How Law Firms and Other Hiring Organizations Can Determine if an Attorney Candidate Will Do the Job Long Term

[00:00:00] Today we're going to be talking about hiring attorneys and really when doing so, how to understand whether or not the person is going to be able to do the job long-term. And this is one of the three most important hiring criteria that law firms need to be following when hiring attorneys, because a lot of times people will hire attorneys that in all honesty probably won't stick around.

[00:00:23] And if you hire someone. If he's not going to stick around you're basically going to cause a lot of problems for your firm and not only would the person be unproductive while they're there, but they're always going to be looking for a job. They'll undermine the morale of your people.

[00:00:35]They won't follow instructions and there's just all sorts of other issues. And so most law firms are pretty good at understanding this, but a lot of times people will get distracted and by the quality of an attorney's background and other things and believe that they may stay where they go.

[00:00:52] And this is actually one of my favorite topics in terms of management and keeping attorneys to stick around. And [00:01:00] there's just a lot of can look at in the background. And in th the main problem I see is that most law firms hire people that really, when they're hiring them or are not gonna stick around forever and are going to be.

[00:01:14]At the firm if most, for just a few years and this, especially so at the associate level and the reason I believe that it's so problematical to hire attorneys that are not going to stick around is because they're never going to commit. And if they're not going to commit, then they're always going to be on the lookout for better opportunities.

[00:01:33] They're never going to be putting in the full effort they should be putting in. And and then also they may also be only after a paycheck and a lot of these attorneys are very good at fast-talking their way into jobs. And I've seen consistently there's lots of people that can go into almost any job and and get jobs, but it's really a huge problem.

[00:01:51]These are the reasons that law firms should avoid hiring attorneys that really are not committed and aren't gonna stick around. The first thing is [00:02:00] that they're going to leave when things become difficult when their job and and they may be there for a paycheck but they want the work pretty much ticket form to their conditions.

[00:02:08] And what that means is if they don't want to work long hours, then if the hours become long, they'll leave. If they don't want to be challenged when things become challenging, they may leave. If they're criticized then you know, you have to worry about them leaving. And if there's problems with your brand, meaning your firms in the press for some bad things, for something or something bad happens in your office.

[00:02:27] And then they may leave and may also may not want to be pushed too hard. And and you can tell these types of attorneys too, by the way, a lot of times when you interview them, because they'll ask about the hours. So they'll ask about assignments. They won't they'll act like they won't be open to criticism and and and there's just a lot of things you can tell how many times you interviewed them, but when you hire attorneys like that, it almost always backfires.

[00:02:48]I once hired a very talented attorney to, to work for for a small firm, I was running in Malibu and this is really, it wasn't much of a law firm. It's more like a in-house counsel check a job right

[00:02:58]from name. So [00:03:00] when we're we could basically use a law firm name and the attorney was sensibly seeking a new position because she didn't enjoy driving around Los Angeles in her work everyday, which is a good reason for, if you live in Malibu for working locally, because it's can be like an hour and a half commute and despite that she was on the verge of becoming, she said that she was on the verge of becoming a partner at current firm.

[00:03:21]She liked the work she was doing, but she really wanted to work locally. And and she really wasn't that concerned with the compensation. I ended up paying her about 50% or 25% less than she was making their large law firm. And and she actually did very good work and and she was a great hire in almost all respects, but after w just literally the day after a various trustful deposition but didn't go as well as she had planned and where the opposing counsel was, not very nice to her.

[00:03:49]She gave notice and she quit. And she basically said that she was stressed. She wanted to start family and no longer interested in practicing law. And this is very common it's [00:04:00] I certainly am not angry with her and it wasn't at the time, but I made a mistake hiring someone that was running away from hard work and responsibility.

[00:04:07] And and I should have seen that because the moment that position became too challenging and she left. And if you looked at her background, she wasn't committed enough at her former job to make partner. She was more concerned about reducing her commute on her salary or the prestige level of working in a large law firm as opposed to working in my small firm.

[00:04:24] And there's nothing wrong with this. And and I should have just listened to that initially and realized that if the work got stressful, she would probably leave. And that's exactly what happened. And so law firms make this mistake all the time. They'll hire people that when they give the reasons for looking, you can tell that they're probably not going to stick around and attorneys that are suited to work in the longterm.

[00:04:45] Often in almost often do the ups and downs wherever they go. And they're not gonna come up with excuses to leave whenever the work is not going the way they want it to they're going to stick around and that's a certain personality type by the way to go. And I'm gonna talk a lot about [00:05:00] that today because.

[00:05:01] Honestly, there are people that if you look at the resume their last farm, they might've been at six or seven years, the previous firm, before that they were at, several years and their reasons for moving are usually pretty good. It's not that things aren't going well or something happened.

[00:05:14]It's something beyond their control and it doesn't reflect on their work or their lack of commitment.  One of the mistakes that I've made and and it's it's a kind of a Cardinal rule. I read a there was a list of things that a billionaire, a famous billionaire in Los Angeles had written down as his 25 career roles or 20 career road rules or something.

[00:05:35]And what, right at the top was never a free hire anyone. And that was one of his career role rules. And and I read that early in my career and I never Followed it. And and I've made the mistake before of hiring people back that have quit. And most of the time when someone quits you're, you're from, or where they're working, they're quitting because there's a part of your job.

[00:05:54]But they don't like, it could be the workload is too much, or they don't like certain people they're working with and so [00:06:00] forth and there's issues. And if somebody quits and when I say quit, they actually leave and go do something else. People certainly quit for a day or two sometimes and come back.

