[00:00:00] Today's a fun webinar. And this is a message that I've been trying to get through to people every year. And no one, a lot of people don't listen to me. And I, if you remember this advice today, whenever you're looking for a job, I hope it's very helpful to you because looking for a job this time of year is actually one of the smartest things anyone can do.
[00:00:18] So I'll tell you some stories and and then after I'll take as many questions as anyone has really about anything. So I'm happy to talk to you about anything you want with your legal career or vice versa. Okay. So let's get started. Okay. A lot of people, like one of the things I always hear this time of year from attorneys is that they think they should wait.
[00:00:37]Anytime it's like November or early December, or, whatever kind of the time of year, they believe that they should wait to start their job search until the new year starts. And and what that really shows is it a profound. Lack of an understanding of business, basic business principles.
[00:00:55] And I'm going to share some of those with you today. Cause looking for a job really is about [00:01:00] kind of business and it's about how to make business ideas work for you. And in reality, this is the absolute best time of year to look for a job. The first thing is no one else is looking in November and December.
[00:01:11] So for whatever reason, people decide that they shouldn't look for jobs until they receive a bonus for because there's going to be more openings in November, December, and all this sort of thing. And it's just for me this whole thought process makes zero sense. Everybody in there, out there waits till January to look for a job.
[00:01:30]Just, if you think from like a business standpoint, why would you want to compete with so many other people looking for a job at the same time? It just is so much smarter to be looking for a job right now. In November, December than it is at any other time firms are going to have a lot more options of the people that they're going to choose.
[00:01:48] They're going to be overwhelmed with lots of different applications. And it's just, it doesn't make any sense. If you're applying for jobs when no one else is you're much better off, and this, by the way is a [00:02:00] major secret. If any type of job search, if you have really good qualifications, I was talking to someone yesterday and it was interesting conversation.
[00:02:08] And one of the things that, that I brought up is, you always want it when you're applying for a job and the person had been a teacher. So I have basically, they'd been a college professor actually. So I talked to them, when you're grading a student's paper, typically if the student, if there's one error, or there's five or six errors in the person's paper.
[00:02:27] You'll probably give them like a C like in errors, meaning bronc conclusions or just things not quite right. And if there's three or four errors, maybe they're in the B range. If there's one or two errors, maybe it's in the B plus a minus range. And then if the paper Really doesn't have any errors.
[00:02:44] And there's really good conclusions and everything was really tip shop the tip top shape, then maybe it's an a, and so anytime you're looking for, or a job, you have to say, what can I do to give myself make myself look like an a, and the way you make yourself look like an egg is you [00:03:00] look like the absolute best applicant for whatever position that you're applying for.
[00:03:04]If you're trying to get a job in California, but you're not admitted to California, but you're. I've got awesome credentials, but you're in New York, that's automatically going to make you like a B plus, if it maybe a B for not admitted to the bar where you would be an a, if you were in New York, if you're looking in a small town or a smaller market and you have break qualifications you might be a B in the market.
[00:03:28] If you're in. Los Angeles. But if you're looking for a job in a smaller market like Reno, Nevada, you might suddenly look like an a, so the idea is you always want to look like the best applicant you can't. And so you need to choose the times you apply for jobs. A lot of times to do that.
[00:03:45] And one of the best times was right now, like in early December, because hardly anybody's doing it. You should be going all out and doing more applications then you ever do at any other time of the year. And this for me is But it's always been one of [00:04:00] the greatest, the Mo the busiest time of the year for me, I make more placements in November and December than other months.
[00:04:05] I'm just very busy. Last week I had, interviews every more interviews on every single day and I got more interviews. Last week then, which was Thanksgiving. Then I've gotten in several weeks. The point is that, this is a time when you need to really get busy and your recruiters should be busy if you years in a recruiter, or if you're doing a job search on your own, because candidate law firms are receiving fewer applications for the job, for the jobs they have, or they have other reasons for wanting to hire people this time of year, which I'll talk about in a few minutes, this is a time where you need to work.
[00:04:35] You always need to work. When other people aren't working, you need to look good when other people aren't looking good. You need to be seen when other people aren't being seen. And the thing is that, you're when you're applying to these firms, most attorneys are working anyway. So they are going to see your resume.
[00:04:50] And certainly, they plan on taking vacations with their families once a year and doing various things. But, for the most part know popcorn. [00:05:00] For the most part most attorneys are in the office, they're in the office all December, they're in the office, mean you can call up most law firms and talk to people new year's day.
[00:05:08]Most attorneys, so there's plenty of people in the office. So there's nothing really to worry about with that. There's people that are interviewed. And the other thing I would say also is that. Anytime you're searching, you need an edge. Some people, their edge is where they went to law school.
[00:05:22] Other people, their edge is, their interpersonal skills, other people, their edge is the, from they're coming from other people, their edges, the whatever their practice area. And if that practice area is very hot and other people, it can be applying to jobs. So no one else has, and this is a way to give you an edge.
[00:05:38] Everything you do. In your job search in your career, it needs to be something that you're doing to try to give yourself an edge. And there's nothing more important than this particular edge, in my opinion, it can make a huge diverse another thing that I would say is that that you and you need to be aware of as law firms often have hiring budgets, they can use or lose by the end of the year.
[00:05:59] So [00:06:00] they get they have meetings many times at the beginning of the year or the beginning of the quarter. And. They have people to hire. And typically they have to hire them by the end of the year. And so they may say we're going to hire seven people in litigation. We're going to hire a corporate attorneys and they may do that at the beginning of the quarter as well.
