[00:00:00] Today is a pretty important topic. It's about things that you shouldn't have on your resume and. This is a huge mistake that a lot of attorneys make. And honestly, good portion of attorneys and law students really do not get jobs because of the stuff that's on their resume.
[00:00:16] And part of the problem, I think is that, what you may have been led to believe is a good thing to have on your resume compared to what you Do you have on your resume are often much different. And and I think a lot of it comes from, you many attorneys get ideas when they're in school about, having certain causes and things or.
[00:00:39]They believe in certain things, there's a whole push towards diversity and similar things. And that's all good. And there's good things, reasons for that. But at the same time you need to make sure that your resume is reflective of what a law firm really wants and what most employers want.
[00:00:58] I just, one second. [00:01:00]
[00:01:01]Sorry about that. They're doing some work in our office today, so it was loud. But okay let's get started. So the first thing is in this webinar, what I'm going to do is I'm going to teach you about the right resume that you need depending on the type of job that you're seeding and knowing what to leave out.
[00:01:17] Hold on one second, guys. Knowing what to leave out is really just as important is understanding kind of what you need to put in your resume and then what needs to stay at there. And honestly, like I've seen so many attorneys. When I say attorneys, I see resumes on a daily basis of attorneys that, I know are not getting jobs and interviews because of things that they're putting in there.
[00:01:38] And. Really a lot of recruiters don't even understand these roles because it there's a lot of subtlety to it. And and you really have to know who your audience is and so forth. And, it's, most of the people that you're interviewing with will many times, not tell you that they have issues with you because of this the things that are on your resume.
[00:01:56]It's important to really have a good understanding of what I'm sharing with you [00:02:00] today. And I'm gonna really show you today some pretty exciting information about how the most prestigious law firms out there will think about you think about your resume and what you need to have off there to to get jobs.
[00:02:13] And I've discussed this particular topic. And this is based on an article with a lot of people. Law school, deans hiring partners at lots of major law firms. And they've they said that, what you're about to learn today is stuff that, they never can say. But is really very important.
[00:02:28] And you're about to learn all this right now. And then one thing I did want to tell you is that the end of the presentation I will we'll take a quick break and then I'll come back and. Answer any questions you have, whether it's about this or any other career issues you have speak to really answer.
[00:02:45] Anything that you have a questions. Okay. So what's important to understand is, with your resume, really what you're doing is you're applying to go to work for a law firm and to be their employee. And your resume is really [00:03:00] an application. And really the only thing that you need to be communicating on your resume is that, you're ready to work at the firm and you're capable of doing it.
[00:03:09] And and really what it's about is about coming to work in the law firm fitting in and putting in a lot of hours. And that's that's what they're most concerned about, the partners that you're working for, especially if you're like in the plant, when you're applying for associate jobs or you're applying for.
[00:03:25] You're for law school or whatever. They need soldiers and they, they don't really care like a soldier. His job is to be a soldier and it's to, go into the market and fight. And it's not to have personal interest or things that are important to them versus your job is to really put your head down and be part of a group and do what the group needs.
[00:03:46] It's not to no one, I hate to say this and I thought this when I was actually young associate, I thought that. All of my interest and the things that I did and social causes and things made me very interesting and significant [00:04:00] and, people will certainly smile and say, that's okay, but they're really more interested in what you can do for them and whether or not you can be a soldier.
[00:04:08] So I'm going to talk a lot about that today. And, your record really speaks for itself, having a lot of extraneous material on your resume, doesn't always, it isn't necessarily going to make you much more attractive and the type of extremist material that I'm talking about today.
[00:04:24]Okay. Th the thing you should understand is that everyone in the legal community knows what going to a school like Stanford me. So you don't need to have a lot of other information on there or being, a second-year associated a major law firm means, and, everyone knows what going to university of Chicago law school means and what Kirkland and Alice means.
[00:04:43] And so a lot of times, What people will do is we'll try to put in a lot of extra information that will make that something else. Just one second. I'm sorry.
[00:04:52]Okay, sorry about that. Okay. Yeah and it's really, the most important thing, especially for large law firms is really what they're all they [00:05:00] care about is your work experience and and your S your academics and the more senior you get, really they care about, if you've had moves and they may care about some other things, but they're really most concerned about just the major things on there.
[00:05:12]There's nothing really to distinguish you other than that, and the things you put on there that, you, it gives you just an opportunity to mess up. So that's what people do is they tend to have really good resumes and then they end up messing them up by putting all sorts of things on there.
[00:05:26] And I just see it all the time. And I see it actually, a lot of times from some of the best attorneys that you would think would get the best jobs, they just took, put too many things on there that show that they're more dilettante than soldier. And and the worst thing you can do in many cases is, puff up your resume.
[00:05:43] And the best thing you can do is strip it down. The more stuff that's on there, the more reasons people can find that to hire you. It gives you more opportunities to make hypos, it gives you more opportunities to make to show you're not a good fit for a job. And and once, if you learn one thing from this today you'll learn that and [00:06:00] hopefully understand it.
[00:06:01]Okay. So as I told you earlier, most law firms are looking for soldiers and and people that have a lot of stuff on there that show that they're not soldiers typically. Need to prove something. And a lot of times they will leave if they don't get a lot of praise. Many times people that have, very strong social beliefs and so forth will become very angry if they see the firm not fitting into that.