[00:06:09] But if somebody actually quits then that's not a good sign. And and and they typically will leave again. As an example I had a human resources leave once because we had moved offices from, I don't know, downtown Los Angeles to Pasadena. And it was a lot of work because we were moving a lot of people and there was moving and a lot of coordination.

[00:06:28] And and he quit the day after the moot, just like this one girl quit the day of her deposition. And he just said the job was too stressful. And and and he cited various reasons that the move had been stressful and it was too much for him and an Irish and to stay that, there wouldn't be other moves and so forth then and he came back and.

[00:06:46]Over the next few months, the company continued to grow. His job became stressful again, and he left and this time I let him and and he wanted a less stressful position. And it was funny. I was in court about a year ago and I saw him and he was [00:07:00] working in human resources in a court office, helping judges hire clerks or something.

[00:07:05]A much less stressful position. And that was the kind of job he wanted. And he didn't want to commit to working in a private office was here is demand. If you hire people that are looking for less challenge than you have, then they're going to leave. And most people have boiling points that upset something that upset them and will cause them to leave, but they're not committed.

[00:07:22] And many times they're looking for reasons to leave and they're looking for reasons w. Everywhere. They go to find reasons to leave. And what I think is important for law firms to do is when someone's looking for a new position ask them why they're looking. And if these issues the reasons for looking at Bob issues that are likely to occur in all firms then they're not going to be the best hires because they're going to leave here from too.

[00:07:43] And it's something you just need to be aware of. And and I, talk to attorneys all day long and I've been doing it for The better part of a couple decades. And and honestly, liars lead firms for the strangest reasons, they'll leave because, they heard some bad news about their farm.

[00:07:59][00:08:00] And anytime there's bad news about affirm in the press, even if the firm is, hundred plus years old certain people from that farm will start looking. And these are an example of people that aren't committed. Others will just leave and they don't get a review, so of improving and getting better.

[00:08:12]They'll say I want to go someplace where I'm valued and and law firms, by the way, shouldn't feel threatened that people are going to leave if if they start bringing in a lot at work or if there's bad news or if they give a bad review, you can't treat everyone with care gloves.

[00:08:25]You're running a business and you obviously have certain standards. You're trying to make a profit and everything, and you need to be careful. And and the other thing that that I think is that, the, one of the reasons that you don't want to hire non-committed attorneys is when a non-committed attorney leaves they always cost chair from a lot of money they will take, it'll take a lot of time for the firm to get up to speed or for the client, for the new person to get up to speed on the matters and clients certainly don't like it when there's lots of attorneys, getting up to speed and learning and rotating and not of the stuff that they're working on, and it's not good for the continuity of relationships.

[00:08:59]There can always be a [00:09:00] variation in the quality of service, if they become accustomed of the work that one attorney's doing and the way that person responds to them, and then they have to work with another person. And it also costs them a lot of money, many times to get other people up to speed and So that's not good.

[00:09:14] And then of course, when an attorney leaves that means that, that attorney and the work they're doing is no longer necessarily getting done. And you're gonna lose money. They're going to have a work that's not getting done that could otherwise be done. And that's gonna cost your firm quite a bit of money.

[00:09:30]You're obsolete much better off having that money and having someone there getting the work done. And then another thing that, that I think is fairly serious is that, if someone's not committed they're really always pretty much undermining the morale of other attorneys both before and after they leave.

[00:09:47]They They may talk about how, your firm's not prestigious, how you're not paying enough, how there's things wrong with the attorneys that have given bad reviews that the clients aren't good. And so they'll undermine the whole fabric of your [00:10:00] firm and people that are committed more to that.

[00:10:02]And obviously it's not easy to find committed people and to create a culture of commitment, but when people start leaving a lot it's not good. And when I was practicing law, I just, I remember that all the time, it would be people that would stop by my house office and for, a half hour to an hour, a day would talk about what was wrong with the firm and how they wanted to do something different work somewhere else and so forth.

[00:10:25] And then partners would do that with each other. I've seen that. As a result. It created doubts in my mind that I had made the right career decisions being there. And it may be unhappy even though I otherwise might've been happy at the firms. When firms bringing in people that are not committed, this is something that they're almost always going to do because people that are non committed are going to look for people that support their point of view and see the world in a similar way.

[00:10:49]And then the other thing is too, is it takes up a lot of time to replace non-committed attorneys. So if you think about it, interviewing takes a lot of time. Some law firms now, especially with zoom and so forth are interviewing, a [00:11:00] lot of people for positions instead of interviewing a few, they may interview twice as many and other law, but a lot of firms are,  in your offices, it takes a lot of time and you have to fly out and schedule things.

[00:11:12] And and it's just a lot of work and that's time that attorneys could be billing. It's time that.  It could be doing more for clients and it's time where,  you may have to, where you're losing money. And sometimes it takes several weeks. You can hear a reference checks and all sorts of things to bring in a new attorney.

[00:11:27]It's a lot of work and that costs a lot of money and and that's why you're almost, you're much better off many times to not hiring Attorneys to begin with. And then the other thing I like about non committed attorneys is that most of the time they're not trying to become better.

[00:11:40]They don't care so much about becoming better at their job. They they're not trying to cruise Christa performance. They're not trying to get ahead. They're they're not trying to get clients. They're not trying to learn more about their field or get exposed to new things and expose, instead they're often content to coast, as long as they can hold onto their job.

[00:11:59] And [00:12:00] this, can cost you a lot of good service to your clients. And it can contribute to a culture of, averageness and where things don't change. And and then, if your clients leave, that's going to hurt you as well. And th the best lawyers that are committed are always wanting to improve and being an attorney and the law firm hopefully is their main option and what they want to do and are eager to get better.