[00:06:16] And you just, you don't know, but a lot of law firms the recruiting people, if they don't make the hiring the, do the hiring, they need to then they'll lose their budget. And then they may not receive the same budget for hiring next year. People are also evaluated inside the law firms, by the way about whether or not they actually are the people that they're supposed to hire.
[00:06:33]All these things are important. And, if a law firm has a hiring budget and they're rushing to use it, they're typically not going to be spending as much time parading a bunch of people through the door and being very critical of every resume. Every person. I've seen firms, where, I like recruiting.
[00:06:50]I know how to persuade I don't know how to persuade. I think that's a right way to say it, but I like persuading people to hire other people. And and I and typically if [00:07:00] you, if you're inside of a firm and you're trying to, and you're trying to.
[00:07:04]Use your hiring budget your idea as a recruiting administrator or a hiring partner, whoever's doing the hiring is you can push certain people and not others. And you can make sure that someone that looks good as pushing someone that's not as not. The point is like law firms have a lot of control.
[00:07:20]Law firms will listen by the way, to recruiting coordinators. If the recruiting coordinator says, hire this person. And a lot of times they will partner that may not have business and so forth. So hire this person. Then the firm may do it. And so law firms, when they're trying to push people through there, it's not like there's certain like certain people in key positions that can push people through very quickly.
[00:07:41] And. If they're in a hot push her trying to hurry to push people through, they may not spend as much time conducting follow-up interviews. They may not debate as much about you. And they just have a deadline and the writer to do, and they're ready to hire. And that's kind kinda what happens.
[00:07:55] So I've seen just really crazy things. I was thinking about another one [00:08:00] just before I walked in to start this webinar, but I don't even want to talk about it. But I've seen one of my candidates got hired as a second year associate by one of the 10 largest law firms in the country, without the firm even asking for his transcript and incredibly, he had very bad grades.
[00:08:15] He just happened to be at a large law firm. I've seen people get hired by major American law firms just after a 20 minute Skype call. So they do a 20 minute Skype call. And then all of a sudden, a couple of days later, they're, FedEx with offer letter arrives and they don't, they thought they were going to have more interviews.
[00:08:31]I've seen lots of people get interviews jobs and screening interviews. I've seen just the craziest stuff you can imagine. In terms of people getting hired that I don't really see. At other times of the year, I just, I think they, there's just a lot more rushed to hire. Firms are a lot more reckless than they normally are.
[00:08:48] And that doesn't mean that they're letting bad people in and they're being completely irresponsible, at the same time they're just they're being much more less we're more likely to hire. The other thing is law [00:09:00] firms tend to be very eager to hire positions at the end of the year.
[00:09:03]You have to put yourself in the shoes of someone that's in charge of recruiting. So they may have, it's almost when you have an exam and these dreams where you get up and you realize that you haven't studied for a class on the exams the next day, which is a persistent.
[00:09:18]Horror dreams, people have it, when they get out of school. I still had that dream before. And and so they're here, they are, and they have a position that's been open a long time and they want to fill up before the end of the year. Whoever, you know is in charge of hiring and recruiting, may get reviewed based on their ability to bring in people maybe offer us work, remain turned down.
[00:09:39]Maybe the firm was too picky. Maybe they didn't have the rights you just don't know. And so people inside of law firms are evaluated in recruiting roles based on their ability to fill positions and with the speed in which they do. Their job really is to develop good relationship with recruiters, law schools and the legal community.
[00:09:57] So they can get the word out. And many [00:10:00] times if those openings haven't been filled. They may be reviewed, but based on that, in fact, their compensation, even their job security. So there's a lot of pressure that, you may not be aware of that people inside of law firms are facing at the end of the year.
[00:10:13] And this is also in terms of companies recruiting personnel may tell you, their attorneys and so forth, you're the perfect fit. And the best out there, and they need to act now more than any other time of the year it's in their self-interest to do and and they will, man.
[00:10:29] I've seen it many times. And the thing is a lot of times, if law firms have had openings for months they may have been, not offered enough salary. They may have made offers to people that wouldn't take the job as opposed to people that would take the job, meaning people that may have.
[00:10:45] Backgrounds that are better than the firm or could get other jobs. And there's a good chance that a lot of times when there's positions inside of law firms in November, December, that the law firm actually has older openings and those older openings seem to be filled now. And they're stale.
[00:10:59] It's almost I've [00:11:00] run across a situation a lot of times where. We're a property. I bought a property once that had, was, had an offer on it right when it came on the market. And. And it was a million dollars higher than I paid for it because back, a year before when they received the offer, the people that were selling the house believed that they could sell it for a lot more and then eventually ended up selling for a lot less.
[00:11:24]Yeah. Law firms are have that situation too, where they may have made offers and they didn't make them to the right people. And they could have were faster. So they're much more likely to bring you in. Another thing that I really like about interviewing in December and November is that law firms are much less critical, I think.
[00:11:40] And when I have people interview, like I notice, and I just, this is another piece of advice that I would recommend following when people interview in the. Beginning of the week, like Monday, a lot of times they're, they're eager to get to work. They have a lot of stuff on their plate.
[00:11:54] It's busy, they may not be focused and looking at their email and stuff while they're talking to you [00:12:00] and they may be much more critical. And by the, when you get to the end of the week, meaning, Friday that are off even Friday afternoon, people are more relaxed. They've got their hours in that they needed to do for the week.
[00:12:13]If it's a litigator, their filings are all out and, and so that people tend to be much more mellow and just less critical of people. So I've noticed that people get a lot more interviews. A lot more job offers than Fridays always, or at the end of the week than they do. In the, earlier in the week.