[00:06:24] And, at every point in time, certainly when I was much younger and an associate. There were people that were against big firms and they would go to work there and they would always find things wrong. And then and, people that have, special needs will, many times unnecessary attempts from clients, fate, they may find fault with clients and and those sorts of people may leave for other reasons, because they're still trying to figure out who they are and.
[00:06:48] Really deep down, you need to understand your job is to be a soldier and not necessarily to be that your interest and who you think you are as a person and so forth. If you want to work for most large law firms [00:07:00] aren't no, isn't really that important. And if you're in a large law firm, what it requires is a lot of selflessness, you need to as a, as an an associate and a junior associate, and even as a partner, many times, you need to let other people take credit for your hard work.
[00:07:16]Many of the best partners in law firms become. Very powerful in law firms because they're willing to share credit and, you need to learn how to do that. And and you need to, put in a lot of time in a law and law firms and work in a selfless manner before you're going to get rewards and and large rewards come to people to put their head down and work hard for a long period of time.
[00:07:37]And you need to be, seen as part of a team and not, some, individual with all these. So interest and and someone that's willing to work hard with no immediate benefit and, not leave at the first sign of trouble. And these are all things that the law firm wants to believe that you will be.
[00:07:55] And so what people do is a lot of times they put things on their resume that actually, [00:08:00] and I'll talk more about that in a few minutes, but actually shut the loss. You're gonna be a problem. So if the law firm looks at your resume and it looks like you're not going to be a soldier and you're going to look like an asshole it's just going to make it very difficult for you to get hired.
[00:08:17] And no smart law firm wants to hire people. That there are two into themselves. It's just not about you and it's never about you. It's about the employer and the sooner people learn that typically the better they'll do. Schools and depending on where you're from and where you live and so forth you have all sorts of ideas about what's important, but when you're going to work for someone else, you just remember that they have ideas about what's important too.
[00:08:40] And that what's important them is. Hiring people that are, can be on the same page and not necessarily people that are marched through to their own tune. I look at literally hundreds of resumes each day. This morning I probably looked at three or 400 of them. And and I see, so many resumes that have a lot of worthless information and it makes me [00:09:00] sad.
[00:09:00]It's just, and the reason is because, it's just, most of it is not that important to, to to law firms and and many things that you put on your resume will actually get you disqualified rather than hire. And the problem is that, especially in the law firms, that pay very well.
[00:09:15] There's so many applicants for each job. There's, there could be, if a law firm has an opening for a certain type of attorney, there literally could be, hundreds of applicants and all they're doing is they're looking for the resumes that don't piss them off, and that looked the best.
[00:09:30] And so if you have stuff on your resume that, that looks like it could upset them, then it's a problem. And here are the six mistakes, that I see that ended up creating the most problems for attorneys. And these are the six big ones. But if you understand these. Then you're going to be likely to really understand how not to make other ones.
[00:09:50]So the first one is putting way too many personal details on your resume. And and a lot of attorneys will make their resume actually polarizing. [00:10:00] And and they'll say things like, the market's horrible, I'm not getting any interviews and really many times it's not that the market's bad and set your resumes bad.
[00:10:08] And so here's some of the personal details that I see and I see them, all the time, and this was just when I wrote this, it was just in one particular week that I saw these I saw a person, puts something on there about being a Hunter and outdoors man. Obviously, there's nothing wrong with that.
[00:10:23] And certain parts of the country and I used to live in Virginia deer season was a big deal and everyone was excited about that. In other parts of the country they certainly do not want to hear about. People that are killing animals on their spare time it may indicate to many people that you're a Republican or not a Democrat.
[00:10:40]And it can create all sorts of political problems. It's just not a good idea, I guess it could be a good idea in certain parts of the country, maybe, but in general putting that kind of stuff, anything that polarizes people, it's not a good idea. A lot of times people will put things about the religion on their resume.
[00:10:56] So they may say, they're a member of a certain church or, [00:11:00] very active in that. And I actually was talking just yesterday. I was thinking I was talking to a a partner, a very. Successful partner in Seattle in a big firm. And he had something about that on there. And and so I don't know at that point, he was much older in the seventies, but at the same time it's you probably don't want to put this stuff on there.
[00:11:20]People I've heard, people, have been part of groups where people have made fun of Christians or they made fun of people, of different religions and or, in the end they think negatively about certain religions. And so you just want to keep things off of there because you don't want to make that an issue many times people want to emphasize things about diversity.
[00:11:38] So they'll say they're member of the gate law students association and so forth on the resume. And there's nothing wrong with any of that. Think that Most law firms are happy to have anybody of diversity, but at the same time when you start advertising that on your resume you're automatically potentially, alienating yourself from people that are very conservative just as if you [00:12:00] put you remember the first Baptist church you may be alienating people that are very liberal and, you just need to be careful with all this stuff and you need to make sure that you don't put anything on your resume that, that rubs people one way or the other.
[00:12:13] You're just cause you have to remember that you have to appeal to all audiences. And if people think you're part of one tribe and not another, they may have some issues with that. Law schools urge you to put things about being part of whether you're gay or, or not on your resume, they also, or urge people to put things about their race on their resume and and believing that's more likely to get hired and And, and people to put that on the resume typically think that they're more likely to get hired in general.
