it more difficult than others to get positions. I'm going, gonna talk about those today. The other thing I would say in terms of placements when I started in this business which was 1999 or 2000 over 60% of the placements that I made in one year were for people that were relocating to Silicon Valley from other areas of the United States.
[00:03:26]They could have been in Chicago or Detroit or Memphis, and there was such a need for patent attorney and not patent attorneys, but corporate attorneys at that time that almost every. Placement we were making was just, people were looking at relocating there and it was, there were just so many opportunities and it was a very smart move for a lot of people to relocate to those markets, to that market at the time.
[00:03:47] And and then and then the 2001, it changed and there was a huge demand for people moving to pick California's litigators. The results there's a lot of reasons that this sort of thing happens and and and it really [00:04:00] depends on the type of attorney you are and to the market you're relocate.
[00:04:04] Your success really is going to be dependent upon I think that the The type of attorney that you are. And and it really depends on your practice area. In terms of the practice areas, there's always certain practice areas that are really in demand at different points in time.
[00:04:17] So now's the time, for example, when corporate is in demand, patent is becoming more in demand. Some litigators are almost always in demand, but now litigation isn't demanding and, large markets and and it's generally much more difficult for all types of litigators to relocate.
[00:04:32] It's much easier for transactional attorneys to relocate. And then corporate is always a practice area where almost anybody who's a corporate attorney can fairly easily move to other markets if they have a good amount of experience doing it. And but when the economy's good, you can, sometimes even write your own ticket as a corporate attorney.
[00:04:49] And that's, I shouldn't add regardless of where you're working. I've moved people from. Do you know, three person law firms to, that didn't even go to top 100 law schools to [00:05:00] major us law firms and major markets from small markets when the economy looks very good.
[00:05:04]And even in other areas of the world, if you do capital markets, for example, corporate attorneys can be marketable and can get from parts of the world. But when the economy slows down it can also be difficult. For corporate attorneys to get a job in certain markets and then they become more marketable in smaller markets.
[00:05:20] And and the big thing I think that you need to understand when you're trying to relocate is it really depends in a lot of cases on your practice area. So I'm going to talk about some of the major practice areas today. And then I'll also talk about some niche practice areas, but in terms of litigators litigation is the the hardest market to relocate relocate with.
[00:05:41]And in order to relocate, most litigators need to have really good credentials, the problem with being a litigator and wanting to relocate is that there's just a lot of litigators. Most attorneys are litigators. Everyone learns how to be litigated in law school. And there's a lot of general litigators now in terms of specialists, litigators, meaning people that [00:06:00] do things like a risk of litigation or a medical malpractice, or even even, different types of insurance litigation.
[00:06:07] And there's all sorts of specialists litigation. If you're a specialist it's usually going to be much easier for you to relocate and than if you're a generalist and, right now it's very interesting that the market for litigators is not very good in New York city, if you're like a general commercial litigator.
[00:06:24] So you could literally have gone to, a top five law school be at one of the top 50 best firms in New York and have a very difficult time getting a position at a similar firm. Cause there's so many litigators out there, but in terms of, if you were like a medical malpractice litigator or something like that, or even insurance defense, it's the jobs won't pay as much of course, but it's going to be much easier for you to get.
[00:06:46]Lots of jobs than if you weren't. The nice thing is that if you're a litigator, when the economy slows down, it's much easier to get a position. What I've noticed is after every when the market explodes and does very well, litigation tends to slow down and then when the market [00:07:00] slows down and litigation, or when the market speeds up litigation doesn't do as well.
[00:07:04] So I think that what happens, and I don't know if this is a pattern or not, but I think when when the market, when the kind of the legal market slows down people start suing and looking for money and then corporate slows down. Law firms need money. And so I think that they get more aggressively involved in litigation.
[00:07:19] I don't know. But and lawsuits drag on for years. So litigation is always marketable, some extent, but. There's really just not it's just a much more difficult position to relocate. And and so a lot of times the other thing I think about litigators, especially if you're trying to work in a really good firm that even if you're really good at it, a lot of times the law firms can't tell that so they look at your traditional marketable skills.
[00:07:43] Like they'll look at, if you did it or ship and how you did in law school and so forth. And I think they look at that a lot more with litigators especially when they're relocating than they do with a lot of transactional attorneys corporate attorneys, for example that, where you're doing a different kind of transactional scale litigators they, the best law firms are very [00:08:00] concerned, much more with their qualifications than they are corporate attorneys and the skills to be a litigator.
[00:08:04]You need to be a writer, you couldn't negotiation skills and and and some people have those and other stone but there's just a real traditional kind of emphasis on the qualifications for litigators that are relocating. And most of the litigators that I relocated from one state to another typically have, pretty awesome qualifications that are and there's certain practice areas like environmental litigation stuff where you may not need to have as good of qualifications, but for the most part that's how it works with litigation.
[00:08:30] And. And I think that's one of the reasons that these kinds of qualifications about things about law review and chips and all that stuff. Just, it seems to be a much more emphasized than a lot of other practice areas. And and so fraternity has this then they certainly can relocate from one large market to another.
[00:08:49]But it's more difficult. It's more difficult. I also think because a lot of state courts have their own types of pleadings and then they have in, the law isn't. Most attorneys don't do a lot of federal court litigation. [00:09:00] So it's just, there's a lot of differences between litigation.
[00:09:02]And there's just a lot of them, like I said the other thing is that if you're in a very niche practice area within litigation, it can be easier, but there's just, it's just very difficult for litigators to get hired out of state it's California, for example, in New York the, California's almost impossible many times for litigators to get hired laterally especially without the bar from another state because so many people failed the bar.