[00:12:30] And I just, I would estimate that if, your odds of getting hired on a Friday are probably, 30% greater than, the day of the week. Another thing that people like to do too, is they like to make offers on Friday. And I think they make the offers on Friday because they it makes them feel good for the weekend.
[00:12:45] And just not a coincidence. I just remember this and I don't think I ever put this in an article or anything, but I think that the two law firms that I've worked at in my career, I both, I received offers from both of them on Fridays and interview with them on Fridays. So very [00:13:00] interesting. So you know, law firms inside of law firms, the people inside of law firms are often looking forward to.
[00:13:06] Yeah. Spending time with our families, Thanksgiving and Christmas. And so they're, they're there spreading good cheer there, better spirits there's all sorts of studies that show that, you're releasing feel good chemicals, oxytocin and stuff.
[00:13:17] When, when you're communicating with your family and others, and so people are just in a better mood, and it's why would you. Not want to interfere with people when they're in a better mood when they're just likely to be nicer. They're focused less on work and more on travel.
[00:13:31]Many are in a hurry to wrap things up. They. There's just a lot of, people tend to be in a better mood. There's lights in some firms and, and there's just a spirit to, to thanks. And bringing in, then there's also this whole idea of, helping people, it may be unemployed and doing nice things for people and gifts and so forth, a job as a gift.
[00:13:50]So I think that it's just a great time. And the other thing is a lot of the people that are just hired have also received many times holiday bonuses and that makes them feel good. So there's [00:14:00] just a lot of reasons that's that I think, that people are less critical.
[00:14:04]And then another thing I brought up earlier, but law firms are often eager to way are eager to get hired out of the way right away. And most attorneys. I honestly did not like interviewing. They may get credit towards our bill, our requirements, it's taking them away from what they're focusing on.
[00:14:19]They don't like taking time to interview. Most people don't. Sometimes, junior associates may like it because it gives them a sense of affordance. I dunno, but. For the most part, most attorneys do not like interviewing. It's just uncomfortable for everyone. They like meeting people of course, but it's attracting them from their work it's time that they could be spending with their family.
[00:14:39] They can't, get work done. They're not relaxing or exercise or whatever they want to do with the free time. And and and most law firms each year in January, we're in February tons of attorneys will come through. And everyone needs to sit there and ask dumb questions about, their background and what it was like at their law school and trying [00:15:00] to, What neighborhood they live in or what kind of work they're doing.
[00:15:02]Who knows but they have to talk about all this stuff and see whether they like the person or not. And most studies show that people find, figure out if they like someone within about 10 seconds of seeing them. So many times this is not even that useful, these things happen and people will interview them.
[00:15:16]So they, lots of attorneys understand that, if they hire people for positions now, then they don't have to do all this work in January and February, and then there'll be fewer people parade it through when there's a lot more resumes. So I think that a lot of firms we'll try to hire people and you actually give them better reviews and so forth in the interviews than they might You know, otherwise too.
[00:15:39] And cause they're gonna have to interview for people. Another thing that I really like is that law firms tend to be very disorganized in November and December when it comes to interviewing. And and I've seen I've gotten offers from, I got an offer once when a law. Government organization was very disorganized.
[00:15:57] I've seen lots of people, get offers [00:16:00] from being disorganized. It's just, it's it really is something that can work to your benefit. And when I was in law school, there was a, what was called the snow storm of the century. And I had this interview and Washington DC, and I had to drive up from Charlottesville, Virginia, which was.
[00:16:16]I don't know. It must have taken me over three hours with this huge snow storm. And it would normally be like 90 minutes. And I finally got to this where the billing was in the justice department and There was only one attorney in the entire department that had gotten to work that day.
[00:16:30] And he lived around the corner and he had no idea what I was doing there because he wasn't anybody that was in charge of interviewing me. And and so he made a few phone calls and decided to interview me. And and all I did was, I was scheduled to spend, Like a morning there and then go out to lunch with some people and then come back in the afternoon and talk to some more people.
[00:16:50] All I did was spent 30 minutes chatting with the us attorney that knew nothing about anything. And I think that I don't know why I was able to get an offer out of that, but I think maybe [00:17:00] they were embarrassed for not being there, but. The person that hired me called and said that they liked me and they would talk, they would be a good fit and I got an offer.
[00:17:08] So just thought very funny. And it was very disorganized, and getting an offer from this honors program back then, I don't know if it was hard now, but it was difficult back then. So I think that really benefited and. November, December, lots of law firms are disorganized. Staff is traveling many times.
[00:17:26]Sometimes attorneys are out of the office, but most of them are going to be there. But people are going to parties. There's just different things that are happening spending time with our family. And and I just believe, as a general rule that this disorganization is something that really can work in your favor.
[00:17:43] And, it may, it take many forms. It could take the form of, the interviews are just weird, like the ones I had but it also can take the F in the form of them just not looking at your background very closely. I had one candidate that and this is, I don't know why she did this, but she had a [00:18:00] social networking page.
[00:18:01]On Facebook or something. And it just, it was, it had a title of something along the lines of, I hate working in law firms. It was just, it was unbelievable. And then it had all these posts about how much she disliked her law firm and working in a law firm. It didn't say what law firms she worked at, but it just talked about this.
[00:18:18] And if you search for her name, her bio would come up at her current law firm. And then the second thing that would come up with was her social network and page with all this stuff. And so she got hired in December and when that was on there and, normally law firms look at a sort of thing very carefully.