[00:12:42]I, and I hate to say this, and I'm not saying this in a negative way, but the best applicants typically do not put things about the race and so forth on the resume, the ones that are the strongest, and if they, the ones that are weaker tend to do that. And I don't know why that is. But I don't know that it's a good idea [00:13:00] to broadcast.
[00:13:00]Your race, your ethnicity, and so forth on your resume. Sometimes a law firm may have been sued for racial discrimination on. They may have preconceptions about non-performers of a particular race, whether or not that race is whatever it is. And it's not just, blacks or gays or, some people hate Germans.
[00:13:18]It's just, there's just you just want to be careful. There's just, there's all sorts of preconceptions about different types of people. And to the extent you can blend in you're much better off Muslim law students association. It's the same thing I remember after September 11th, there was a I had a really good Muslim candidate.
[00:13:36]And that had all this kind of stuff on his resume. And and he couldn't get an interview and I just, thought it was bizarre because all my other candidates that were similar to him who gone to really good schools and good firms, or get an interview, so that for him Jewish law students association, I think that there's not always a good idea to put that on there either.
[00:13:56]It certainly can help you in some firms and hurt you and others. It's just [00:14:00] anything that could potentially alienate anyone is not a good idea. And, obviously the country has lots of different races and sexual orientations and religious groups and so forth, but just, making an issue out of any of this can hurt people and saying you're a missionary.
[00:14:16]A lot of times people believe that Mormons hate gays and and until the 1970s, I think, blacks were actually barred from being part of the Mormon priesthood. So that may alienate, alienating, gays and blacks. And it's just, there's all sorts of issues with putting all these issues on there.
[00:14:35] And just being careful so you want to, to the extent you can it's really just a good idea to limit anything to do with All these things that that society teaches us are important and they are important. Diversity is important, but it's better to really dig to get in the door based on your background and and not to make this an issue because while it could certainly help you when this stuff comes [00:15:00] out later people any us as a general rule need to be careful about this sort of thing, just because you don't want to risk alienating anyone.
[00:15:09]Sometimes people will put things that they're and this is very common among older people. But sometimes people will write that they're a married mother of free, and or something along those lines and, it's okay. I guess to put that on some, but if you want, but it's just, there's, people.
[00:15:25] We'll have preconceptions that if you're married, then you know, you may not be, have kids, you may not be able to work the same amount as other people that your kids are going to take priority over your job. That. Some, someone that's sitting in an office may want to hire someone that's single.
[00:15:40]I don't know, but it's just, you just don't want to put anything that kind of casts you in one way or another. People typically do much better when they leave their personal life off of their resume and allow that stuff to unfold later. The other thing I don't like, and this hurts a lot of people.
[00:15:57]Kind of weird email addresses now. I [00:16:00] haven't seen anything like this in the past, in the recent past, but I've seen people put things like sex love and rock and roll at Hotmail and things like they're just, just really strange email addresses that I think are funny.
[00:16:12] But really the law firms do not like you don't want to hire someone. That's a email address. It says we'd love her. And you can see, these are all kind of old email addresses and things I've seen in the past, but I just remembered them. And when I saw them, I remember, joking about them with others in the company, but.
[00:16:27]You don't want law firms don't want that. You just need to have a professional email address. Sometimes people will even have their work, email address on their resume. That's not a good idea. Just the the, you just, first of all, you shouldn't be doing a job search with your email address.
[00:16:42]And if the current employer is paying you you shouldn't be looking for a job at work and getting emails there or, and you should be concerned about what your current employer thinks about. You should never do that. It's just not a good idea. It's crazy, but people actually, I've seen people, email employers from the personal email address have [00:17:00] seen from the work email address and and you just don't do it.
[00:17:03] It's just not a good idea. The other one that people do a lot. Is they'll put it they'll have an email address like Harvard EDU or Stanford EDU or Princeton or Chicago or Yale or something. Typically people that do that. And I'm not trying to be rude here. But a lot of times they went to one of these places for college, and then they went to a lousy law school.
[00:17:22]But it, but it's just, you just want to, or, who knows, but you just, you don't want to really advertise the fact that you have based great, this great pedigree a lot of these attorneys and a lot of the best attorneys actually didn't go to good law schools and, and really, being successful as an attorney does not have anything to do with where you went to law school or where you went to college.
[00:17:42]It has to do with drive and ambition and Following and understanding kind of social rules like I'm talking about right now and your resume and what to say and what not to. So just be careful. A lot of people that didn't go to good schools resent people that didn't go to good schools.
[00:17:58] And it's very common, for example, for people [00:18:00] that went to Harvard for college to say they went to college out East or whatever. Cause they don't, which means I went to Harvard, but but they just don't want people to. Get intimidated, but by where they went or to create an issue, so they just don't make an issue out of it.
[00:18:14]And you just don't wanna, try to, make, draw attention to things like that. It's just many people went to state schools, they went to, they just, it's just not smart. You just want to leave that off made because it's just, it's.
[00:18:29] It's, it just reminds people every time they email you, that you went to a great college or law school or something, and it's just, they just don't enjoy it. And there's nothing wrong. Of course. We're going to any of these schools, but it's just, it can really, it can upset the wrong people and it's just not smart.
[00:18:44] Just don't do anything that can make people dislike you. The other thing I've seen a lot of times is people will list their private high school on their resume. Tell you that they went to St. Paul's Exeter, Andover, and so forth. And, and those are actually very good schools. And and frankly, I think people that come [00:19:00] out of some environments like that end up doing very well and life, and then law firms, because I think that they just are accustomed to high level achievement.