[00:12:20] And non-committed attorneys most of the time don't care because they would rather be forming other work. And then the non-committed attorney often is not someone that's going to grow your firm. So they're not going to try to generate business and find clients and look for ways to do that well they may not be interested in this and the work it takes to clients.

[00:12:38]This is going to hold back your growth, your firm and and not help. If they're not bringing in business and you have no intention of doing so, it's going to hurt you. And they're going to be, a cost center rather than a profit center, many times and doing work that could be done by partners stuff, perhaps the less costs.

[00:12:54] So for us Other thing is they by not performing at their highest level that's going to make your firm less profitable. If [00:13:00] they're not concerned about their performance the service they're doing decreases they'll build few hours and be less profitable. The service your clients get won't be as good and And it's going to cost you money.

[00:13:10]I've seen a lot of non committed attorneys that have done work for me personally, at firms right before they got ready to go. And, suddenly the work would be turned in with the mistakes and typos and all sorts of issues. And and the reason was, is because the attorney was getting ready to leave and just wasn't thinking through things.

[00:13:26] And that made me upset. And in one case I did fire a law firm because the service was so poor, so I'm not going to happen if the person's not committed. And then the other thing too is if someone's not committed that means that they're thinking about doing other things and, not committed attorney, you spend a lot of time on job websites and they spend a lot of time networking and talking to people about potential jobs and thinking about other things they could do and fantasizing and because they're looking for the next thing.

[00:13:52] And and that means also that they may. They're billing for time when they're doing that work, when they're at the office and maybe not giving their full effort [00:14:00] and doing the best service. And so for the, your clients, that's going to cost you. And then the other thing, non-committed attorneys, people that are non committed to your firm.

[00:14:08] So sometimes lawyers are just non committed to the firm and not even the practice of law, just your firm. And and they can come there and they can often will take clients. They may take other attorneys with them to the firm and and lots of times you'll hire. A law firm.

[00:14:23] So hire partners that are not committed and and we'll do the same thing. And so that, that costs you a great deal of money. Also many not committed attorneys will be looking for ways to make money here, quick bucket, your expense. And and one of the ways they do it is they can they can make up proceed transactions or transgressions and and threatened to take legal.

[00:14:41]And honestly, this is one that I almost didn't want to include in this list. But I am including it because I've just seen it way too many times. And when I say many times, and then I see it at least, Several, I see it several times a year. A lot of times they'll manufacture, disputes.

[00:14:56]I've seen ones where they manufactured disputes about the air [00:15:00] quality of the firm. She knows that ones where you know where you know, the just, different types of things. And and it's not good. I once knew a female attorney, for example, this is a long time ago but who became addicted to crystal meth while working at a large law firm.

[00:15:14] And she had a very good pedigree and so she fabricated a story and I know she fabricated story because I knew her friend making a pass at her so she could get a large settlement and that never happened. And and I've seen this sort of thing many times and I once, and this is just another example, but this is a funny one, but then once I had a warehouse, it didn't have any cameras in it.

[00:15:33] And people were working there 24 hours a day. They were, we were doing, sending out letters and other things. And before installing these cameras, I probably had one person every few months Sue me for injuries. And they would always be like, I was walking and I fell down because someone left a box of paper or something and.

[00:15:50]And then I installed cameras all over the warehouse and then they stopped complete the, all the injuries for four years. I didn't have any even worse, I spent several years fighting several of them because of [00:16:00] no cameras. And then and then I once it was representing a man looking for a job and he'd been fired and he made up a story about his company that had been working for doing something illegal and then even made up a story about his male heterosexual boss for.

[00:16:15]Making a pass with him or something, which was absolutely ridiculous. So when I found out about this, I certainly didn't have anything to do with him. Never helped him with his job search, but this is the kind of stuff that goes on. And and and so there's just a lot of people out there that are looking for trouble.

[00:16:29] And if someone's not committed, they think why not burn some bridges? It's not going to necessarily hurt me because this isn't something I'm interested in really doing for the long term. So those are some of the problems of non committed attorneys. And and I hope that, it's enough to show you that it's definitely not a good thing when you hire non-committed attorneys, but I did want to go over with you some signs that are going to indicate the attorney's not likely to stick around for the longterm.

[00:16:54] And this is something that, by the way, that very good firms I've noticed are pretty good at figuring out. And [00:17:00] they, it's almost like it's just an institutional DNA and but a lot of firms aren't good at it. And and this is really.  The stuff I'm talking about, by the way, I think it's very smart for you to be watching this.

[00:17:11]And because running a a legal businesses is really about hiring the right people that can make you the most money. And and that's what a law firm is. And so you need to know how to do this. And so this type of talk I'm doing it right now is something that people understand it and don't make these mistakes can do can really make a major difference in how effectively your law firm runs.

[00:17:31] And so I certainly appreciate you listening. I hope this helps, but one of the things that indicate that I'm an attorney is likely to stick around is when the attorney has significant commitments and those are things like a spouse or children. And if somebody has a spouse home and children they need that, those, that group of people needs stability, the children need stability.

[00:17:51]The. The the wife needs to ability or, the husband needs stability if the moment's working. And, these people are unlikely to leave for [00:18:00] trivial reasons because they're they're routed to wherever they are and this specialty, so law firms, because law firm, many times, if the person buys an expensive house and that the odds are not, that they're not going to be able to make as much money working outside of a law firm in house.

[00:18:14] And they're likely to stay. And law firms encourage attorneys and you should encourage her attorneys to settle down buy homes and nice cars and things because the more of that they do the more likely they are to stick around and and try to bring in business and grow your firm.