[00:09:24] The, I don't know what the pass rate is, but I think for people that are experienced attorneys, it's always, under 50%, sometimes I've seen an under 25%. So it was just a big risk for law firms to hire them. And and then they have to bear all the relocation costs. And in the interim, there's always a lot of litigators locally that are looking for the same jobs that have good qualifications.
[00:09:44] So rather than take the risk most times law firms terms, because there's so many people applying, it's all about supply and demand, and there's so many litigators rather than take the risk. A lot of times law firms just don't hire them. And there's just a lot of stuff.
[00:09:57]If someone's like a patent attorney, for example, that's all, [00:10:00] I'm, that's all in federal court. And or if it's from the patent bar, which is federal so they can still work on banks. And if someone is a, corporate attorney, many times I'm not signing pleading, so they can still do work a lot of work behind the scenes.
[00:10:12] And and then the other problem with litigation is that, what's an, a litigator gets up to speed in a case they become indispensable and if they haven't passed the bar and so forth, that could be a big problem. And and just, there's a big kind of learning curve.
[00:10:25] And and you just have to be aware of different things that are involved in moving. And this is a lot of information about litigators. I realized, and I don't really need to go too much more into it. But those are some of the reasons that it's very difficult to lateral as a litigator.
[00:10:39] The next thing is with corporate attorneys. Corporate attorneys are always have always been very easy to relocate. Every month, it seems almost every week. I'm getting, interviews all over the country multiple times a week and every month for 20 years, I've placed, one or more corporate attorneys personally each month and each week we place corporate attorneys that are relocated to other markets.
[00:10:59] So it's [00:11:00] just a very easy practice here to relocate in. If you're in New York, you can relocate to Detroit. If you're in Detroit, relocate to New York, you can relocate from Miami to New York or Memphis. Your assistant, you can, corporate attorneys really have a real ability to move around and it's really like that for most transactional practice areas, by the way.
[00:11:20] So I'm going to talk a lot about corporate today, but it's similar for real estate. It's similar for patent it's similar for anything that involves transactional related work. It's It's much easier to relocate because there's just not as many people that have that kind of training and the more sophisticated your corporate training the easier typically it is to relocate.
[00:11:38]But the thing is that is always important to understand is that everything is about the law supply and demand. So like with litigators, there's always a lot of litigators out there. So there's a big supply, which means that for the most competitive firms, you have to have the best qualifications for corporate attorneys.
[00:11:53] The supply and demand tends to really fluctuate. So what that means is during a really good economy there's [00:12:00] more demand for corporate attorneys in there are corporate attorneys. And so it always happens this way. And then in a bad economy, there's not a lot of new hiring for corporate attorneys.
[00:12:09]Corporate attorneys are laid off and things just slow down and get very slow. And and because of that it becomes many corporate attorneys actually walk away from the practice of law, even ones that are in major law firms, it gets that bad. But it's always easier for corporate trainees as well to get positions if they're coming from a major market.
[00:12:27] So I have people for example, that. I recently played someone that was in London and moving back to I think Indiana and they've been a corporate attorney in London, never worked in the United States, probably got eight or nine interviews. And in five or six offers very quickly in Indiana and with firms that didn't even have openings.
[00:12:44] And so if you're coming from a big market and you're moving back to a small market, you can almost always do very well as a corporate attorney. You can even move from a small market to a major market, but it's not as easy. Certainly if you were in Indiana and wanted to move to different types of markets, some [00:13:00] Houston or something, that's going to be a little bit more difficult.
[00:13:02] But right now at this particular point in time, the market has heated up so much for corporate attorneys that law firms all over the country are hiring people from small firms and people that don't have traditional pedigrees, very good firms that you would never expect to get in there.
[00:13:15]Sometimes over the past, we were talking about that in a meeting the other day, some of the people that are getting hired now, would never even, get an interview two years ago in the firms might even get mad at you for trying to represent the firm. And now they're actually getting hired and broadened enthusiastically.
[00:13:29]One of the things that that makes corporate attorneys marketable, there's there's several things that make them marketable. But one of the things that makes them very marketable is that the skills are transferable. So learning how to be a corporate attorney and the skills that are in different types of things, whether it's capital markets or M and a, those skills tend to be a transferrable.
[00:13:49] So you can, you can do the same once you learn how to do it in Chicago, you can go work in Texas and do the same sort of thing. And it's not a very good, difficult and and so many [00:14:00] people also learn a very specialized skills as corporate attorneys.
[00:14:03] So for example, you may be responsible for just one aspect of a certain type of contract. If you're a corporate attorney and that's it's, the biggest firms and and that will make you marketable to firms that do that. And you could be marketable, all sorts of markets, you would never expect.
[00:14:19] I've seen attorneys that are only specialized in one aspect of a transaction and, get interviews and, market, you'd never expect like Shanghai and Tokyo and so forth. It's pretty interesting when when someone has very good skills like that, because you could be so specialized, you might be one of only a few attorneys in the world.
[00:14:36]That has to have experience and and sometimes sometimes if you get very specialized experience, it may hurt you because the work can be abolished and can go away. But for the most part that, that doesn't happen. Very much. But the only thing like I talked about earlier, that's bad is when the work slows down and when the work does slow down corporate typically is very bad.
[00:14:56] And and it's very difficult and people lose their job all [00:15:00] over so that's something to be concerned about. And it is bad. I've been through two or three recessions in corporate and and I've seen a lot of bad things happen at the same time.
[00:15:09] One of the things I really like about corporate, and this is just another thing is I. How about so many good experiences placing corporate people and I've seen people do so well in corporate, I had I'm just trying to think of a couple, stories, but I had one woman recently that had been an attorney at a big law firm in Silicon Valley and had.
[00:15:26] Lost her job. I don't know where she'd gotten lost her job. And and it wasn't a good situation. And she'd been out of work for six months before she started looking again. And because Silicon Valley is a very kind of sophisticated market, they would prefer to hire someone that's employed, even though it's a good market to relocate into.