[00:19:07] And they learned to get along with people and so forth. But the idea is that, being an attorney is a very middle-class profession for the most part. And and people become attorneys because they want to work for other people and serve businesses and so forth. And a lot of times, the majority of attorneys went to.
[00:19:23]In a public high schools and dreamed of being an attorneys because it was a way to get ahead. And so anything that kind of alienates people and shows them that you came out of a wealthy environment, which it doesn't always mean you did if you went to one of those schools, but a lot of times it does it certainly can alienate other people and.
[00:19:39]It's just not the best idea for you. So it's just something I would recommend avoiding. Other times people will put things like there were a member of Mensa. I've seen that a lot. I don't see it as much as office I used to. There's nothing wrong, but taking an IQ test and doing well on that. Of course.
[00:19:55]But it's just, if you were, if you are in the top 1% and. Why [00:20:00] didn't you go to Yale law school and why didn't, it's just, it just draws attention for the wrong things. And and it shows that you're, you believe you're very smart. And then and it was a way that, you may piss people off, I've had to are kind of overachievers and they've had to work really hard to get to where they are.
[00:20:14] So you just need to be careful about that. Personal blogs are another one. Sometimes people will put that on there. And then you go to the person, a blog, and that may have, I saw one woman that was funny. She had a personal blog and then it was, she wrote an article every day about different cooking meals and stuff.
[00:20:31] She was cooking and, you wonder how she could possibly work in a large law firm. So it's just a way to get in trouble. I once saw a partner they had a blog Lou, didn't you know, during the law firm merger nakit hire because of it. He had something about not wanting to be an attorney on there and it's just, you need to be very careful about all that stuff and try not to have it on there.
[00:20:51]Other things that that are risky. If you're applying to an employer in a different part of town then having your personal, your home [00:21:00] address, if it's far away can be a bad thing. Cause I, when I look at resumes that come into our company, if I see a resume that's far away from us I won't even talk to the person because I know.
[00:21:11] That they won't, there's no way they're going to come into work every day. And it's what happens when they convince me I still realized the whole thing was a mistake. It's not a good idea. And and so if it's far away from the office, you need to be careful trip.
[00:21:26] A lot of times people will put trips and travel and so forth. They've done and all these trips they've taken and they're very proud of that. You need to be careful about it. Wow. Okay. So that's that. So just, the big thing with this, the personal details.
[00:21:40] So just to be careful and just to think about, would this alienate anyone, a lot of times people will put these personal details on there because they want to show that they're an individual, they want to show that, they went to a good, they're proud of their high, private high school, or they're proud of whatever, but you just need to be very careful about it.
[00:21:57]The second thing that people tend to put a lot on [00:22:00] their resume. It was a relevant work experience in education and it's really a bad thing to put anything on your resume, not related to practicing law, it's just it can always be fatal and and and it's usually not a good idea.
[00:22:13] So some examples. That I've seen resumes in the past have been things like leaving a law firm and starting a business and know where their description of the business anytime you start a business law firms are it's very difficult to get back to a law firm.
[00:22:29]And because it just shows you're not interested in practicing law. You're probably going to leave the law firm again, you'll come back in a fit or somehow you get back someone that starts their own business almost always comes back to a farm and then plots or escape.
[00:22:44] And and they're also a threat the partners, because the partners realized that the person's, business mind, as opposed to mind of doing the work. And then therefore they may be thinking about stealing their clients instead of force. It's just never a good idea to put that sort of information on your [00:23:00] resume if you can avoid it.
[00:23:01] The other thing that a lot of times people will do is they'll become practitioners and things as a business pretty much when you have that on there can be. An issue it's not always an issue, but it's, there are difficult for attorneys as solo practitioners to get back into the firms and to affirm.
[00:23:18] And the reason is because you typically don't work on the same quality matters. Your work isn't overlooked as carefully. You're not gonna, you may be right because you made the plot in your state future and all those sorts of things. So you just need to be very careful about having that on your resume as well.
[00:23:36]And then a lot of times attorneys would be very proud of businesses. They may have started before going to law school or becoming an attorney. And there's certainly nothing wrong with that. But one of the things that I've noticed in my career is that if an attorney has run a fairly successful business before they went to law school, the odds are pretty good that that they may end up leaving again.
[00:23:57] And and starting some sort of [00:24:00] business, being an entrepreneur is much different than working part in a law firm and putting your head down and, an entrepreneur is always looking for a better angles and situations and so forth, and that's their nature.
[00:24:11] And so those kinds of people can be bad. Hires and, one of the things I would say to you is if you think a lot about starting your own business and as opposed to, practicing law than you probably should have your own business and probably be doing that. I remember Knowing a guy that, makes $500,000 a year in cash, which is probably more like a million dollars a year, making washing windows in the suburb outside of Detroit.
[00:24:33] I, a couple of pickup trucks and about a thousand dollars in equipment. And he hires people, minimum wage to go cleaned windows and there's about six months a year. So yeah. You can make a lot of money doing all sorts of things, but, would you rather sit in an office and drive to work every day and practice law?
[00:24:49] Or would you rather have a, sitting in an office and have some guys driving around Washington windows? I would rather be an attorney, many people have this entrepreneurial bent and actually would much rather wash windows. [00:25:00] It's up to you, but if you can ask yourself that question, Would you rather do something like that or would you rather be an attorney?