[00:18:34]They're gonna look at your LinkedIn profile. They're going to, look at your Twitter and your other things to see what you're interested in. And. You need to make sure you're not too you're not going to be problems and so forth. And the only reason this came out was this woman was getting ready to leave this firm that she'd gone to, to go to even another firm.
[00:18:55]I don't know, about six months later, not too long later. And the new firms, she was going to [00:19:00] looked up her. Looked all this up because they were doing due diligence and they found this page and they ended up taking, I don't know, 12 or 13 attorneys from the firm, but they didn't take her.
[00:19:10]Flaw from the heart or done their homework, they were disorganized. They never would have hired her. So the point is that disorganization at work in your favor, people are less likely to, call your references and prod, prod them for negative information. They're less likely to sometimes even ask for your grades are less likely to give you critical interview or critical reviews.
[00:19:32]And they're more likely to take a liking to you. Another thing that happens too, is that a lot of times. Law firms have a lot of work. That's not getting done November and December and are eager to hire. Even though all law firms are operational all the time there's also time when, in those months when people just are not getting work done, people are traveling.
[00:19:51]Partners may want to get work to associates that are going home to visit their families. And they're not around just resent it. [00:20:00] And so when an associate or someone comes through, they're excited about that because I think that now, this person hopefully will. Appreciate the job more and be around people are getting sick and colder climates.
[00:20:10]So there's a sense of pressure to many, law firm leaders to hire because they feel like they're not getting the support or there's not enough people around, even though, reasonably, they would understand that this just always happens this time of year. And many law firms will realize the number of people because.
[00:20:27]Even secretaries and paralegals and others are becoming incredibly unreliable. And and the same thing happens. They know that attorneys may be thinking of leaving. A lot of attorneys are just There, but they're not really working very hard and not being very aggressive this time of year because they're waiting to get their bonuses so they can leave and look for a new job.
[00:20:46] So they're not working as hard. And and so they may be taking vacations. They shouldn't, or they wouldn't normally, or they may just not be working hard to being responsive or dodging assignments. When people say, sending an email to ask you for help. So these are all things [00:21:00] that can. Th that make people a little bit more eager to hire this time of year or two, and this is something you shouldn't underestimate.
[00:21:07]They're just the partners and people inside of the firm are just looking at, what's in front of them right now. They don't realize that all of this stuff will change shortly. And they believe that, they're in a crisis and need to hire people. So they do and many support people take a lot of time out of the office.
[00:21:23] Like I said, attorneys who are out on their way out the door may start taking lots of vacation days and so forth. That's not good. And then when the attorneys think there's no one to do the work they they become eager to hire people and I've certainly made that mistake quite a few times.
[00:21:38]I've had pressing needs for different types of people and administrative and other roles. And. And have, been very uncritical cause I needed to get someone in right away and that's not the best policy by any stretch of imagination. The other thing is a lot of times law firms can move very quickly with hiring much more so than other times of the year.
[00:21:57] There are often, fewer people applying for a [00:22:00] position. Recruiting administrators inside of law firms that are seeing. A fair few applicants coming in, have more time to consider you. And instead of having to choose between, a hundred applicants that may only be choosing between five or six.
[00:22:11] And the instinct is always to pick, at least one or two people to interview when you have an opening and and you pick the best you, and the instinct also is to pick the best rather than. Not taking any at all. So they, they tend to have time to go through all the resumes.
[00:22:27]W what happens a lot of times of the year is there's so many applicants for different positions that the law firm, we'll look at like the first 20 that come in or the first 30. And they're so overwhelmed with applicants. They may get one or two people that look really good at the first 30.
[00:22:44] And instead of looking at the others that come later on they may just start interview. It'd be like, okay we're going to interview these people. And then if we don't like any of them, we'll go back to the pile. And the thing is with this time of year with very few people applying, you, even if you're applying later for the [00:23:00] position because there's so few applicants you're, you're still going to get looked at more closely.
[00:23:03] It's just, it's much easier for the law firm to pay attention to them and schedule interviews. And, I noticed that when I'm recruiting November, December, I often get responses instantly from law firms. They'll, respond, but people will pick up the phone all the time.
[00:23:19] They will they'll respond to emails and so forth. And and you just don't necessarily see that other times of the year. So it's a very good time when it candidates, this time of year and let me just see her Yeah. So just, putting it in this sort of position is very beneficial for you.
[00:23:36]And the other thing that happens is law firms are a lot of times giving reviews. They're giving reviews sometimes in November and December, they don't all do that. Some of them in the beginning of the year, but a lot of times third though, towards the end of the currency, in that the year before the bonuses are handed out and it's during these months, many times that.
[00:23:55]Law firms will tell the people that aren't going to be a partner that they're not going to be a partner. [00:24:00] It's it's also the time when you know, attorneys that, don't have futures at the firm are told that, we don't see you making partners. It probably would be good to, if something else comes up to start looking or they may just give them a target.
[00:24:12]People are given low bonuses, which also communicate to them that they should leave. So there's, there is turnover happening and the law firms know that there's going to be turnover. Because I know there's going to be turnover and they know that there's certain work in the pipeline that needs to get done.
[00:24:25] They're eager to bring people in. And so they start, as they figure out who's going to be leaving and so forth or who they think is late. They start interviewing right away. It, the second you realize you need something you're much better off you're much more likely to hire.
[00:24:40] Then when you don't think in something or when, when you realize you need something, but it's in the future. A lot of times when I've hired people for certain roles, I've hired them because it gets to the point where I just absolutely need them. And then I aggressively interview and then maybe whatever problems.
