How Law Firms and Other Hiring Organizations Can Determine if an Attorney Candidate Can Be Managed
[00:00:00] Today we're going to talk about what are extremely important topic with parties. A lot of times when law firms and legal hire organizations hire attorneys, there, there's a lot of problems with managing them. And an attorney will often resist that management and ended up going between different firms and actually ended up working many times at a lot of different places.
[00:00:25]And often a short period of time because they resist being managed. And there's ways you can tell how manageable as an attorney is by often by their resume, but also when you interviewed them. And so I'm going to talk about that today. And just from a business perspective this is a very important topic because your law firm is going to be a lot more profitable and do much better to the extent you're able to manage attorneys that are coming to work.
[00:00:53] The first thing is you really need to know that that two types of attorneys to really are in law firms. And for the [00:01:00] most part law firms contain soldiers and generals and a soldier follows orders is able to support the larger cause of the law firm.
[00:01:08] And also soldier support each other. And also the generals and a good soldier typically takes their role very seriously. They may one day want to be general. But Intel they can reach that level. They'll they'll continue, working very hard.
[00:01:22] And one of the main problems that a lot of law firms have is they have a lot of them will hire bad soldiers. And what about soldier? Is it someone that. Many times it's gossips they'll undermine other soldiers in generals. They will they may leave the law firm meaning they may come to the law firm and suddenly just, figure out why reasons to leave and never really fully commit when they're ordered to do things or they have to work and do difficult things, they'll complain.
[00:01:52]Then they're often just out for themselves and they don't really think about the larger cause of what they're doing. So that can also be problematical. [00:02:00] And they really aren't that concerned with improvement. They may be very satisfied about their past accomplishments, but when it comes to improving and getting better at their jobs, they're stuck.
[00:02:10] And and they're always considering doing something else or potentially leaving. And and that's a problem. And and many times a bad soldier will take on the role of a general, even though they may not have a lot of experience and they may try to do it much sooner than they should.
[00:02:26]And then you have generals and generals also need to be loyal. And they're in a law firm in general could be, almost closer to a soldier in many respects, but they also need to be capable of taking orders and supporting the firm. They need to be able to inspire their troops and make the people below them excited about working.
[00:02:43] They need to keep them busy occupied and engage. They also need to believe in what the employer's doing. They need to be flexible and get along with others. And and then they also need to be able to disregard bad news and just keep fighting. And so those are some things that are important [00:03:00] for generals in general is obviously in a law firm would be partners.
[00:03:03] So people that are Manageable as a general rule. And these are just some, things that I'm going to talk about today. They're their long-term goal is typically to work for other people. Some people, their long-term goal may be to do something on their own, write a book or be an entrepreneur, or start their own law firm.
[00:03:20]But someone that's manageable, their long term goal is hobbyist to work for other people. They typically want promotion and recognition from groups. And being able to be have a group say good things about them is important. And they're motivated a lot of times by other people saying nice things about them and may, their motivation certainly comes from within, but they like getting recognition from a group.
[00:03:41]They typically we'll talk with a lot of enthusiasm about people above and around them. And ideally they're motivated by more than money and prestige. So a lot of the very best attorneys that. Do the best work and and even work in the biggest firms are a lot of times not motivated just [00:04:00] by money prestige.
[00:04:00] They're actually motivated by the quality of the work that they do. And and then also they'll typically be very good leaving politics out of the office. Th the thing to understand about working for others that I think is important is that most top law firms, even the, the head of the firm is working for other people.
[00:04:19] So everybody in the firm is working for others and within the firm, and also outside the firm. And this idea of wanting to work for others is important for people that are manageable. And if you have attorneys that you can see a lot of things on their resume about being entrepreneurs, or they talk a lot about independent things, they've done that many times is a sign that they may not be manageable because the best attorneys for law firms typically would.