[00:15:43] And so I just decided to market her nationally and, she got, I don't know, 15 plus offers working at, in smaller markets, we're talking about markets in the Midwest and, I don't know Phoenix and places like that. And so the point of this is that, she was marketable all over because there just weren't a lot of [00:16:00] people that had her experience.
[00:16:01] And I say that all the time, I see people that, may have difficulty getting jobs in one market, but just because they're training so rare, they can relocate. Anywhere, some people relocate to places like Savannah, Georgia, or anything. And if those same people were litigators, they would never get that interest, which is to me is very interesting.
[00:16:17] And it's just having that particular experience. And it's great. Corporate is a practice area, any type of transactional practice area like that. If you have the experience, it can really change your career. One other thing I like about corporate for attorneys is that. Mitigation can be difficult too, to to develop a book of business because you have to go out and pitch companies and so forth to do work for them.
[00:16:39] And and then, and to do different cases. And then those cases can go away. So unless you're doing, representing people like, Facebook and stuff that are not an ongoing litigation, it can be very difficult to consistently have to bring in litigation work. So it's hard for litigators, but corporate attorneys, what they do is they have relationships with different companies.
[00:16:58] So even [00:17:00] corporate attorneys working in smaller markets will have relationships with companies in those smaller markets. So they're always doing, getting called by the corporate clients, always doing ongoing kind of general advice for the corporate clients and quick things for them.
[00:17:14] And then in addition to that when the corporate clients get sued they'll call the corporate attorney. The corporate attorney will refer the work to their company and to their firm in hot and, we'll refer the work internally. And yeah. Law firms love corporate attorneys because corporate attorneys typically are the ones with the most business, and they throw off a lot of work to, to the real estate department, to every department within the firm.
[00:17:36]That's one reason they're very valuable because of those relationships they have. And in corporate work for companies tends to be ongoing. It's not one-off type things. Sometimes it is with, capital markets and Upwork and things, but for the most part it's ongoing work.
[00:17:50] And so that's one reason that law firms like corporate attorneys so much. And and one reason that they're marketable and it's the work itself is very, it's not like [00:18:00] litigation when there's a lot of drama and stuff involved. It tends to be very, it's very, kind of complex clerical work.
[00:18:05] A lot of it that requires a certain type of thought process compared to litigation. And it's just different. And but corporate is good. It's a very good thing. It's also it's difficult for law firms to hold on to corporate attorneys compared to litigators because. Good attorneys always have the luxury of going in house.
[00:18:21]Law firms love bringing in house companies love corporate attorneys, much more than the litigators for litigation. They typically prefer to have the work done by outside attorneys. But for corporate attorneys, they'd like to do a lot of that work internally. So it's very difficult for law firms to hold on to corporate attorneys.
[00:18:36] And most of them, majority of them going in house, whereas litigators don't have that luxury as much. And so there's just typically much fewer corporate attorneys in the market with experience and there are litigators and then patent prosecutors are always, have always been in demand as long as I've been in this in this job that I've been doing for over 20 years.
[00:18:57]They're just if you have electrical engineering or hard [00:19:00] sciences backgrounds, computer science then they're very marketable, mechanical engineering, less and bio type stuff, much less so as well, but pretty much anybody that I've ever represented as a patent prosecutor.
[00:19:10] If I work with them long enough, they'll always get a job. If they, even, if they become senior, they can still get jobs date. There's just a lot of opportunities out there for patent prosecutors and and they can pretty much always be guaranteed of finding something and it's just one of the reasons is just because of just the law of supply and demand, there's a much far fewer patent prosecutors and any type of attorney.
[00:19:32] You need to have a science background and then you need to have training and and how to write patents. And there's just not a lot. Of them. And and because of that especially in smaller markets they can be very marketable. And and a lot of the firms that do patent prosecution are you can have small firms that don't particularly Mark market themselves.
[00:19:50] Sorry. So patent prosecution is a great practice area. It's a very marketable and it's anything that's niche like that it's also a federal law. And because it's [00:20:00] a, federal before the patent and trademark office, it being admitted to the bar and stuff, isn't that important. And I relocate every day of the week.
[00:20:07]Pretty much I have patent prosecutors interviewing and markets outside of where they're from. And it's a great, it's a great practice area. If you want to be marketable some other practice areas that are important to consider our the, that the most important things for being marketable are having skills that are in demand.
[00:20:25]But also that having skills where there's very few types of attorneys and where those skills are transferable. The problem with litigation is that the skills are in demand, but there's a lot of litigators and it, the way that skills are transferable can really differ from one attorney to another.
[00:20:40] So one of the things I always talk about, and I was giving a webinar for our recruiters right before this one as I was talking about different types of Attorneys and what makes them marketable to other markets. And so anytime you're going into a smaller market which would be something like in any market, outside of a major [00:21:00] city, there's going to be fewer of you.
[00:21:01] And so there's going to be a lot, there's going to be a lot more demand for you if someone like you comes along. And and you might be like an education attorney for example, and have a background in education law. If you want to relocate from Los Angeles to Sacramento, there's probably not a lot of education attorneys in Sacramento, and you'll probably get a pretty warm reception.
[00:21:20]If you want to relocate even to Los Angeles, there's probably not a lot of it. There's not a lot of education attorneys in Los Angeles and you can relocate from Sacramento. And so the idea is that anytime there's a skill that's highly in demand and there's not a lot of attorneys like that out there.
[00:21:32]Both firms are going to be very interested in you and and that will allow you to relocate you can relocate from, all over the country to places like, Nevada, like where there's not a lot of good attorneys with certain practice area experience like real estate or, patent prosecution or education, law other types of things, because there's just not a lot of people that want to move to Nevada as attorneys and not a lot of attorneys in Nevada, the same thing goes with other smaller States like Delaware and so forth.