[00:24:56]Maybe some time goes by and I decide, Oh, maybe I don't need them as [00:25:00] much. And then I don't hire as much, but in, in December, when, in November, when people are getting reviews and stuff, that can make a big difference and. Many times, if you're the only applicant this time of year you're just going to have very little competition and it's just smart.
[00:25:14] And and even when the law firm doesn't have an opening, which is something that I advocate to people and and I will say that, in terms of the people that I placed more than 50% of the people that I place are with firms that don't always have openings. Just because a firm has an opening doesn't mean it's the best place for you to be applying it's a lot of times, if you're the only applicant and a lot firms not attracting a lot of applicants that makes it even easier for you.
[00:25:38] So it's all about business. Supply and demand and so forth, so another thing that is that if you're the first person that the law firm sees freedom position, you're also going to have better chance of getting hired. Law firms often have new positions in November, December, and they announced her jobs then, but a lot of people aren't paying attention to job boards and so forth.
[00:25:59]And our [00:26:00] recruiters at that time, we hear they've got other things on their mind. And and, if they interview you though this time of year, when they bring you in they're much more likely to bond with you then than if you're someone that comes later.
[00:26:12] You just have a much better chance, if you're applying to jobs to have openings. And typically, humans like bond with the first people they meet. Can't tell you how many law firms that, I see this on a weekly basis that. The first people they, that they interview, they just decided they liked them.
[00:26:28] And then they ignore everyone that comes after it happens all the time. It's just, they're not, they don't want to spend more time interviewing. They don't want to have to bond with other people and disappoint other people. It's firms by the way, do not like rejecting people. They don't like to not work with people.
[00:26:45] They, they want to, basically, anytime someone mentioned went for an interview, they want to hire you. They hope they can. And if they interview you this time of year, then and you're one of the few applicants are much more likely to get hired and the more likely they are to [00:27:00] hire you if you're the, the first person.
[00:27:02] Often have this experience. And like I said earlier, that's just, it happens all the time. If I send a candidate to affirm and the, and then and then the law firm may call me back and say, we're already feeding people.
[00:27:13] We like, even if my Canada is much better than the other candidates, a lot of times it's just that bonding that's happened. And they're just, you couldn't even from couldn't even do any better. So these are just some statements that I've heard from law firms. Where I say that this particular candidate was in one of the top students in his class and worked at crevasse, how could she do any better?
[00:27:32] And the person says something like, certainly better than our candidates, but we're already interviewing a few people. And it doesn't mean that they have an issue with me because it's a client that I work with all the time. It's just that, that bonding has already occurred. And there's just initial bonding with applicants that come first.
[00:27:47] So one other thing I would say is just that it's always important. When I talked to my candidates, a lot of people don't understand this, but it's always important to do whatever you can to apply to positions right. When they come [00:28:00] out. So a lot of times people think about applying, they will, you need to get in the door and the faster getting in the door places, the more likely you are to get hired.
[00:28:08]Good. So I'm almost done. And then I will take questions. This has been a relatively short webinar, which is good for everyone too, because it will give you time to apply to firms. I don't think the January is always the best time of year to look for a position there. I will say that there are more openings many times in January than there are at this time of year, so that's good.
[00:28:29] But I think your odds and your. The percentage of firms you'll get interviews with and get offers from are much higher in November and December than this time of year. The other thing about November, December is this is when law firms are eager to hire and their guard is down and so you need to be.
[00:28:48]Careful this time of year as well. And, and during this time of year, I certainly do not work on Thanksgiving and other holidays, but I worked very hard and it's a very good time of the year to get a [00:29:00] position and everybody should be working at this time or this time of year.
[00:29:03] And and this is really when you have when your efforts are likely. To pay the most. And every applicant, every job you signed, you have a much better apply to you, have a much better chance getting than you would other types of year. So I'm going to take a quick break just for a couple of minutes, one or two minutes, and then I will come back and just ask as many questions as you have.
[00:29:25] So any questions you have today happy to answer it can be about this, or it can be about anything that ever in your prayer. Or questions you have or concerns or anything? One second. Thanks.
[00:29:42]all right, so let's do questions. Let's get started here. Oh good. There's a lot of questions today, which is great. And it was actually a lot of participants on the call, which is nice to say. Okay. So what about 2020 graduates should apply now before her May, 2020 graduates should apply now before [00:30:00] results to early and light at the provisional license program.
[00:30:04] Shouldn't matter, right? Yeah, I think if you're a may two 2020 graduate, I think now's a very good time to apply. I don't think there's anything wrong with applying now at all. I think it's a good time just because No law firms will also pay attention to your applicant application.
[00:30:20] I'm going to actually follow up on this question in a few minutes or after this question, because there's another question I see that's fairly, that's related to this, but yes, you should be applying right now and there's nothing wrong with applying right now. It's actually a very good time to apply and the faster you get a job the better.
[00:30:38] So it does look better to try to get a job now than it would later. One thing, I just, another thing I just wanted to bring up in terms of, graduation, if you're graduating in six months would be that, you want to, your objective is to get a job as quickly as possible.
[00:30:55]If you have to wait, don't get a job before the bar and that sort of thing, that, that can actually hurt you. [00:31:00] So I would recommend, applying to a bunch of different places, the places I would recommend most would be, firms that are wherever you're from geographically and places you've lived or where you have family.
[00:31:12] Those are two things that a lot of people don't do. So many people are dead set on working. For example, I know people that go to law school in Detroit and are dead set of working in new York or Chicago or, Angeles, and those are things that are all possible. And they're more than possible that you, anybody that wants to can't, but you're also better off trying to get a job close to home many times first, because that's going to be where you're most likely to get offers.