[00:25:06]That could probably be your answer right there. Because would you rather make a million dollars a year doing something very simple or would you rather make much less doing something, much more complex? Sometimes a lot of times people will list the fact that they took some kind of business course while they're on a law firm and got a certificate.
[00:25:25] So they'll say they did some, financial accounting, or they did something else and and they'll take all these types of classes and and that's just not a good idea. It doesn't show unless it's directly related to what you're doing, it doesn't really show your commitment to being an attorney.
[00:25:40]There's the idea of the tax attorney that took a bunch of tax law classes. Now that's actually a good thing, but if you're an attorney and you're taking classes that are not related. To what you want to do. And you put that on your resume, that just shows you're plotting your escape.
[00:25:53] And so people do that all the time and it's just very risky. A lot of times people will put all [00:26:00] sorts of information about what they did is undergraduate. People will put the fraternity. That's probably not a good idea because there's a whole group of people that weren't in fraternities at resented returner days.
[00:26:10]They may, you may put your varsity sport, which people tend to like or president of a non-polarized Institute, an organization, which is good, but, you should think, something like president of the chess club probably isn't that bad, but if you put, it's probably not that relevant, but if you were really good at it or the debate club or something, and maybe okay.
[00:26:27]Republicans against abortion is probably not a good idea. And so just remember that. Organizations in college and so forth about your race, religion pro-feminist or socialist or political, or, or conservative lenience, or just probably not a great idea.
[00:26:43] And you just, when you do that, you're forcing the infer, an interviewer to choose sides, and if you just think about, what's going on in this country and what goes on in other countries, Wars and protests and and killings and so forth, always occur because of people's, passion [00:27:00] for one religion, political Affiliation or for racial reasons.
[00:27:05] And it's just, it's a nightmare. You'd have to leave it off your resume. You just don't want to participate in that. If you're trying to get a job another things the people do is they'll put all these jobs that they may have had it. Hired a law school. That they believe are good.
[00:27:19]There are some jobs you can put on there, like working in a top accounting firm or investment bank, maybe a good idea. And there's nothing wrong with that. But if you're doing some nuts, very serious job, like you're a waiter nanny or something along those lines, that's not going to impress employers high values, jobs with a high value to society, which could be the military, a policemen and firemen and so forth are probably fine to leave on your resume, but you just don't want to leave anything on there that shows that there's ever been a period of you being a slacker and not really putting your time and stuff to their highest and best use.
[00:27:52]Another thing that people do is they will put a bar exam on their resume of a state they're not currently working. So it's very [00:28:00] common. For people that are in New York to come out to California, take the bar exam while they're working in New York. And then they look for a job later in New York and they leave it on there and people will wonder, why they're doing that.
[00:28:11] Or someone from Illinois will take the Florida bar exam. Unless you're have experienced actually working in that jurisdiction, having a a different bar in your resume is probably not a good idea, because it's just going to show that, there's a possibility that you would potentially want to move to that area and not be a long-term employee.
[00:28:32] A lot of times people will take time off between jobs in some cases, years, and other cases, decades in my experience You know what happens. And I hate to say this cause I don't want to upset anybody, in most cases, if a woman, has kids and so forth and takes, more than a year off.
[00:28:48]There's a difference between taking like couple of months off three months, four months off, or, a year or two or three years what typically happens is. No, they will, come back and not stay [00:29:00] for long or they'll come back to a job. And then they'll realize that they have to be accountable.
[00:29:04] So then they'll try to find a job where there's less accountability and, and that's understandable. If you're trying to raise a family and you have all these responsibilities, the problem is Taking too much time off. We'll just show the law firm that, you may not be a hundred percent committed and they'll look for someone that that is.
[00:29:20] And because they have a lot of options, you just need to be very careful put people will also put their class rank and grade point average on their resume. That's also something that's always a good idea. Many attorneys are very proud that they got a B average, if law school was difficult for them and or or.
[00:29:36] We're in the top half of their class. And the problem is this will just always draw attention to the fact that you're not really at the top of your game and that you weren't the best to wherever you are. And just remember that most law firms always have options of hiring really.
[00:29:53] Really good people. And so why would they hire someone that isn't at the top? They just don't need to. And so that's [00:30:00] something to think about so typically, if you went to a top 10 law school then, you can top 20%, you can list that on your resume.
[00:30:08] But I typically don't even recommend that. If you're in the top 10%, you can list the, that. I think Columbia law school has Harland Fisk stone scholars, which may be, or the top third or something, which is a nice thing. People obviously stop, but, unless you did very well there's really no reason to list the top 11 to 25.
[00:30:28] Top 10% is probably okay. Listening to top five is even better. If you went to a second tier law school, pop 5%, third tier top 5%, and then fourth tier, if you're applying to big firms and so forth, if you're. If you're the top of your class, like one through five, that's really good, in general, you don't want to put your class rank on there unless you did really well.
[00:30:47] And it doesn't law firms aren't necessarily going to hire you because you did really well. They're there most of the time, especially for hiring laterally, they're more concerned with your experience than how you did in law school. If you. Draw. If you didn't do [00:31:00] really well, not listing a certain type of performance on there, it's probably not in your best interest.
[00:31:07]The other thing that people will list on their resume is. Just, and these skills that everyone really should just always have and that really makes you isn't that impressive to people. So sometimes people will say that they understand Westlaw or Lexis, or they're proficient with Microsoft word.