[00:21:58]So the more you think about where you want [00:22:00] to relocate, you need to always consider the size market you want to relocate to. Okay. The the number of attorneys doing what you want to do there and and keep all that kind of thing in mind. When you're trying to do it and, if you really want to to relocate the biggest thing you can do really is being in each practice area.
[00:22:17] So you need to just be in, you need to either be in a transactional practice area, or you want to be in a niche practice area where there's not a lot of people like you. And if there's not a lot of people like you out there, then it's going to be much easier for you to relocate. And if there's a lot of attorneys out there that are just like, and it's very common by the way, for an attorney to think that they can relocate in a in certain practice areas when they can't the final thing that I would say.
[00:22:42]And I will talk about this a little bit later as well, is that when you want to relocate you need to really look like a specialist. So law firms really don't like specialists. I'd like generalist. The problem with the generalist is there's nothing special about a generalist. Most people are, do a lot of different things.
[00:22:59] And if your [00:23:00] resume says you do criminal law litigation and real estate, the law firm no. One's going to be that interested in hiring you as a lateral. If your resume says you do immigration law then they're going to be interested if your resume says you do nothing but real estate law, they're going to be interested.
[00:23:14] So you need to take a look at your resume and figure out how to make it look like you're a specialist, because if you don't look like a specialist, it's going to be very hard for any law firm justify hiring. They hire people that have special skills or unique skills at the lateral level or if you're in law school and applying places, they hire the best new attorneys that they can find are the ones that will work for the least amount of money.
[00:23:38]Okay. So the best markets for relocation so the best market relocation can be major cities many times the, the there's a couple different things that I would say. I would say that California, it can be a good market to relocate, to certain points in time when corporate is doing very well, but and for certain practice areas, but for the most part, I don't really think it's [00:24:00] as good as it used to be.
[00:24:01] I think the East coast is always good. And Chicago can always be good, but in, in the recent past this particular article that this PowerPoint is based on this. Is not a new one and but it depends on your practice area. So when you're relocating, if you relocate to a large market, there's definitely going to be a lot more opportunities, but it may be difficult to get the, the best job possible many times there, but here's something to think about.
[00:24:27] So the state of California just the state itself represents, one six of the world's economy. So if you take the bar and move to California, it's typically going to be fairly easy to get a job in California. It's not it's definitely there's a lot of opportunity in California.
[00:24:43] It's there's I noticed I've had recruiters that have been recruiters on the East coast and they've done no, the whole East coast market. And then they start recruiting California and they think they've died and gone to heaven because they the firms are so much more receptive to people and the firms are not snobby in terms of the schools and and there's just a [00:25:00] lot more of them and there's just a lot more opportunity.
[00:25:02]So it's a very healthy, large economy. And and if someone has the bar or they're in the right practice area, they can do very well. The best markets in Cali in California for transactional attorneys, definitely Palo Alto. That market has just been on fire for forever, and it should be no surprise that's where all these tech companies are.
[00:25:21] And so you have San Francisco and then LA and orange County are also good in San Diego. Especially for transactional practice areas and and so many attorneys orange County is very good by the way for litigation and real estate and construction. San Diego is growing and good for corporate.
[00:25:38] It's good, but it's very difficult to get a job in San Diego without the bar. But it's good for patent prosecution. Other things, Los Angeles has a mid-market, so it's not as good of a market for corporate. It tends to be more litigation related for whatever reason. Los Angeles has never been a great market for corporate, but Palo Alto and San Francisco have always been great markets.
[00:25:58] They're just and I [00:26:00] never really, with the exception of some corporate slowdowns, they've always been very good. And then and it says here we serve more than a thousand firms. It's actually more than probably three or 4,000 now. It's huge. The there's just a lot of demand there and Palo Alto the whole Silicon Valley region is just very good odds of getting jobs there.
[00:26:17]There's just a lot of opportunity. The major firms there do a lot of hiring. It's just it's just a great market. And and if you have the bar exam you're pretty much if, especially if you have good qualifications, you can get a job there. And then there's Steven a lot of smaller firms and assistant great market.
[00:26:32]And it's just growing. It's when there's corporate layoffs and so forth, it slows down, but there's still it's still growing and there's, firms setting up shop there every day. There's patent litigation. There's then all the other types of practice areas that come out of it, it's just a great market.
[00:26:46] And and it's it's a good market to relocate to the whole region and San Francisco's a little bit more competitive because people want to live in San Francisco because it's a city. So people seem to like it a little bit more. And it's not as spread out. And so people, the [00:27:00] people like San Francisco a lot more, so it's a little bit more difficult.
[00:27:03]And and people come to Palo Alto from all over the United States. If you have experience in corporate or in New York law firm, you pretty much, good New York law firm be guaranteed a job there. And in terms of the, what it's like living there, it's there's a lot of commuting.
[00:27:16]The costs of living are very high. It's extremely high. It's more money to buy a house and, the Castro district of San Francisco, which, it used to be considered like one of the worst areas. It's more money to buy a piece of property there than it is on the beach.
[00:27:29] And Los Angeles County, it's just the price per square foot can it's very expensive, but property values go up a lot there too. So I know a lot of attorneys that bought property when they were young, they're, right out of school. And now they're like multimillionaires just from the property, not from the practice of law.
[00:27:45]San Francisco is more competitive. There's a lot of people that are drawn to it. It's just much easier to get a job in Palo Alto. And then corporate, okay. Said for San Francisco, Palo Alto, corporate law IP, patent prosecution employee benefits, immigration other things like [00:28:00] that tend to do very well there.