[00:04:45]Never really think about having their own firm and they want the brand of the firm and they function based on being part of a group and not individuals. And many times they don't even understand business very well. It's funny when you talk to a lot of the best attorneys out [00:05:00] there a lot of them have no understanding of business.
[00:05:02]They get paid a lot of money, but they're not really very good business people. And and they would like, they would prefer to have someone else manage attorney's staff and others around them and help make decisions for them. I've seen a lot of, very few attorneys In my career that had experienced started real businesses.
[00:05:19]But the, if someone does have a lot of experience running a business they're typically they're going to be interested in making their own rules and those aren't good people for a law firm. And then many times they also have a lot of self-confidence and that self-confidence will make them question orders and so forth and not make them good hires.
[00:05:38] And. No, there's times when you can actually hire older attorneys that have had their own firms. So a lot of times law firms will hire people that have even had solo practition. You have been solo practitioners or had their own firms. And this actually can work at some times. But in most of the time it doesn't work a lot of times, those.
[00:05:57] Attorneys will keep clients on the side. [00:06:00] And unless their law firm is a major player in the market that table to pay them a lot of money and really increase their billing rates and so forth. It's not going to work. I once hired an attorney the head is on practice to come work for me and and be in-house counsel.
[00:06:14] And and he'd had his own practice in the past. And his resume was unclear about whether or not he still had that practice and he had a really good resume. It had, good law schools on it. He seemed to have very good experience. He interviewed very well and there was just some morning science.
[00:06:30]He, during the interview he wasn't as serious as I would have liked him to be. He said he had his dog in the car and the interview was going later than you expected. That was something I should have taken this warning sign. And then I also didn't check his references very closely.
[00:06:43]And I actually, I don't think I checked them at all which was a huge mistake. And I may have checked his previous employer, but not anybody before that or after that. And and he told me that he's, had wound down his independent law firm and wanted to work full time.
[00:06:56] And when he started, he rearranged his desk in a way [00:07:00] that Nolan could see his computer and Everett, and he had asked for multiple locking file cabinets. And and then he started coming in the office very late, often 1:00 PM and so forth. He refused to give a weekly report on the things he was working on and brought his dog to work and there were all sorts of other problems.
[00:07:18] And what happened eventually is after about 10 warnings I actually had to let him, I decided to let him go and and and I was mad cause it was like, had been going on and I just repeated warnings. And after he was gone we cleaned out his office and there were all these case files that we found from his law firm.
[00:07:36]What he was doing apparently was he was going to court to argue his cases in the morning. And then when he came to work, he would work on the cases and and and just, was generally unmanageable while he was there. He he would meet with people about things that weren't really relevant and all sorts of, activities that had nothing to do, but our companies was doing and pretty much he did whatever he wanted to do.
[00:07:58] And. And then when he was [00:08:00] fired, he even sued me because he said I hadn't given him, even though I'd given him verbal warnings. I hadn't given a written the mornings before firing him. And and then he actually ended up getting another position with a very prestigious private school. And he lost that job.
[00:08:13]Cause they eventually discovered he was running a practice on the side and then he did something similar with another employer. And eventually lost his bar license. But there's attorneys like this everywhere that are unmanageable and this is just an extreme example, but and I've certainly hired them in the past.
[00:08:29] And I think I'm not proud didn't this happen. It may not happen when I was maybe three years into this business. And I've been in more than a couple of decades now, but the problem is that if people have a lot of independence and are used to working on their own then you know, they're generally going to to leave when they figure out how they can work independently and.
[00:08:49]And a lot of these people are going to constantly be questioning the structure of the business around them. Though many times they may believe you're an efficient they they may undermine the management of the firm [00:09:00] and there's just all sorts of problems with them. And and the other thing is they're not going to be invested.
[00:09:05]If people aren't invested in the work they're going to give less than a hundred percent and that's going to hurt you. It's going to make that's going to create a lot of inefficiencies. It's going to make it they may not connect their clients the way they should. They might undermine the morale of your firm and it's just going to create a lot of issues.