[00:18:27]The other thing is if If an attorney's resume indicates that all they wanna do is the sort of work that they're doing. That's also a good sign. If an attorney works in one practice area and that's all they've done then the odds are that they're going to stick around attorneys that are bouncing around between practice areas are not always a good time because a person's figuring out what to do.

[00:18:48] And if they're trying to switch practice areas at your firm, they may try to switch practice areas at another firm leave here from a do or go back to a practice area and so forth. When you see stability in their resume, like a lot of times, for example, the person's a [00:19:00] healthcare attorney, they may have done healthcare work and.

[00:19:02]Before law school, then they may have done it in college. And then and then they may be doing it now, then that's a good sign that the person's likely to stick around the tub. When you see that they've,  maybe written articles and given talks and they're part of, different groups this suggest, this suggests that's all the person wants to do.

[00:19:17] And those are very good hires. That's one reason. I tell our recruiters here that you should, so call sample to play to people that are trying to switch practice here. Isn't that never, usually never works. Other things that indicate the person's likely to stick around. And not always, of course, but if the person's doing lots of things too, do doing lots of writing and speaking, teaching and promoting themselves and really active in the community.

[00:19:39] That means that they want to be an attorney and they're taking this role seriously. They they're excited about it and they're out there doing it and that's a sign that the person is likely to stick around or at least in the profession, but and then the other thing is the practice setting.

[00:19:53]I think it's very risky for law firms to hire people that are in-house. I think it's very risky for them to hire people [00:20:00] from academia. I think it's very risky to hire people from a non law firm practice settings because it's, very clear it probably that person is going to go back to doing something like that.

[00:20:09] If you hire an attorney from a public interest, the prob the other, they're going to go back to doing public interest work. They're doing that for a reason. If you hire someone in house and it's just a different skill. I think that, you need to be very careful if you hire people from different practice settings it's just people that come over to law firms from different practice settings, rarely stick around and it's just doesn't happen.

[00:20:28]And, people will come in into law firms and talk about how they want to work in a law firm many times from in-house and from a different practice settings. But most of the time they, it doesn't work out and they don't stick around and they go back to the practice setting the written, because if someone moves from a law firm doing house, they generally do it for a reason.

[00:20:47] And and they're going to do it again, just like the example that I gave you, never rehire anyone. If someone leaves a law firm environment, the odds are pretty good that they're not going to come back and be happy.  The other thing is that's a good sign is that if you [00:21:00] are in a smaller market and you operate in kind of a niche practice area without a lot of opportunities for this type of attorney.

[00:21:06]If you're in a, like a small to midsize market, and there's not a lot of firms to do what you do the odds are that the person's going to stick around. I recently worked with a private equity attorney relocate. From, I don't know, New York, I think. And to, to Detroit cause his wife is from there and he wanted to be in Detroit and move back there.

[00:21:23] And there was only really one there's only one firm in the whole city that's as a really good reputation of private equity. And and so that, that was a good firm for him to work at it's like that. And, markets like salt Lake city, if someone wants to be a paddle on, there's just a few really good firms there, in other markets with different practice areas.

[00:21:40] And if you have a, you're in a small market or do you have a very niche practice area in a large market, that's not a lot of people do. Then you really could be a good fit for many firms. Yeah, the thing is that if if an attorney is moving up to be at your firm, so a lot of times and this is actually a very good hire as well.

[00:21:55] Like an attorney will be trying to move to a better firm and, [00:22:00] maybe they're at a midsize firm and and and then your firm is in a, it's a large firm in that market. And and you know that the attorneys probably not it did on the Nero's ever. If it's a very significant move up for that attorney, they may stay.

[00:22:12] And if the attorney has had a couple of moves, like from a very small firm to a bigger, a better firm. And then in that two year firm, which has maybe a major national firm, they're likely to stay, a lot of times attorneys are just trying to better themselves and get you the best firm they possibly can.

[00:22:28] And sometimes it takes time. And so if you're a very prestigious firm, there's other things on their resume, like their,  commitment to their practice area and extracurricular outside activities where it shows they're trying to brand themselves and their business and their practice area in their market, then then they're probably likely to stay and that's a good sun.

[00:22:46] And then and then the big thing that I always look for is, and I personally think this is the most important of them. All is at the attorney has a lot of employment stability and their previous positions. Many times when an attorney will, I've worked for previous [00:23:00] employers for a long time.

[00:23:00] And and if they have, then they're likely to stick around with you for a long time. The best indicator of future employment stability is really what the person has done in the past. And and the best hires are almost always attorneys. Who've worked for the same employer for a long period of time.

[00:23:14]I've seen. And I have multiple examples of this, but I tell the story all the time, but the first two recruiters I hired one of them had been in her previous firm, I don't know, six or seven years. And the other one had been at a previous firm for 13 years. The one who'd been in her previous firm for six or seven years, which wasn't a recruiting firm.

[00:23:30] It was a law firm stay with me for eight years. And the one who'd been at her previous firm for 13 years stayed with me for 17 years or 18 years. I don't remember what the exact number was, but it was something along those lines. And so the other, and during that time, lots of people came to work in the company that had been in their law firms one or two years.

[00:23:47] And they also stay with me one or two years. So there's just certain people that make things work. It's like that with. Romantic relationships and it's like that with, friendships and it's like that with employers as plays as well. Certain people [00:24:00] are able to commit to an employer and will stick around and do their best and commit other people are going to be bouncing around.

[00:24:07] And and you can usually tell that based on her resume and what they've done in the past. And then the other thing I I always think is a really good sign is when people speak very enthusiastic about their work the people that are working with the matters they've worked on. So if someone's very enthusiastic, that means that.