[00:28:01]But there's just a lot of demand there. There's a demand for labor and employment attorneys, there's demand for all sorts of attorneys in that market. There's a lot more patent prosecutors now there than there used to be. And it's a little bit more difficult to get a job as a patent prosecutor and those markets now, but it's still not that difficult to compare it to it's still, a much easier market.
[00:28:20] And the thing about California in general is. But berms are just more open. I don't know how to explain it. They're more open than a lot of East coast firms. East coast is a very sophisticated market and it's very it's very kind of stayed and there's not many risk-taking taken there.
[00:28:36] This, there are in the firms in in the Bay area for, in particular, in Los Angeles and that it's there a little bit more risk averse and but in California, more people get jobs. And then, your other markets include, on the East coast would be like New York city, Washington, DC, Northern Virginia, Boston, Philadelphia.
[00:28:52] Those are all good markets for people relocating. It's very common for attorneys to move from Washington DC, to New York and New York to Washington [00:29:00] DC. Washington DC is very easy to wait into a lot of times attorneys in Washington, DC won't get jobs in Northern Virginia or Maryland.
[00:29:07]People move from Boston to New York in New York to Boston all the time Philadelphia as a good market. Pittsburgh's a good market. All these markets up and down the East coast are pretty good. There's and people tend to relocate more back and forth from those markets than they do from like the West coast to them or even the Midwest.
[00:29:26] But I moved people from the Midwest to New York all the time in New York to the Midwest and those markets all the time. And new York's a good market. The thing that's interesting about New York and Washington DC is a lot of times, if you were relocating to Chicago, people in Chicago will be like why do you want to live in Chicago?
[00:29:43] Why are you moving to Chicago? But if you want to relook at New York or Washington DC, the attorneys here just assume you'd want to live there. Like, why wouldn't they never even questioned, like where are you going to live? Why would you live here? They just automatically open up.
[00:29:54] And and there's not a lot of suspicion of outsiders. Like there might be in a lot of smaller markets and Boston [00:30:00] a little bit, but Philadelphia, a little bit, but not as much and another move. That's common too, that I forgot to mention this people move from Los Angeles to San Francisco, the San Francisco Bay area and the Bay area to Los Angeles and orange County and stuff all the time.
[00:30:14] And they're not relocations, but but they are, an eight hour drive so they can be fairly powerful far apart and and then in New York and Washington, DC are good markets for people relocating Washington DC with corporate experience, New York is it's interesting the way New York and Washington DC work.
[00:30:30] So if you look at firms in New York city and you look at the bios, all the people there the majority of them contain things dealing with corporate and corporate related work. And then there's always a much smaller litigation component. And if you look at the bios of the people at the big firms in Washington, DC, the majority of them are going to have a lot of litigation related and policy and sometimes IP related stuff.
[00:30:52] And then but very few corporate people. So it's almost reversed the way they work. But that's how it worked. And then and then these are just some observations [00:31:00] about a long period of time in terms of how New York typically works when the economy is very good and this pattern from 2000 repeated itself and maybe 2012 and then again is repeating itself this year.
[00:31:11] So people that want to move from smaller markets to New York. Now we're getting lots of interviews. And the same thing with California with corporate related openings as well. And and New York has always been transient and it's people can relocate there if they have good qualifications, but New York is very credentialed and especially in the large law firms, is, are, they are real credential snobs.
[00:31:31] And they take it that in your experience very seriously. And the thing is, there's so many attorneys that want to work in New York, that if you have something a little bit off or wrong with your background then your firms won't even talk to you because they're, they have so many other people that can talk to that don't have anything from in their background.
[00:31:46] And even if it's not technically something wrong, if it looks like there's some suspicion about it or it doesn't look quite right. And the law firm just won't have anything to do with you. And Chicago is interesting too. It's it's a good market to [00:32:00] relocate into more so than New York or Washington, D C the firms do like you to have some sort of contact or contacts there.
[00:32:07]But you don't always need it. But most people that relocate to Chicago tend to be from the Midwest or have contacts in the Midwest. And it's just a it's just the way that markets always work. They may have worked in another market and becoming back there. They tend to, when they relocate there at their attendance, what I've noticed more so than with a lot of other moves, they tend to relocate for family, with a family or a significant other and join them there compared to other markets.
[00:32:31] And I don't know. Why that is the the Chicago market will often not slow down as much. Many times, the big markets, like New York and stuff, and the Bay area and Houston and others will slow down during recessions and Chicago, many times we'll kind of power through with the continual hiring.
[00:32:49]But it's a little bit more conservative relocations. It's not like it's they tend to look at people a little bit more closely and and I've seen a little bit more receptiveness to [00:33:00] litigators and people relocating to Chicago. Then I have another practice areas.
[00:33:03]But most people that relocate to Chicago, I think do have some sort of connection. And then my favorite markets to relocate people into really out of the major ones are the smaller markets. And and people in smaller markets are able it's very easy. Many times to relocate, to smaller, to midsize markets.
[00:33:20] So that's places like Seattle, which has gotten more popular recently, but our Portland or different areas of Arizona, or, for a while Austin was considered a small market that Florida, Michigan even grand Rapids, Michigan Ohio, like just all these markets, you, new Orleans all these markets out there.
[00:33:39]Alabama, like I can think all day long that it's very easy for attorneys to many times to relocate and those markets and people are surprised all the time. I had one guy that was in New York that on a whim decided to apply with me to affirming. And he was a litigator and had been looking in New York for months and decided on a whim to And not a great litigator, but we're not [00:34:00] getting any interviews and decided on a whim to apply to a firm in new Orleans, like a big from there and got a job.