[00:31:38] And or if you're in law school in Los Angeles and, trying to work in Detroit would be an example or from Detroit. Okay. Here's another question I already submitted my application to affirm earlier this year. Should I resubmit it this month? If so, how much time should I wait between when I first sent my materials and now meaning if I submitted in October, November, can I resubmit this now?
[00:31:58] Or is that to sound I [00:32:00] think you can submit an application to a law firm. It depends on the law firm but. A lot of them use what are called centralized applicant tracking systems. And so they, they know when you've applied and where you've applied and so forth.
[00:32:13] And most of them know, unfortunately fortunately don't, and so the ones that don't, you can apply literally every, two to three months and it can work. I think this is something that I wanted to bring up. And I really should hold a a full, separate webinar about it, but reapplying to law firms is extremely smart.
[00:32:33] So I had an instance, we had an instance I think it was last week or the week before, or we had a recruiter that made three placements in one week. And what she did is she had a candidate that are three different candidates that had had applied that she had, tried to get into to two different firms.
[00:32:52] And the firms had all said no about them. Initially they said, no, we're not interested. And then she followed up with the firms. A couple [00:33:00] of months later and said attaching the materials and so forth and said, I know you said you weren't interested in this, but I wanted to check up with you on these, this particular candidate to each of the firms.
[00:33:11] And this is why I think the person would be good for you. And this is some other information about them that I may not have shared earlier, which was pretty much the same stuff. And those three candidates that she did that with. I think she did it with more than three. She probably did it with 10 candidates, but out of the 10 three of them got interviews with firms initially rejected them and got hired.
[00:33:30]Wow. It's just that sort of thing. When I hear that, I say, first of all, I'm actually very proud of our recruiters, but the other thing that makes me believe is that, following up and reapplying and being persistent stuff can make a difference. Now you don't, you don't want to be reapplying to places where, you're never going to get a job.
[00:33:46]If you're. In the middle of your class, and from, a local law school and trying to get a job at the biggest city from a town, that's probably not going to make a difference if they just don't hire people like you. But if you're trying to get into, get a [00:34:00] clerkship, a judge or get, who knows or get into a affirm that, maybe a little bit of a stretch for you.
[00:34:06]You can certainly. Keep applying. And that is a very smart thing to do and something that I would recommend everybody to. And and also on law crossing. We keep something called the law crossing archives, which contain every job that lacrosse has ever had. So you can go in and you can search firms don't even have openings sometimes, but have had them in your practice area before.
[00:34:29] So you may have a unusual practice area like alcohol beverage law, or water law, or some certain type of environmental work. And applying to firms that have had openings before can make a big difference. Sorry about a long-winded answer there, but I wanted to give you a little bit more information about that.
[00:34:47]The idea of applying to places that had openings in the past, or applying now, or reapplying is a really smart thing. So I'd see, I've got an interview at a firm, but it's scheduled for January. Do you think I should try to reschedule for [00:35:00] December? Or would that potentially harming, they feel like I'm rushing and pressuring them?
[00:35:03] Yes. I think you, if they schedule it in January, then I think that's perfectly fine. Hopefully you're one of the first people that they interview in January. In the interim, I would just try to psych yourself up for it. I would think about, what's gone right in my interviews for what's important to me.
[00:35:20] And and then just, what I can offer the firm and what I like about their background and so forth. I think that if you do a good job with that I think you'll be in good shape. So just use that extra time to, learn about the firm sell yourself on the firm, why you would want to work there, find positive reasons.
[00:35:36] And then and then use that time to put yourself in a good situation to be ready for the firm for the interview. And that is a really smart thing to do. If you're not, if you can. Okay. Let's see, are law firms hiring budget obvious based on the calendar year, do some firms use a physical year?
[00:35:50]Yeah, so different law firms have different different physical year. So they, some of them, their physical year man in August others, and, so the calendar year isn't always that but [00:36:00] generally it's going to be generally it's going to be the the calendar year that they use and the hiring budgets.
[00:36:05]The hiring budgets are not A major driver in terms of hiring? I don't think, I think more of the, hiring timelines, we want to hire this person, this fiscal year in this calendar year, I tend to drive things more, but yeah, hiring budget, the law firms definitely have different close out their new years at different times.
[00:36:24]And physically that's true are certain types of firms, big law boutique, small regional firms, et cetera. More likely to hire in November or December. Let's see, Barry I think that the best firms to get into, in my opinion, the easiest ones to get into in November and December in terms of big law firms are for whatever reason Are going to be branch offices of national law firms.
[00:36:51]I think that the reason for that is I think it has to do with hiring budgets can be many times given by the national firm to about [00:37:00] the large to the branch office. I think the branch offices, not all branch offices, but a lot of them are much more disorganized. I think that the hiring standards are sometimes different in branch offices and they are The main office, I think a lot of times with big law firms if you're trying to get into a branch offices now is really a really good time.
[00:37:19] And the smaller the branch office, I would say the better I don't know why that is, but that's been my experience big law firms it depends on the firm. You have big law firms that are very organized and w we're literally, they probably had consultants and other people come in and and they're almost run like corporations.
[00:37:36] And the more organized and established the law firm is the harder it's going to be to take advantage of kind of this time of year. It's not always the case, but I would say the more centralized and my checks and balances and so forth. There's certain firms that.
[00:37:52] It's interesting because there's some very good firms that have, Supreme court clerks in them and I'll search the things that are relatively small and that are [00:38:00] extremely prestigious where, you can get into them, coming out of an okay law school without great grades, but at the same time, they have people there that were.