[00:24:22]No, they typically have a lot of passion for what they're doing talking about what they do, get some excited they may get visibly excited when they're talking about things. And and if somebody really likes their work, then they're probably committed. If you get a lot of joy out of something then you're probably going to stick around and and people certainly can fake that.

[00:24:39]But I think that, if people are talking about various people that work with a day in Meyer and so forth and if they were trying to work with the best attorneys in their practice areas with their firms, then those are often very good risks for people for you to hire. And another thing I've noticed too, about the best attorneys is they They're very proud of the work that they do.

[00:24:58] So they tend to put together very [00:25:00] detailed transaction sheets about all the work that they've done. They tend to, put together they have very clear, good records of all the litigation they've done litigate or some awful keep these kinds of giant form files of all the different things that they think are important.

[00:25:12]And this is just something that the most committed attorneys do. And and so when people.  Have on a resumes that, that talk about other transactions. That's a sign that, they're writing everything down. They want to, they're trying to build a really good record and they're excited about the work that they do.

[00:25:27]So those are the signs that people will stick around and here are the signs. The attorney's probably not going to stick around. And this is gonna go a little bit fast compared to the other stuff. But the big one is that they've had several jobs. None of them lasted too long. And this just suggests that the person's never found their footing may not have done well in the past positions may just leave for more money or who knows.

[00:25:48]Doesn't have long-term goals to be with a single employer, and it's just a journey journeyman. And these people always leave. And and there's really no firm or probably organization that can ever make these types of attorneys [00:26:00] happy. It's it has nothing to do with you. And when you see resumes like this, Unless there's extraordinary reasons for all this movement, you should just move on.

[00:26:09] I You shouldn't try to hire people that aren't going to stick around because even if you believe that you offer the perfect environment for them, the odds are that you don't, some people make it work and other people don't. The other thing is the practice area. If someone doesn't look committed to their practice area, that's about that sign people that are trying to do different things all the time of their practice areas.

[00:26:28] Typically just don't like practicing law. They believe that if they switched from,  private equity to only do an M and a, or doing commercial litigations that have healthcare litigation, or I don't know, but they're going to be happy practicing law. And most often that's not it at all.

[00:26:42] It's just that they're just unhappy working in a law firm or practicing law. And they believe that some sort of practice here at change is going to make them happier. Now that doesn't mean that there's not good reasons. Sometimes people want to move from insurance defense to commercial litigation because they feel like they want to represent bigger [00:27:00] clients with deeper budgets and go do more work, or they want to work on more sophisticated matters and they want to move from doing general corporate to securities work or something.

[00:27:09] And so there's certainly reasons for all this, but for the most part, when people are trying to do many different things. That's a sign that that they're probably not going to stick around. Now, there are a bunch of caveats to this sometimes attorneys and smaller firms have to do a bunch of different practice areas and so forth.

[00:27:25] But what I'm talking about for the most part, I, when people are trying to switch practice areas, so that would be, doing all environmental firm, just doing litigation or doing environmental from, are trying to switch to taxed from corporate or something. People that are trying to switch practice here is like that typically are not gonna last.

[00:27:42]And I see things all the time and that indicate someone's not committed to their practice here. In Los Angeles there's attorneys that, you can look at their resume and they have all these things that show, they might've been an entertainment, law journals and law school.

[00:27:54] They're going to be entertainment, law clubs, and law school. Then when they were in law school, they'd entertainment related [00:28:00] internships. And now they're doing a litigation with a large law firm. And and when I look at that, I know that person's not going to stick around because eventually they're gonna, they're gonna get an entertainment law position and they always do so another firm could hire them as a commercial litigator, that person is always going to be trying to get an in-house job or do something in entertainment, law.

[00:28:18] And they're going to keep trying until they get one. And for whatever reason, there's something inside of them. That's driving them to do entertainment, mop, bad hires. So you can tell a lot of times by people's resume, what interested shows, what they're going to end up doing in the long run. And if the person's in committed, not committed to your practice settings, another one I brought this up earlier, but.

[00:28:37]If someone's worked at a law firm, then worked as a law professor, then worked in house or done all these different things. They're not going to stick around long and your practice set. And either these are people that are,  trying to find their footing and trying to find the best place for them.

[00:28:49] And that's fine. And. They probably will eventually, but the odds are more than, more in the favor that they're not gonna stick around at your firm and we'll do something else. [00:29:00] And and then the other thing is that I don't like is when an attorney doesn't have a geographic commitment to where you are.

[00:29:05] So a lot of times attorneys are going to be seeking positions all over the country. They may be applying to jobs and the world South and New York and the Pacific Northwest and and the likelihood of that person Abstain where wherever they're hired is not good.

[00:29:21]lot of times law firms we'll hire those people and then they'll always go back home. They'll say, I want to move back home. Or I want, I miss, I miss New York, I miss Los Angeles or I miss, whatever, wherever they were before. So if someone's relocating then the odds are pretty good.

[00:29:36]If they don't have any connections there that they're not going to stay, especially with smaller markets. I've seen people hired in, and South Carolina that are from Washington DC, and they just don't like it. There's not as many dating opportunities if they're single the sports teams, restaurants and the types of clients.

[00:29:51] And so law firms have to be very careful about hiring people that don't have a geographic commitment to their market and are unlikely to stay. [00:30:00] Even if it looks like the person's going to do could do good work. I Most of the time, not all the time, but a good portion of the time, those people that don't stay.

[00:30:08] And and smaller markets also tend to limit attorneys. So if you hire people, for example, from very diverse backgrounds in smaller markets they may be uncomfortable. There's not a lot of diversity in different places. I've seen, I had an instance where a guy from China was hired by a law firm to do agricultural litigation in I was like North Dakota or something.