[00:34:05] And it was a dream come true for him. Cause he was taking the bus like two hours a day, each way, and the city and back, and having to get up at five in the morning to catch the bus. The thing is that many attorneys do not choose to work in smaller markets. I think work in a small market, in my opinion is one of the smartest things an attorney can do because there's not a lot of competition for the same jobs, if you're a good attorney.
[00:34:27] So law firms are much less likely to get rid of people. People tend to stick around very long. They tend to develop contacts in the community. They tend not to have to work as hard to hold onto their jobs like you would in a major market and many times have much better careers than you would otherwise have working in major markets.
[00:34:43] And I tell this story all the time, but when I clerked clerk for a federal judge in Michigan and Bay city, which is near Midland and Flint and some other places. And and I remember all the young people that would come in that were, my age back then working in the firms there. And this is over 20, 25 [00:35:00] years ago, all the people that were working there.
[00:35:02]And they're still with the same small firms, most of them and they were young and I used to, meet them all and we would go out and stuff. I don't think anyone I know from law school, isn't the same firm, except maybe the velvet corn from my class and a partner at a, it's the Fermi joint, but it's just, the people stick with the, from the smaller markets are less likely to get rid of you.
[00:35:24]Your career is more likely to develop people, protect each other. They're not always getting overwhelmed with applications. And so I just really liked small markets and I if I had to do it over again and I really wanted to work somewhere in a law firm for the long haul.
[00:35:37]I would seriously think about it. I just think attorneys are often much, much happier when they take jobs in smaller markets and they just seem to have Much better careers in the long run and stick with it and not the same stresses. And the people often have in larger markets.
[00:35:52]I can't say enough good things about them, and if you have specialized skills then many times it's much, it's not as difficult to move to a smaller market. [00:36:00] Any smaller market you can think of is a place you could potentially work, especially if you have contacts in that market. Any type of family there, or someone you knows from there, you went to school there, or I don't know what it would be, but smaller markets are great.
[00:36:14]And and the thing is to talk about supply and demand because a smaller market is not receiving as many applicants and the more specialized attorney you are the more likely you are to be able to get a job there because people like you don't come along very often. And there's just it can be a feeding frenzy.
[00:36:30] I've seen instances where. I have a special specialized type of attorney and I decide to market them to I don't know what an example would be like Omaha, Nebraska, which is a real legal market. And there might only be like eight or nine, really good firms there.
[00:36:45] And then there's probably like another 15 that are pretty good as well. And, someone gets, 15 interviews if they're the kind of person that doesn't come along very often. That's how it works in small markets. And then you tend to often have if the market, if the firm is established, there's [00:37:00] firms in smaller markets that have been there a hundred plus years, then you're also going to have a lot of employment stability, cause they're going to be working with a lot of the top firms there Seattle's a good market.
[00:37:09]It's always been a good market. That firms are trying to open offices there. Most big firms are, it's a great market. Denver's a good market. That's not a smaller market. Phoenix really isn't a smaller market anymore. But the, just your qualifications will really make you stick out in smaller markets.
[00:37:24] And so things that you might not things that, the depression that you might be feeling about the job market, trying to work in a major market it can be just if you're in a niche practice area trying to get a job in a major market your odds of getting a position in a smaller market.
[00:37:39] Are just astronomically better and you're actually gonna probably be a lot happier. And your cost of living here is going to be less and your taxes are going to be less. And it's just, be able to buy a house and have weekends off. I just don't get it. People are, the attorneys are so like driven.
[00:37:54]Especially many times once it went to great law schools and, and are competitive with their classmates [00:38:00] and their, I don't know, but I really liked smaller markets. I see people relocate to smaller markets all the time and just have incredible luck. I've seen recently family law attorneys relocating from, just these little tiny markets or big markets to little markets.
[00:38:13] I, we had one person, there was a bidding war for her in in a small market in Wisconsin who was a family law attorney. And it's just I love small markets and if it was me. And you have any concerns about what market you're going to work in? One thing I would say is most of the work that people do is just sitting behind a desk.
[00:38:29] It's not is it really worth it to, to go through all the stress of working in a big market to say that I work in this market and then have to go home to a studio apartment and every night and work crazy hours and be stressed out and have health problems.
[00:38:42] And I don't know. Or would you rather be happy and a big fish in a small pond? I, attorneys that are, if you're an attorney in a market like Los Angeles or New York or Chicago, like I was talking to our recruiters just now. And I said, know, no, I was talking about how common attorneys are.
[00:38:59] And I [00:39:00] literally, I could walk out, I could walk out my front door and, almost any where in Los Angeles and finding an attorney within three minutes. It would be very easy to find an attorney. I could walk out into the street and just start waving my hands and say the first person, who pulls over and shows me there proofs, they're an attorney I'll give a thousand dollars to, and I would probably find someone within two, like within a minute, there's attorneys all over.
[00:39:24] If you work in a smaller, more, literally a minute if I would just do that, if I was to do that on the street of New York, it would probably be less than 15 seconds before someone would, maybe not even that. So the point is when you work in a smaller market, attorneys are actually respected and, people will call you counselors.
[00:39:41] It's very funny. Everyone will say, you're an attorney. Everyone will respect you as your attorney. All sorts of people will ask you questions about just various legal disputes that have say they think it's remarkable that they know an attorney. It's true. And and they'll feel very proud to know an attorney and they'll respect you and you'll get the best tables.
[00:39:59] And it's very funny [00:40:00] w what it's like being an attorney in a smaller market compared to a big market and in New York, or, Los Angeles, no one cares what your attorney it's actually probably, it's actually probably a bad thing. Like it's, because it's going to say that you don't have a huge business.
[00:40:12] I don't know. But it's very funny, so smaller markets are a great place to work. It's a stop, and you're respected for being an attorney and you have more opportunities. It's easier to get business. You have to work fewer hours. You there's so many benefits and it's easier.