[00:31:22]Just not a good idea. And for eDiscovery attorneys or certain types of e-discovery software that you may want to list, you really don't want to blissed this sort of stuff. If you're, high school graduate and you want to work in the records room, that's fine.
[00:31:37] But all this stuff has just presumed that you understand. And then the other thing people will do sometimes is they'll list their law school grades on certain classes. And if they, if you, sometimes people will list that they got an, a in contracts and a B an a minus and corporations, and then that would be the Alto, and, and then they won't list the rest of their classes.
[00:31:54] And then people will just assume that they didn't do well. And it just shows you may not be big firm material, or [00:32:00] really understand how to market yourself. Other times people will also list theses that they may have written in college or anything that's unrelated to the practice law.
[00:32:10]And I don't understand why people do it. If if you're a patent attorney, you can list, a science paper and that sort of thing. But most attorneys aren't really that intellectual, it's a very kind of, cut to the chase profession where you're expected to boil ideas down.
[00:32:24]I've seen attorneys put things on the resume you know why corporations are cheating Americans out of a middle-class life. They may have done and things like that. And that just immediately shows you're on one side or another separate proms, black reparations all these things are can potentially alienate people and and then sometimes things are just, very intellectual, like Play-Doh versus Socrates, the foundations.
[00:32:48]All these sorts of things will, can turn people off. Just imagine. You're, an attorney and, you're working 50 hours a week for, decades and for demanding clients and no one, has time for this [00:33:00] kind of thing. So it's just, you just want to be careful and and not do anything polarizing.
[00:33:05]And the other thing that I would say is, you need to realize that depending on, for you, when, most professors in schools and stuff will have an agenda and they'll push it on students and and you get rewarded for parenting that back. I certainly experienced that in college and and and they will give you good grades if you believe one thing and won't, if you're not another, but it's just you can't you don't want to reflect that back to it's just a little bit different when you get out in the working world and you just need to be very careful.
[00:33:34]Other times people will put stuff that's just completely rigid Nicholas on their resume that everyone does. Litigators will say things like they responded to Scarborough, conducted legal research wrote memos and things. And it's just, everyone knows. Every litigated us next.
[00:33:48]The only thing I would say is, you can put things on there. If you drafted an appeal and the us Supreme court or. That's fine, but other than that, pretty much everyone knows what a litigation associate at versus [00:34:00] Forrester means. They know the type of experience you got.
[00:34:02]If you were taking depositions, arguing motions and doing things that are a little unusual for someone at your class year to be doing, then that's good. And and if you have very specific experience in a certain practice area that's Relevant, but in general you don't need to add that stuff.
[00:34:18] Really on, on your resume. Talking about, very simplistic things people typically do in that practice area, it would be no different than a waiter. Like riding waited on tables on their resume. The other thing that people will do is we'll just do a crazy formatting things and and content box.
[00:34:33] And I, I just have no idea why people do that. Sometimes people will you use crazy fonts and colors put pictures on their resume. And the law firms for the most part have very conforming people are, can you gather at the job's fairly dry? And if your resume looks odd then then you're going to stick out and people are going to having not want to hire you.
[00:34:55] So you need to be careful with that. Sometimes people will do other things. This is very [00:35:00] common when people go to resume shops and certain resume companies. They'll put all sorts of keywords at the top of the resume. I have no idea why, you know why, I think maybe it's important.
[00:35:11] They do that because they assume that. The is going to be searching through using a keyword searches to find certain words or something. And it's just, you don't have to do that to a law firm. They know again, just keep in mind, like they know what a certain law school means.
[00:35:26] They know what a certain firm means. They know what everything means. You don't need to do that. It's just, this really messes people up. The objective is another weird one. You don't really need to do that. If you do that, it's going to hurt you. You may have a personal objective but that, it can come across to yourself.
[00:35:43]I just saw someone raised their hand. I'm happy to answer any questions. I'll answer these at the end. But yeah, so you just, you, everyone, is assumed to have an objective, so you don't need to really worry too much about putting that on there. The law firm, you can put your objective and discuss what you [00:36:00] want in the cover letter, but having it at the top of the resume is just kinda, it's not considered a good idea.
[00:36:07]And you just need to be very careful no one really wants to see that in your resume. Another thing that people do is they put reference available bond request on their resume. Of course you're going to have references. Every law firm most law firms will check your references.
[00:36:23] If they want to, and they will ask you for that references. Don't. Put down that you have references because they will assume, if you're interviewing for a job, that's paying, a lot of money that you're going to have some references, your references are typically where you worked and where you went to law school and your experience.
[00:36:39]And then they will check this stuff. So don't put that on your resume. And then sometimes people will put summaries on their resume. Things like I really educated corporate attorney currently practicing in a law firm ranked for 32nd largest in the world. This is stuff that everybody can see when they look at your resume, they don't need you to tell them that.
[00:36:58]And it's insulting. And [00:37:00] then sometimes people will put things like. The, fearsome aggressive and tenacious litigator able to easily bomb a client's and opposing counsel. I don't like these summaries but I have noticed, and I will just say that that some very successful partners in their LinkedIn profiles and other things will we'll have a statement about themselves and make themselves a little unusual and unique.