[00:30:29] It was very funny. And he certainly was not happy there and doing everything he could to get out of there. And so a lot of times he wanted to be in a more diverse environment where there were other people that didn't speak, spoke Chinese it was more comfortable for him.

[00:30:41] So it just depends. A lot of times people want to be in, in more diverse markets and so you have to be careful about that. And it's certainly not saying to discriminate against people from diverse markets, but. And that want to be in diverse markets, but if you don't have a lot of diversity in your market, that's going to be many times people are not going to want to stick around and you just [00:31:00] need to be careful about doing a good job, integrating them.

[00:31:02] And then the other thing is if a lawyer has a long connection to a smaller market, so an example would be if a lawyer, I was talking to a lawyer yesterday from I believe grand Rapids, Michigan, or something like that. And and her whole family was from there. And and she never wanted to leave, but, she certainly could get a job in a large city if she wanted to, but if she got a large, a job in a large city, odds are pretty good that she will come back and then.

[00:31:26]It's very common for attorneys from, places like salt Lake city to go and work in a larger market for a few years. But then, their whole support network when they have children and so forth, there's going to be in salt Lake and their parents are in salt Lake, so they want to come back.

[00:31:39] And so you need to understand,  where are the attorneys you are from or where the attorneys you're hiring are from. And and if and if they have family members there and so forth, and if they're from your area, then the odds are that they're going to stick around. But if they don't, if they're not, then, you have to really wonder why if they're going to stick around.

[00:31:55] And in most cases, those attorneys will know very quickly start looking for new [00:32:00] jobs. I remember talking to a woman not too long ago, that was hired in a small town in South Carolina. And all the attorneys in her firm had gone to the same high school. They all knew each other, and she was really felt excluded.

[00:32:12]Socially and whole town. Even from, like local swim clubs and things, because she was considered an outsider. And so she almost immediately began looking for new jobs and even though she was in a special and they need it.  And then a lot of times this is something that, may seem a little off, off kilter.

[00:32:28] But I do think it's worth mentioning is, if an attorney is independently wealthy or has a spouse capable of supporting them then many times and it depends on the person. Of course, I know lots of people that are extremely motivated and I, for example will continue doing what I'm doing forever.

[00:32:43]Regardless of if I won the lottery, I who cares? I love it, but a lot of attorneys if they have if they have if they're supported or they have a benefactor and so forth they may lose some motivation. Having bills to pay and stuff does tend to make people sometimes a little bit more motivated.

[00:32:58] And it's not to [00:33:00] say that, people that don't have bills to pay are not motivated because of course they are myself included, but a lot of people aren't and many people will stop working and we'll lose a lot of motivation if their family or other people are willing to pay their bills.

[00:33:12] And so that's just something to think about. It's not always the case. And a lot of people get a lot more satisfaction out of working then. But certainly having money in the bank, but it just depends on the bursty. Another thing is if an attorney has an entrepreneurial background, so a lot of times attorneys with entrepreneurial backgrounds are really just, it's just something that's natural and they can't, you can't really break them of that.

[00:33:36] And it's very rare for attorneys. Who've started businesses in the past and run successful businesses to rejoined firms and stay there. Or, if they've failed at a business venture, it's very rare for them to join a firm and stay there because they'll often try to go back or, and I believe it's almost like a genetic bent that a lot of these entrepreneurial attorneys have, and it's just there, they're so entrepreneurial and they have so much [00:34:00] drive that it's very difficult to pin them down and sometimes they can take out that.

[00:34:04]Entrepreneurial drive, working for a law firm and by bringing in clients, I think working in a law firm, very entrepreneurial if I bringing in clients and they were, and all those sorts of things and developing a book of business and a brand, and then using the law firm as a way to, to support them in that and their business, but not every attorney thinks that way.

[00:34:22] And it's something, I certainly try to talk to them about a lot and convince them, but not everybody does. And some people just have a genetic bent and they would rather,  run a, an unsuccessful law firm where they're not making very much money. And the excitement of it then work in a large law firm where they're making a lot of money and have security.

[00:34:38] It just depends on the person.  And then the other thing That kind of a risky, a risk factor to some extent is when an attorney doesn't have any obligations, meaning they don't have a, a family, they don't have a home, they don't relate to appear to have any expenses and so forth. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[00:34:53]But the threat of course is if someone doesn't have anything that's holding them back then [00:35:00] then then they could leave at a moment's notice and I've seen a lot of people just leave the practice thought in a moment's notice. I've seen people, work for one or two years in big law firms and then just quit one day with one week's notice and spend the next five or six years traveling the world.

[00:35:14] And there's nothing wrong with that. But. But if someone looks very concerned about having any form of obligations, even car payments and other things, then then you need to be a little bit concerned that they're not establishing roots that they may not stick around them. And then another thing is if their attorneys run a solo practice.

[00:35:30] So a lot of times attorneys that have run solo practices will prefer working on their own. Sometimes they'll come back to law firms and succeed. And as a matter of fact, I would say a decent percentage of the time they come back and succeed. But for the most part it, it doesn't work.

[00:35:43]There may be like a 30 to 40% success ratio of that. But the most often those attorneys are so have solo practices because of things in their background or decisions they made in the past that made that better for them. And they'll typically go back to that, to solo practices as [00:36:00] well.

[00:36:00] And then another thing is if the attorneys had Lots of different periods of unemployment on the resume. Many times an attorney may have lost jobs in the past taking time off. And there's a rule in the legal profession that that attorneys should never take time off and never stopped working.