[00:09:21] And another bad hire that I had was The attorney that was a graduate of a top one of the top five students in his classroom, top five block, 15 law school. And and he never been a summer associate in a law firm, which by the way, is often a warning sign when hiring attorneys, if you're a law firm.
[00:09:37] And instead he did when I hired him, he was out of law school about a year and was doing legal work for a company owned by a friend of his. And he was also teaching law school at night. And and he lived close to my office and I thought he would be a good hire because of his background.
[00:09:56]But his first day of work, he turned in an assignment and it was, it was littered with [00:10:00] typos and all sorts of errors. And and I met with him and explained why the work wasn't good. And he was upset. And the next day he came to the office and quit and I was fine because he obviously, was someone that wasn't able to take direction.
[00:10:15] And and then he contacted me and apologized a few days later, said he wanted his job back and would follow directions, but also I'd work in at home. Because he was more productive in front of the television and asked me this would be okay. I told him I wasn't comfortable with it, but, he could work in the office and and over the next few months, his work improved but like all people that are difficult to manage, he always would avoid feedback.
[00:10:40]He'd settle matters many times without asking for feedback. He would not provide me with the reports of what he was working on. He. Avoided issues where he would face criticism and and then when I hired other people to work for him he would often take them under his wing and prevent me from communicating for that, which I found unusual.
[00:10:59] And and [00:11:00] then he would spend a lot of time outside of the office with him. And then one of the attorneys left, they wrote him a note, which he left on his desk and it said something to the extent of, I know you'll be very successful when you have your own firm I'm going to be joining you. And so this is an exam example of someone back would this was very difficult to manage.
[00:11:17]He ended up leaving and starting his own firm and and then when I hired people undermine them as well when they start. And didn't when they started in speaking possibly about the process about the job. Peanut that was an example of someone who was very independent wanted to do their own thing.
[00:11:33]Wasn't able to follow directions. And and honestly it was more of a liability than anything. And there's just a lot of attorneys like this. And I've seen law firms hire lots of them. Ms. Probably some that you've hired in your firm right now. Then recently, and there's just, there was a lot of even recently there was a lot of warning signs.
[00:11:50]Most people that are difficult to manage will quit or threatened to quit when they're confronted with performance or other issues. If they're not manageable, they will typically the often [00:12:00] threatened to leave. And once someone threatens to leave, they almost always will, or they'll continue to be unmanageable.
[00:12:06]And many people quit and then come back. Pretty much if someone does quit and come back they'll almost always quit again. I've never hired anybody. That's quit and come back and stayed more than a few years. That's pretty much what happens all the time. And then a lot of times if people haven't gravitated towards, more formal hierarchal environments in the past, like they haven't been summer associates or they've worked in jobs that don't require a lot of accountability law professors, in example then there's likely reasons for this.
[00:12:36]They probably don't want to be very closely managed and that's something you need to look out for. And many times those types of attorneys do not like structure and they don't want to be accountable or criticized. And teaching law school is also a bad sign. I did it when I was a young attorney.
[00:12:52]And it's almost a decision that's very much at odds and working in a law firm. People that aren't interested in practicing law often want to be in a position [00:13:00] where they feel like authority and that if you want to feel like an authority, you can be a law professor, you can run your own business, you can do all sorts of things, and there's nothing wrong with that.
[00:13:07] They're Bronies people like that, but they're not always the best fits for law firms and, people that want to work at home when that's very important to them. There's certainly I don't think there's anything wrong with people working at home necessarily a lot of times, but when people are trying to control their environment and they don't want to be around other people and many times it means they don't want to take orders.
[00:13:28] They don't want to get input and so forth. And and that is something that's not good. And then many times th those sorts of people can be a problem. And so I've seen when people are insistent and I'm working at home and not coming in the office there is Percentage of those people, and I don't know what it is, but that, that are going to be difficult to manage and get to follow directions and do things a certain way.