[00:38:08]First in their class at Stanford law school and clerk in the Supreme court, so smaller. So the smaller firms tend to not have all these checks and balances as much in place. Larger firms though, a lot of times you mean, or you mean there may be great cutoffs for individual schools.
[00:38:23] There may be just all sorts of rules that they follow. So it's not gonna make as much of a difference this November and December stuff, but a lot of them you can get into. And then of course, boutique, like I was like, I was just offering in smaller regional firms. I think you're much more likely to get into them in November, December, but the best category is always going to be branch offices of large national law firms.
[00:38:45] They are the easiest to get into in November and December by far. And then firms that have lots of ongoing hiring needs are going to be. Larger firms, big law is just a full different car kind of ballgame, but [00:39:00] that's fine. Okay.
[00:39:01] Let's see. Is there anything to do to make them more likely
[00:39:04]or one of the first people to be interviewed? Yes, that's a good question. So the easiest way to be the first people interviewed. And, honestly, there's, I have all these secrets that I share about recruiting and, and it's they're not secrets where they're just things that I recommend to people and they work.
[00:39:20] And, for example, most recruiting firms that do what I do they only submit the openings and they only submit to openings of big firms and. But I track all the firms that have had openings interview our people in the past, and I know different firms like different types of people.
[00:39:33] And I can tell you that, being the first and only person interviewed is amazing. It makes a huge difference for can make a huge difference for your career. So the way to be the only person that interviewed is to. Apply to firms that don't have openings that do the kind of work you do or apply to people in the firms that have backgrounds doing the kind of work you want to do or are doing.
[00:39:55] That's it? If you do that, you're going to get a lot of interviews and you shouldn't be, [00:40:00] like a lemming, relying on a job site to tell you or to apply. I do this thing called law crossing concierge and lacrosse, where you can go in and look at all the openings of firms have had in the past.
[00:40:09] That's a sign that they probably have business in that area may have ongoing work, or you can just do research online. And do various searches and find stuff that's one way. Another way to make sure you're one of the first is to always apply to jobs right. When they come out. So you should be setting up job alerts on whatever sites you use.
[00:40:28]Whether it's indeed or. Bach prostituting and different job sites and making sure that when I opened it comes out, you're you apply right away. A lot of times people will think about applying. They'll think they're going to be the best advocate for over. They apply it and they don't realize how important it is for you to really get out there.
[00:40:44] First. Our recruiters, like part of what I do here is just like my job managing recruiting firm is, I have all these reports and I push people very hard to make sure that they're. Always reviewing jobs, always sending jobs. My candidates are always getting jobs all the time and people, a lot of times [00:41:00] they're just like, I can't take it.
[00:41:01] Stop sending me new jobs, because they don't, it's just too much and that, but that's what you need to do. If you want to be on top of your search, you need to apply to all sorts of places and you need to be, priority. One thing I would also say, and this is something I just want to make sure that everyone here understands.
[00:41:15] Is that, and this is very important is that when you're applying to firms, when you're looking for a job and I wrote an article, I'm not sure if it's on BCG this week, it'll be out next week, but you know about. What an attorney's role is in the attorney's role is to be an advocate. And by an advocate, that means, you take people and you represent them and you get the best results for them.
[00:41:34] You possibly can. And that's what an advocate does. And you're supposed to be an advocate for the people. You're working for your firm for, your clients. More importantly, and a lot of people aren't advocates, they just there's something else they've been sold that. This bill of goods that they have to act a certain way, or they have to be, an advocate for, something else besides their clients.
[00:41:54] I don't know, but most attorneys actually end up not being good advocates. I don't know why it is. The majority of them [00:42:00] know nicely majority of probably like slightly more, 50%. You need to be an advocate, but the most important person to be an advocate for an attorney is yourself. So being an advocate for yourself means, applying to every possible place you can applying as quickly as you can figuring out the system and playing games.
[00:42:17]Attorneys are very good at like manipulating rules. Deadlines and all sorts of things to their advantage when it comes to litigation or inserting contract, the actual terms that people aren't paying attention to or negotiating around contractual terms. And so the thing is that's what you need to do with your job search.
[00:42:34] Like your job search is a time for you to make sure you're going and. Finding reasons to, applying at the right time and getting ahead, I find it interesting, like all these people, a lot of times succeed at a very high level, they just take, do very simple things, it's I'm trying to remember it just against an example.
[00:42:53] Oh, someone like Tim Ferriss, for example, that he was a a championship, some sort of Japanese. Fighting or [00:43:00] wrestling or something. And all he did to be very good at that was he figured out how to lose 20 pounds of body weight or something, or 20 pounds of water weight the day before he was weighed in for a fight by taking all sorts of, I don't know.
[00:43:13] Things to lose water and other, weight off his body very quick. And then once you got weighed, the fight would be the next day. And he would have gained all that 20 pounds back in the strongest. And he took over and was like a championship champion and this something very simple. And so he wasn't the strongest.
[00:43:29] He wasn't a. Probably the best wrestler or whatever he was doing, but he was able to figure cut corners and do things that way. So this is another example. If you just want to apply to jobs first and you want to apply now and that's going to help you remind it's Okay. Does this apply to in-house for Pacific law firms?
[00:43:46] Would I be more likely to get an in-house job this time of year? Yes. I think you would also be more likely to get an in-house shop at this time of year. In-house jobs, unlike law firms. So they they certainly do not bill by the hour. There's there tends to be fewer people [00:44:00] inside of in-house companies.