[00:37:21] But they will put AF after their name and and you know that if you're a partner that's maybe a good way to, to help you, make yourself stand out. But in general, it's not the best idea. And again, so you just need to be careful about what you're saying.
[00:37:37] And saying that you're Ivy league educated, it's just drawing attention to something that may upset people. If you're doing that in Minnesota, Minnesota is a great law school, if you're doing everybody went there, it's just, it doesn't make any sense.
[00:37:49] You just need to be careful. You have to let people. Reach conclusions about you on their own. You're better off keeping them wondering, about, you and about different things and [00:38:00] trying to reach their own conclusions. Then you are forcing a conclusion down their bat.
[00:38:05] People like to reach conclusions on their own and not be told how to reach conclusions. Other than the thing is having a resume longer than one page Honestly even, regardless of how much experience you have, your resume doesn't need to be a much longer than a page.
[00:38:19] You can have your experience on one page and your education, and then you can certainly have a deals and transaction sheet. If you're an experienced attorney, I recommend that every attorney to the extent they have do try to Described the work they'd done. So patent attorneys and, list of patents you maybe worked on Work in a real estate attorney deals and transactions, litigators, cases and so forth, or, you've worked on, these are all very important by the way.
[00:38:45]But these are supplementary pages. So this would be something that would come after your resume. The resume doesn't need to be longer than one page. And if it's longer than one page, it's just, it gets confusing. For employers and they really honestly can reach conclusions very quickly.
[00:38:59]If [00:39:00] you're at a firm, and you've been there, a certain length of time and you're in a certain practice area and went and, they that's really all, they need to know. They don't need to know all the super fellas information for the most part. The other thing people will put their picture on there.
[00:39:13] You shouldn't have it on your resume. Law firms will look at your picture. They'll go to LinkedIn. They'll go to no, your law firm website or wherever social media, and they'll look at your picture. They almost always do that. But it's just not something you really want to do, not in your restaurant.
[00:39:28] The other thing is people will do is they'll put their interest. I like interest sections but for in general, like a law firm, isn't too concerned about your interest. The thing I like about them is that, when I interview people and they have interest on their resume, it does give things to talk about, sometimes.
[00:39:45] And people might be interested in animals or cooking or, Different types of reading and volunteering. And I think those are all nice things. When you start getting things like horseback riding, polo and golf, which a storage bin things that, Wealthy people did, you [00:40:00] want to be careful.
[00:40:00]I generally recommend leaving them off even though I liked them. Cause it can look a little fluffy and I've noticed that typically the most successful attorneys do not have that on their resume. Not to say that I personally don't mind them, but I think you just need to be careful because any type of interest can upset people and or you could rub someone the wrong way.
[00:40:20] So just if you put polo on there, some of the polo on there resume, I would think they were an ass, but that's just me. And that's, cause I'm not part of that society of people that play polo, but at the same time No. I just recommend being very careful writing about, reading or, anytime you put interest on your resume it can really it can be polarizing polo and golfs and example would say a candidate that did that.
[00:40:43] And he talked about, being a member of a club where the initiation fee was a quarter million dollars a year. And, it was just not something that most law firms are comfortable with. He just needed to be careful about this stuff. And that's kinda how I'd recommend the intersection you [00:41:00] need to, if your interest show that, you spend a lot of time in those interests outside of work.
[00:41:03]I saw a guy yesterday with his resume and this is actually funny. He had something in there about how He liked taking performance enhancing vitamins or, and working out and building his body up. And which I thought was actually pretty funny, but I don't know how that's gonna, would rub a law firm.
[00:41:19]Really, and I don't know if that's a good idea. Sometimes people will use inappropriate words, tones and make mistakes with dates, they can tell a lot about you, by the way, when they, by the types of words and things you use. So as a general principal, you don't want to use big words on your resume that not everyone knows.
[00:41:37]The most, the best attorneys are able to communicate ideas, very succinctly with very few words, very directly without using big words. And and they're able to bond and communicate with a lot different types of people. Judges and other people are not interested in your big words.
[00:41:55]You're being hired to communicate very. Clearly and [00:42:00] and so you need to be careful with that. So just don't use big words, use very direct words that everyone knows. No one cares. If you have a big vocabulary, not the other things is sometimes a thing is sometimes people will like to call themselves hard workers and detailing and.
[00:42:15]No, if you're working, trying to get a job with a big firm, you better believe that you have to be detail oriented or hard worker. So there's no reason to put words like that on there to describe yourself. That would be like a professional boxer describing themselves as aggressive and hard hitting or, it's just assumed so you don't want to wake in your profile with a bunch of those types of adjectives.
[00:42:35]Many times people will just write a lot about about themselves or they use a lot of words and things can be much more concise. So you need to learn how to edit and you need to learn how to use very few words on your resume. And if you use very few words, it's going to show, you can edit your work.
[00:42:53]And you have enough confidence yourself. You don't need to overdo it. Sometimes people put testimonials on their resume from superiors and [00:43:00] others. This just not a good idea the most confident attorneys do not need to do that. And you don't need to have others validation or even clients validation.
[00:43:10] You just, it's assumed, so you shouldn't put testimonials on there. And yeah. The other thing the people do a lot of times is they will make, they'll have a lot of misspellings and and so the I've just seen lots of screw ups. I've served, the Denver between discreet and discreet or, these are just some examples here.