[00:36:14] I It's okay to take a couple of weeks off, there shouldn't be gaps in your resume and most, really good attorneys don't have any gaps in the resume and some do. But if there's a period of unemployment on the resume, that often is a sign that the person couldn't get work because of something in their background got fired for doing something wrong or just more often than not.

[00:36:31] And this is just decided they didn't want to work for a while. And if someone decides that they don't want to work for while that of course is a sign that maybe there's a lack of commitment there, most attorneys I know that have taken significant time off in the practice of law and come back, have left again.

[00:36:46] So that's worth repeating most attorneys I know that have taken significant time off that have left. And then come back to law firms have left again. So it's the whole idea of like never re hire anyone most of the time. If you [00:37:00] hire someone that's taken a lot of time off, they're going to leave again.

[00:37:02]And if you hire them from in, whether you're rehiring them at your firm or a neighbor formulate work there, another firm, almost all of them will leave again, because the same reasons they were unhappy before, they're not going to process them differently in the future. They're still gonna leave again.

[00:37:16]Another thing I don't like is the attorney being very focused on money and short-term rewards so many times you'll see this in young attorneys, they'll be very concerned about getting an extra five or $6,000 or extra $10,000. And if they're very concerned about that early in the interviews, Or after getting an offer then they're going to be concerned with money when they're hired and that's their primary goal.

[00:37:36]And they're most like going to leave when they get more money elsewhere, the best attorneys especially young attorneys there to get experience. And then and then other motivators are things like, working with people that they like. And then as I get more seniors, even money, people work with people to feel like.

[00:37:49] And if you're hiring people that are more focused on short-term rewards and more focused on money, then they're almost always going to leave if they can get a better job. And that means that [00:38:00] money guides them and not things like the quality of the work, the people they're working with and so forth.

[00:38:04]You need to be very careful with that. And those are real major signs of the person's going to leave. Now, if your firm is paying significantly below market and that person's capable of making a lot more money elsewhere, then you know, then you might want to think about the hat and what is a difference.

[00:38:19] That's significant. I would say, 15 $20,000 is probably a lot of money. People will give up money to get better experience and the best people, by the way. And every profession will always give up a lot of money to work someplace where they can get really good experience because they care about their profession, their work, and the stuff that they're doing.

[00:38:39] So when you see people going to the us attorney's office for half the salary, they can make an, a law firm or one third. I They want to get trial experience. They believe in the role of the obstructors office. When you see people work with a lot of times, famous actors will to work with a famous director.

[00:38:53] It may take the minimum salary to work on a movie instead of, demanding millions of dollars. They get to work with a famous director. So [00:39:00] people that are very concerned about their profession and how well they do typically are going to be more focused on. The quality of the work and the quality of people that they're working with.

[00:39:09]But money certainly can motivate people. And it is something to be aware of. I've mentioned this earlier, but people that are trying to switch practice areas, always a very risky type of hire seem to be very careful of that. If someone's trying to switch practice areas, the odds are they're not going to be committed to the new practice area as well.

[00:39:26] And that almost always is the case. Almost everyone that switched practice areas ultimately either goes back to that original practice area or isn't having the new practice here now. That's not always the case. Sometimes there was clear reasons for the person being in the wrong practice hearing sometimes.

[00:39:41]I've seen instances where an attorney has done nothing but corporate work. They did as a summer associate. They did it their first and second year of practice and then work just fell off the face of the earth at their law firm. And so the law firm could keep them employed.

[00:39:54] They switched to the litigation and the person was there for two, literally two years. And they really wanted to go back to corporate. Now that doesn't [00:40:00] mean that the person had done anything wrong and and maybe it's okay to hurt them for corporate if someone's made a conscious decision to switch practice here is that can be a very risky boat.

[00:40:07]And then other something else I don't like is when an attorney is very inflexible with their time. So I've seen attorneys that will say things like I can only work. In the office Monday through Thursday and then I needed to take Fridays off every week. And and once somebody starts dictating the rules like that can be very risky.

[00:40:23]Most of those attorneys will not stick around because they've assumed control and and, and they will make new demands on you. So once, you don't give them something else that they want and you don't give it to them, they will often leave.

[00:40:35] Now. I hate to say that cause I I don't think there's anything wrong with people asking for certain days off and so forth, but if people are completely inflexible with their time, many times then then the second they don't get that what they want or they don't get something else that they demand in the future.

[00:40:48]They will often leave and that's okay. I They're in control of their career and but they are not necessarily the best type of hires if he wants to build it. And then the other thing I don't like is when an attorney is moving down in chromosomes [00:41:00] in terms of the prestige level of the firm.

[00:41:02] So if people are moving to a less prestigious firm to do less procedures work, it's not always a warning sign and there's many reasons for it. But one of the reasons is that they th there may be hidden issues for that. They may be running away from something they may believe that they're going to have to be able to work fewer hours.

[00:41:18]Or but most often the case is that they're they're taking this job because there's enough. There's not, they don't believe there's anything better at the moment, or sometimes they have other problems. I They I've seen people, consciously try to move down firms when they have, serious substance abuse problems or when when they have issues with doing good work or when they have attendance issues and things.

[00:41:38] So they think that, their pedigree or whatever's going on with them in the background can be covered up and compensated for them,  maybe not working as good of a firm or they may just want less responsibility. And I don't know, but in many times it's just less hours and that's actually okay.

[00:41:53] Going to a boutique for less hours and more client contact. There's all sorts of good reasons for it, but you definitely need to be careful as a law [00:42:00] firm when you're trying to hire people that are trying to move down and most, by the way, most, really good law most Law firms, if the candidate is exceptional and applying to them and they're, they know that they're not as good of a law firm, we'll be very careful about interviewing that person.