[00:40:27] You have more employment security many times. And and and and the only benefit I guess, is you don't get to go to the opera I'm admirable, but No, one's going to the opera now anyway, so I don't really, you don't have to have a big sports team. Do you have to watch on TV, but but in some of these markets you do, but I, if it was me I would seriously consider smaller markets.
[00:40:46] I, I see, people going into smaller markets all the time and really their life never being the same and being much happier. And it's, I don't know what the market is for you. It could be Boise, Idaho. But there's just a lot of great [00:41:00] opportunities out there for people.
[00:41:01] And and the problem with with very large markets is large markets are very efficient, so they will they are going to squeeze everything they possibly can out of you. And if they can't do it, they'll find someone else they can do it with and they'll get ready. And and you're much more expendable and the value systems different, things are more expensive.
[00:41:19]Taxes in New York are very expensive. Taxes in California are very expensive. And so the firms and the w we'll squeeze everything out of you, they can the cost of living's higher the amount of work you need to do to to pay, to cover the expenses for the firm is more more is expected out of you.
[00:41:36] You need to be more of a specialist as opposed to a generalist. There's all sorts of. They can find people very easily to work there because there's attorneys everywhere. There's so many attorneys in large markets. I wish I could even, I don't think I probably would have a very hard time.
[00:41:53] Going into any restaurant in in the Los Angeles area on a Friday or Saturday night and being the only [00:42:00] attorney there, if there's more than 25 people in the room, it would be probably almost impossible. It might happen, but there's just so many people willing to take your job and stuff in large market.
[00:42:09] So if you go to a smaller market, you can really develop a niche. You can develop a group of people that will protect you. And that's what happens in a lot of smaller firms. Those people worked in smaller markets. They worked together with the whole career. I'm not saying that a smaller markets can Cecilia the best for everyone.
[00:42:23]Certainly my whole career and and most of the placements I make are in the largest markets. And so I don't think there's anything wrong with them, but what I would encourage everyone on this call, whether or not you're a law student or you're an attorney looking for a jobs to think about w what is important to you because the value systems and smaller markets and your longterm opportunities are often much different.
[00:42:45] And the drawbacks of smaller markets are often the fact that if you do lose your job it can be difficult to find a new one many times, but often not. If you do something wrong you're, very bad, then your career's going to be you're going to have to move many [00:43:00] times. If you if you want to go and house, that's going to be more difficult to do there, but th those are some of the negatives, but I believe that the positives.
[00:43:08]Outweigh them that far too many people stress themselves out and are unnecessarily worrying about how they're looking at other people's eyes in large markets and really ended up having a very unfulfilling lives and careers. That might be much different if there were some place with different value systems.
[00:43:25] That's just my thought. And and I think I'm right about this. Cause I've been watching people practice law for over, for several decades now. And that's what I've noticed. And there are people by the way in large markets that are extremely happy and and that are doing very well and and are at the top of their game and it found their place and small firms and midsize firms and large firms and are happy.
[00:43:46] But for the most part, I think the happiness quotient and how do you enjoy practicing law and in the, in April to stick with it, the longest is typically much higher in smaller markets. And final point that I'll make is I see [00:44:00] people go to New York in particular all the time and Palo Alto to a great extent.
[00:44:05]And these very talented attorneys that go to the best law schools, the good jobs and the best firms, and have had the best lives. And they go to these firms and many times they work there and then and then they get so stressed out by the fact that it's impossible to make partner, no matter how much they work, nothing is going to matter if that unless they bring in a giant public corporation, they're never going to make partner that they never have time for themselves that they, that all they feel is criticized and, and that they never get positive feedback.
[00:44:32]And then these people drop out of the practice law and then. For decades, they talk about, Oh, I worked at such and such a big term, but they never practice login or they do something that's beneath them or their self-esteem is shot. And and I don't like that. I don't like when the best people that have their confidence shocked when that wouldn't have happened to them necessarily on this small market, if they'd gone there, they would be a superstar.
[00:44:54] And I had a couple interesting things happen when I was in college. I know [00:45:00] one guy that that I was friends with was, this genius from from from a a smaller town in Ohio, I think. And he went to universe Chicago and and his first semester he took he'd gotten a five on his AP chemistry and all this stuff and gotten great sat.
[00:45:14] So his first semester he took the hardest chemistry class and could that the school would let him take and he got a D and and he realized that he wasn't going to go to medical school. And all this stuff was, because of this horrible grade. And then he just dropped out and started smoking weed all the time and and never recovered.
[00:45:30] And I've seen I saw another guy in my college that was the valedictorian of a small high school and and Oklahoma that also went there and that also, and and he ended up getting some men not being able to compete and not being ready for it. And and ended up turning into a alcoholic and eventually killing himself.
[00:45:48]The point is that and these are sad stories, but the point is that, when you put yourself in an environment that's extremely demanding of you and where you and where you're not going to get the kind of feedback you want, it can [00:46:00] hurt you. And there's no reason that you have to keep up, if I want it to suddenly become a professional football player at my age.
[00:46:08]And I based my whole identity about being able to do that. And and I tried to try out for a major league football team. I couldn't try out, but if St I really was able to, I would get destroyed. And if I based my whole identity on that would be a real mistake. I would be much better off trying to play club football at a local, something rather.
[00:46:29] So people just, you don't need to be in the biggest market. You don't need to be in the biggest firms, you don't need to do all this, and you often times are going to be much happier when you seriously consider trying to work in those types of markets. The only thing I would say is that, I help people relocate all the time.
[00:46:46]The majority of the people that I work with if you're one of our candidates listening I think one of the smartest things you can do is always add additional markets to your, with us. The more markets you're looking at, the better off you are. And and [00:47:00] and I think that I certainly understand relocating people.