[00:43:28]And people make these mistakes all the time. You need to read your resume very closely. You need to use spellcheckers need to edit them and look over them because people can tell a lot about how detailed and what kind of attorney you're going to be based on how your resume's done.
[00:43:43] The other one of course are spelling errors. That can get you not hired. A lot of times people won't use exact dates they may just use years as opposed to months for their for when they worked in a law firm. If there was a period of unemployment and they will just hide things with dates and [00:44:00] so attorneys are, trained to be, monsters at going after, small detail.
[00:44:04] And so the second they see something that looks a little weird, those zoom in on it. And what you were trying to hide will look even worse. I see People on a weekly basis that have made mistakes where they'll have to, the same date for two different jobs or they'll have a date that indicated they graduated from law school before college.
[00:44:22] And it's just, this is the kind of stuff that attorneys are paid to do. They're paid to be extremely detail-oriented and you need to be very careful. With the dates and just double check the stuff and go back. And sometimes what's useful to do. I had to learn to be very detail oriented and I had the experience.
[00:44:38] It was great of working for a judge. It was extremely detail-oriented. When, when I got out of law school and that taught me got me really prepared to work in law firms. And the thing was is that. Most attorneys have to learn this, but you have to be extremely detail-oriented because one, one sort of mistake, can, hurt a client.
[00:44:58]And just missing one thing can hurt a [00:45:00] client. And so what I typically would do is I would look at everything and I would study as carefully as I could to make sure there were no errors. And then after doing that, I would go back and maybe take a break, for an hour or something, and then go back and look at it again.
[00:45:13] And then you can see things. Your resume just needs to come across as really good. And and with no errors and improved and the language needs to be tight. And that, that when you do that really well, it comes across and it communicates and people know it when they see it. And as much time as you can put into your resume, the better another thing that people will do is a lie or exaggerate on the resume.
[00:45:34]I don't understand this. I saw a woman once that went to Fordham law school and did great there and worked at a major us law firm. And I placed her in another major us law firm. And then she came to our company again and she had a different law school on her resume since she went to Columbia. Yeah.
[00:45:49] I have no idea why someone would do that. She touched you would get more offers or something. You can't lie about anything your law school or your cause you'll always get caught. Think most partners [00:46:00] now, probably more than 20% of partners when they're looking to move Firms will, we'll talk about the amount of business they have and they will tell the truth about that.
[00:46:09]Sometimes people will lie about hours, they build many people times will lie about why they're leaving. And you just have to be very careful. If you're aligned on your resume you will often get caught. Especially if you put hours build in your resume, because then people will just come back and they'll, if I'd ever got out, unless this person didn't leave, build that many hours, if you did, you should put it on there, but you shouldn't lie.
[00:46:30]And you just shouldn't lie. If you have issues that you feel like you need to you need to just work harder, so you don't have to lie in the future or, or would just get, maybe, figure out why you're lying, because it's not really gonna make a big difference for you.
[00:46:44]The problem is there's lots of attorneys they get hired in law firms, byline. And I've seen attorneys go to work and law firm actually people go to work in law firms, or aren't even attorneys said they were attorneys. I've seen that happen multiple times. And the problem is that, that when it [00:47:00] happens, it can be very serious.
[00:47:01] So it's just, if you're lying about monitoring and monitor things, you're probably not going to get caught the major things you will. If you lie by your hours, you're probably never going to get caught. But you need to be careful because people will talk.
[00:47:12] So if you had that, you build 3000 hours on your resume and then someone says, I heard he worked really hard there and the person says, no, they, he didn't get any work. It's just can hurt you. Partners that lie about the amount of business they have get a bad reputation.
[00:47:25]So you just need to be careful. That's all. And and, and and just try to be truthful because in general, people are more likely to hire you if they like you. Then because of them, because of some line, your resume and people like people that are vulnerable, When I meet people and they are really just, they, aren't the best applicant for the position.
[00:47:43] And there's someone that has much better qualifications, but they're very honest with me. And they tell me that they're trying hard to improve and, and you can trust them then. Then that's a really good thing. And when you can trust someone and they're honest with you, and then you really liked them a lot.
[00:47:57] And then, because people like people that are vulnerable, they [00:48:00] don't like people that have to be perfect. And so that's one of the things that I always think is that, if you can be vulnerable then that's a good thing. And then the final one, this is an easy one. And then we're done.
[00:48:09] And then I will take questions after a short break as many questions as anyone has, and we can talk about any of these sections you want to as well. It's just saying anything negative about your former employer. Lot of times people we'll have negative statements on their resume about their former employers, and there's really no reason for that.
[00:48:24]It's just that, especially if the law firm's been in business for hundreds of years or more, it's just, are over, 50 years or something. It doesn't matter. It's just if you say something negative about your employer, either on your resume and your interview, the law firm is going to believe that you will say something negative about them eventually, too.
[00:48:39]So that's it. And so just be very careful about that. There's nothing wrong with the firms going out of business or having major problems with just saying your there were issues there, but you want to never make it about you about the firm. One of the things that was interesting is when I was growing up, my mom just, she wanted to retire.
[00:48:55] She had a job with the government and she'd worked for them for two decades. And and she was just [00:49:00] bored working for the government. So she was living in that kind of drab, we're, w we're living inside Detroit, which wasn't a good job market at the time.
[00:49:08]She didn't have a lot of experience other than being a civil rights investigator and teaching art history. And so after months of not getting interviews, she de