[00:42:14] So I was telling a story on a webinar for candidates yesterday that I had this candidate that was exceptional. Like you couldn't believe. I He was from the best firm. He had the best law school. He was in the right practice area at the right time and had the best grades. And and I've submitted him to firms and nothing happened.

[00:42:28] And then I submitted him. Then I had other candidates I submitted the same set were. 70% is good and they all got interviews. And in the firms that were less prestigious or, the firms that it wouldn't interview this guy until I actually called them up and told them why he was interested in them and that he really was interested in them because they were smart and they figured that maybe he wasn't interested in us and why would we, put ourselves out there that's probably a risk.

[00:42:53] And and he did have good reasons for wanting to work there, but you have to be careful. And then the other thing is if an attorney is trying to get [00:43:00] experience outside of their primary practice area they many times as I told you earlier, they'll we'll try a new practice area when many times, and that's not a good idea.

[00:43:08]They'll many times they'll do that cause it may career mistakes and so forth. And and so if they're trying to get experience outside of the primary practice here, that's not a good thing, either something to be careful. And then the other thing that that is often a bad sign and not always by the way, but if the attorney is coming to you because they are running from something or something bad happened to them in the past.

[00:43:27]Law firms will avoid attorneys that have been fired, laid off or lost their jobs in the recent past. And and I think that they're a little bit extreme about that. I think that many times an attorney that's lost their job can be a good hire. But. I have noticed that when an attorney has been fired and in the past job whether they've been laid off or fired most often they become very paranoid in their next job.

[00:43:48] They are very aware of criticism. And many times they will fire that from before being fired themselves. And and they'll get back at the firm that fired them by getting mad at the firm that hired them after being fired. And so many of them are less [00:44:00] committed after having been fired.

[00:44:01] So you need to be careful now when you're hiring people that may have had those sorts of issues in the past. And yeah. So that is the webinar. I will take questions if anyone has them about the things that we talked about today and let me see here now, any questions you have, whether it's about this webinar or any other kind of hiring related questions, I'm more than happy to answer them.

[00:44:22] Just give me one second here.

[00:44:23] Let's see here. Okay. Can you send me a reporting of the webinar after this seminar? My connection is awful. Yes. I can send a question. Let's see. Could, this is a these are from attorneys, but this is okay. I'm happy to answer these questions. So I'm loving these webinars. I was wondering about making a lateral move and I have a question when getting referred by someone already at the new firm, I want to work at how do you go about laterally?

[00:44:47] Do you give your friend your resume transcript or cover letter and Brian Sanford a forward only your resume. How does this work? If you forward a long cover letter, what was you included? Okay. You have to be a little bit careful when you're getting [00:45:00] recommendations from when you're sending your resume to friends and so forth and affirm about about lateraling.

[00:45:05] And and the reason is, when you're sending, when you're getting you send your resume and so forth to France, because the big thing is that just because your friend has given the resume to the hiring people, you never know how good or what kind of quality of a recommendation the the firm is going to give you.

[00:45:21] And and the, your friend is going to give you, so your friend, many time, many friends are competitively each other. And so that your friend may actually not give you a good recommendation to the firm. So that's just something you should think about. And they may not say something positive.

[00:45:33] And the other thing you never know how your friend is regarding the firm. So if your friend is someone that gossips and may not be the hardest worker. You just don't know, they, they may actually hurt you our recommendation coming through them as opposed to someone else may not be a good thing.

[00:45:47] So I would be careful. I noticed that a good proportion of the time. And when I say good proportion of the time, I would say 25% of the time when someone gives a resume to a friend, the friend actually never gives it to the firm. So they tell them they're going to do [00:46:00] it. And they don't, I don't know why that is.

[00:46:01] Maybe friends are competitive with each other and maybe their friend doesn't want the other person to work there, but that happens quite a bit. So you need to be careful about if you're giving your resume to a friend what exactly if the resume is actually making it to the right person, let me just see, I'm gonna try to pull this up for you so I can just show these questions.

[00:46:20]Okay. One second.

[00:46:22]Okay. The next question, I'm looking for any advice? I

[00:46:26] okay. Looking for advices, I still haven't looked down a summer associate internship offer. I have a few is there anything else to do is now, besides not applying to everything? Anything, if you have an if you don't have a position in a law firm right now, that's okay. We're you still have a couple of months.

[00:46:41]My advice is that I always recommend that people try to get a summer internship or a law firm job in the town that they're from. So applying to those firms in the market that you're from is always a good idea. The only other thing I'd recommend is just making sure that you do the same thing with all law firms in the town and the town where you're going to school.

[00:46:59]That's [00:47:00] also very useful and could be a good idea. And and then also applying to everything and everything is a good idea. Then many times offering, going into local law offices to give your resume out and walking in personally can also be a good thing. And it is a good idea to make sure you always have it's always a good idea for you to do whatever you can to to get a job.

[00:47:21] So you need to really push yourself very hard to try to to get a position. And that means many times just going places knocking on doors and saying your work for free and that sort of thing. It is important to work in a law firm. One other thought that I just had is if you're going to be in the town where your law school is over the summer, you, sometimes you can take a class or something and maybe get a law firm to hire you on a part-time basis and put that down on your resume as well, a smaller law firm in town, if you want to stay there.

[00:47:48]But just because you don't have a job in a big firm, doesn't mean you can never work in a big firm and you should really go all out and apply to as many places you can. Okay. That was a lot of questions here. Oh, wow. Okay. I'm going to [00:48:00] just give me one second. I'm trying to do something I'm going to stop sharing my screen so I can Open up kind of a word document here and put all these questio