[00:47:03]One of the thing I did want to bring up that I think is important to understand about relocating is many times when you're looking in your your market, the law firms are a little suspicious of you. So if you're like you say, you're located. Yeah. And Cleveland and you're looking for a job there law firms in Cleveland, if you start looking for a job in Cleveland are going to wonder, is this person having problems with their existing firm?
[00:47:24] Is there something wrong? Are they going to be problems with up here with us, if we hire them and they're going to be a little suspicious, but if you are relocating from Cleveland to Chicago and you say, I grew up in Chicago or my my husband or my wife is from Chicago when we want to settle down there, all of a sudden the firms in Chicago and think, Oh, wow.
[00:47:41] Okay. That's great. The person's coming here. They're from here. They're likely to settle down. So that's awesome. The more interested in you, so law firms, like people that are relocating and especially when you have a connection to that area and and as a connection, what I mean by that is you want to, if you have some family there or if you [00:48:00] have live there in the past or or there's just some reason for you to be there law firms really like that, and that gives them many times a really good reason to hire you and bring you on they, they want that connection and the connection what they're looking for is they're looking for someone that's going to come there and settle down and hopefully not leave because it's a lot of work RNP.
[00:48:20]Okay. So I'm going to take a quick break. And and then when I come back just as many questions as everyone has, whether it's about this or anything else with your career and any questions, and then we'll go from there.
[00:48:32]All right, we'll get started. Just give me one second here. I'm going to pause something one second.
[00:48:38]I'm gonna stop sharing my screen for a second here, because there was something I did want to open a chair with. Yeah.
[00:48:43]All right. So I will start with the questions I did. And I was gonna let me just see here. Yeah. And
[00:48:49] one second here. Sorry.
[00:48:50] So let me get the questions here and then I will get started. Cause the first question is okay.
[00:48:56]one of your articles. I saw that you mentioned a top 10 law student who had an [00:49:00] allergy. I would probably not be a great hire for a smaller firm. I can understand that, but as someone who wants to move up as much as possible, how can I get my foot in the lower rungs of the ladder? I don't know why someone, I would say, this, I've certainly written a lot over the years.
[00:49:11]Why? I would say that someone that you know, Oh, so how else cakes, can you get your lower ones of ladder? Okay. The big thing that I always recommend for people is a lot of people do not follow my advice for whatever reason, and it's not. The best idea, but the best thing you can do is if you're always going to try to move up, that's okay.
[00:49:30] The law firm will make money from you when you show up and they start billing you up by the hour. And and so that's fine and you're trading your time for money. So it's not like you owe any type of allegiance to, to stay wherever you go. And you can certainly keep moving up to better and better firms.
[00:49:46]What I would recommend is to, to really, to try to apply to as many places as you possibly can. And there's so many firms out there where anybody can work. Every market there's countless firms where you possibly could work. Now, I don't [00:50:00] know if you're a law student or not, but if you are a law student then you certainly can potentially find lots of different places to look and and you should be looking at as many possible firms as you can.
[00:50:10] And just doing the research, not necessarily applying to the places where everybody else is applying. One of the things I don't like about job off, but about job openings is when there's a job opening, what tends to happen in a lot of firms is everybody's applying to the same job openings. And so if everyone's applying to the exact same job openings then your odds of getting the position are much worse than if you're not applying to a job opening.
[00:50:33] So you're often better off just applying to firms that don't have openings because if they don't have openings, you're the only person that's showing up there. And it's much easier to bring you in and hire you than it is to, go out and recruit for someone and have to review all sorts of resumes and stuff.
[00:50:48]That's one piece of advice that I have, I hope helps cut see her. These are all great questions and just ask as many as you guys have, and I will continue answering them. Let me see here. I completed a one [00:51:00] year clerkship in a random small market. Would that be enough to help me break into a major market?
[00:51:04] If I'm already at a top law school, but I didn't do a relationship. Yep. That's enough. So if you're at a top law school and you work as a summer associate it's okay. Especially now during this pandemic if you do a one-year clerkship, a federal clerkship in any small market yes, you can get into a big market.
[00:51:21] Now, New York city and DC are very difficult markets to break into for litigators because those are markets where there's an oversupply of litigators, but there's plenty of big firms and other markets where you could potentially work if, and but certainly New York is one of them. And there's lots of small markets where you could work as a federal clerk.
[00:51:40] The reason law firms like federal clerks is because it gives you the opportunity. It's a prestigious honor, of course, but more than anything you're working with a judge for a year and they're looking at their over real, in your work. You're right. Doing a lot of writing. And and it makes you a better writer.
[00:51:56]I don't know where I would have been at. Honestly, if I, I've [00:52:00] done having done a clerkship was actually very helpful for me. And I did it in a random, smaller market and I got a lot of good training and it was a very good thing that I did. I think it can make you definitely a good hire.
[00:52:11]Okay. What are some things I can say to a smaller firm from a top 10 graduate to convince them to get hired? So the thing with the smaller firms is in every market are smaller firms. If you went to a top 10 law school in almost every market there's going to be smaller firms with their other graduates of top 10 law schools.
[00:52:28] It doesn't matter where you are. You could be in upstate New York, you could be and I don't know the suburb, 45 miles outside of a major city where there's not a lot of people, but there's top 10 graduates at firms all over the country. So if you work at us, if you want to work with other good top 10 graduates or top 20 graduates, you can always find a position in a firm where there's other people like you.
[00:52:49] And you can say that I'm looking for, to work in a smaller firm, to, to less stressed to, a more collegial environment to everything. And you have to think about what it is [00:53:00] about why you'd want to work in a smaller market. But if you can come up with good reasons for that, then I'm sorry, in a smaller firm that, that are going to appeal to that firm, then that's good.