[00:44:01]But it. The people that are needed to hire you are around that time of year then? Yeah. Yes, it would apply to law firms. So it would apply pretty much to all legal employers applying this time of year. But I would say in-house people do take more time off there, which I guess is a good thing for them.
[00:44:17] And because they're not evaluated based on the number of hours they build and most of the house jobs. So I would say that it's not going to be as likely, but it still can work. In-house jobs are receiving for your applications. There are still, other dynamics I talked about in this presentation are still there, but again, I'm a federal prosecutor with clerkship background 2015 grad who I eventually go into big law.
[00:44:41]When is the best time to maximize on my federal clerkship, my federal prosecution experience. Okay that's a great question. And we actually just placed a 2010 graduate who did a clerkship. And and then he I think he went to work for the [00:45:00] us attorney's office and has never worked in a law firm.
[00:45:02] And we placed him in a major law firm in Washington. DC would probably what I consider one of the top two or three litigation firms out there. And he was able to do it after 10 years. I think, if the, if you're a prosecutor, you can do white collar, you can also do general commercial litigation.
[00:45:19] I would say the best time to maximize your prosecution experience would probably be. Do you know, after the next three or four years then I would start thinking about it. I would also, but prosecutor, because the problem with being a prosecutor is a lot of times people do get tired out in the us attorney's office, but being with the trials and in the working get old sometimes for some people, not for all, but what I would recommend is, I would really recommend you do whatever you can to start.
[00:45:49] Kind of monitoring the market. So as you see, I would set up job alerts on whatever sites you use, law crossings indeed other sites, I would set up job alerts for white [00:46:00] collar prosecution jobs all over the country. And I would continually be applying to them as they come up.
[00:46:06]Because sometimes, like the frequency of white collar openings at major law firms is very. Very lucky. You always want to be applying to them as they come up. And then the other thing is, you do need to get out there and network with people in your market.
[00:46:21]And especially as a prosecutor, so you want to join different groups for attorneys and start meeting people in large firms because many times that's how people get jobs. And then you also want to become close to older prosecutors in your office that you think have similar. Backgrounds issue that are likely to go to big firms because they can bring you in there.
[00:46:39]Make sure that everybody that you work with as your friend always monitored the job market and then do whatever you can to network and the legal community. And I, so network's a big thing, but the point is you want people to know who you are and and that can lead to something.
[00:46:53]Okay. Can you discuss today's topic in the context of lateral partner recruiting? [00:47:00] I'm leaving my firm after several years. Okay. I think that the, in terms of today's topic towards lateral partner recruiting, I think the same thing applies. I think that it depends on, the type of business you have.
[00:47:12]I think it's a good time to apply because, if you. If you don't have a lot of business, for example, then then law firms that you know, where there's a lot of work are going to want to bring in people. And many times partners will believe that they can have other people, other partners, billing at a high billing rate to their, to their clients.
[00:47:29] It depends on what type of partner you want to be though. If you're looking for an equity partner in income partner roles, or, and I don't know, if you want to follow up I can. Answered that question, but I do recommend this time of year is a good time to apply to places and you're going to have much more luck.
[00:47:45]One thing that a lot of people will do this type of year, especially partners is, partners sometimes in Northern States will be considering relocating to. Arizona, or they may or Florida, a lot of people from New York go to Florida, people [00:48:00] from, or they are going home to where they grew up and those sorts of things.
[00:48:04]Many times you can write to firms and say, I'm going to be in this area during the holidays. I would love to talk to you. And and then and then and they will schedule interviews. And that actually is a very good strategy because. It allows you to reach people that you might not normally and have them interview you and see you based on their convenience.
[00:48:23] And and then it doesn't talk about anything about why you may be late. You may not, you may just say I'm moving back to this area and so forth. So firms like that a lot. And so that's what I would recommend, but I would also recommend, at this time of year also to the extent you can.
[00:48:41]Applying to openings as well. Okay. How do you feel that COVID has changed how law firms, corporations, if you had hiring November, December as soon as many corporations on a show, they say money in 2020, which includes reducing head count. Would that mean interviews in December? It would be for a January fire.
[00:48:57]Yeah, it depends on the corporation. Obviously there are [00:49:00] certain companies that have done extremely well in the, in this COVID environment like Amazon and, door dash and and many online entertainment companies. And one of the things too, that I would say Is, that you always need to do when you're applying to firms and wherever you're applying to is you need to understand, where is all the economic activity going?
[00:49:19] And and so a lot of times people will not understand that and because they don't understand it though, the waste, their time applying to places the wrong types of employers. I don't know that applying to restaurant companies or hotels and stuff or amusement parks would be a good idea right now.
[00:49:35] Of course it wouldn't, but in general, you apply to places that are growing where there's a lot of activity and that's something, when you're in school that a lot of young people always figure out what they want to go into. When I was younger, it was. I don't know it was like finance and then it became, internet and then it became, it's just always changing.
[00:49:52]But you need to go where the activity is. So there are companies that are just bursting at the scenes with activity. There are also companies by the way, [00:50:00] that are always having problems, that. That that are, laying people off, but at the same time, need, need help because people are leaving because they don't believe in their futures.
[00:50:09] And so those are often good places to get into as well. And it's something that I would also think about, but I think that corporations are still hiring right now. I know that there's definitely lots and lots of openings. Okay. Let's see, I'm a recent law school graduate.
[00:50:24] And I had a giant job lined up earlier this year due to COVID affirming the hiring freeze. And I was able to start my new job since then. I've not found anything suitable, but firms be more likely. They'll hire a recent grad in December. And would it be a good idea to reach out to the firm that I was going to hire me t