[00:13:48]Also there's people that will resist training and feedback. So if people are resisting training and feedback, they're often protecting their egos. And and that means a theme of that. They, they may want to get [00:14:00] better, but they're afraid of criticism. And those types of attorneys are often bad hires for law firms.
[00:14:04] And many young attorneys have this and many older attorneys have it. So a lot of times young attorneys need to be trained and they'll resist it. And many times older attorneys become very settled in their ways and don't want to change as well. So they can be problematical other types of things that happen as people will avoid accountability.
[00:14:22]When that happens that's always a problem. That means they won't report on what they're doing. They they won't wanna. Update you on what's going on. And and so the lack of wanting to be accountable many times just means the person wants to feel independent.
[00:14:36]Other times people will make very significant decisions on work matters effecting clients or superiors without asking for feedback. That can mean also a lack of being able to be managed and and if people won't answer w won't respond to feedback, that's not a good thing.
[00:14:52]And then also attorneys that interfere with your ability to manage other attorneys are bad. There's people that will undermine superiors and there's people [00:15:00] that will undermine staff and other people in the create rumors. And and that makes it very difficult for you to manage people.
[00:15:06] And those sorts of people are also. Very difficult to manage and that's a warning time. And then you also have a lot of times attorneys that we'll talk very seriously have concrete and realistic plans to do something else besides practicing law. And and those types of attorneys will always leave.
[00:15:24] And many times you won't have a warning about that either. That's the, the biggest points I'll cover a few more here right away. And then I'll take some questions, but in reality, the most manageable attorneys often just want promotion and recognition from their groups they're in and that's something that's.
[00:15:41] That's just very important. They depend on recognition of other succeed. They get excited about things like, when you're interviewing them, they'll get excited. They'll talk about the reviews and good things that other people have said about them. Many times they'll mention the reviews and so forth on their resume.
[00:15:56]And they'll say nice things that people said to them. And that means, [00:16:00] people that want to have that get excited about that sort of thing. That means that they. That there's, they're professional self-worth and so forth is often very related to what other people think of them.
[00:16:10] And that's good. Because they want other people to think positively of them and those subset of attorneys are manageable. And they may talk about having received the highest bonus or compensation. That's often a good sign. Some of them will talk about having worked the most hours.
[00:16:23]That's a good sign people that work very hard and are typically trying to impress other people. People are trying to impress other people and superiors will be manageable. And people that received the highest compensation are typically are rewarded because they're manageable and other things that we'll talk about so they may talk about how they were put on the most significant matters and you can ask them about that what matters to working on.
[00:16:46] And if they're doing that's a sign that. Oh, they follow directions if they're getting promoted very quickly. That's also a sign working for the most influential people in the organization or firm is also assigned. Typically the best [00:17:00] attorneys will have the best people working for them.
[00:17:02]People chosen for various leadership roles and so forth and put on committees. I typically I'm going to be often the best people to, and because they're manageable and following directions. And if an attorney is not excited about promotion and relegation and
[00:17:18] then there's problems and, I've worked with a lot of attorneys before that that have had issues getting positions. And many times what happens is the firm when they're interviewing them is really picking up that and this management stuff. They may learn that the person doesn't have a lot of hours and, not having a lot of hours is a sign of the work, but many times the sign that people just don't like you they may people that aren't concerned with promotion and looking for reduced hours and reduced responsibility are often very difficult to manage.
[00:17:49] And in law firms want to hire attorneys that want recognition and want to be the highest reformers. And certainly no one needs to be the highest performers. People do have reasons for wanting to work reduced hours [00:18:00] and so forth. But as in a general, as a general rule the people.
[00:18:04]That are the best are going to be concerned about the recognition from the group and attorneys that have a difficult time being manageable will very often not talk about their achievement. They'll avoid the topic and they may talk about other things that they did in the past.
[00:18:19]And and recently I was, it was interesting. I was working with a partner recently that was a candidate for one of my clients and the law firm interview this attorney, I don't know, six or seven times, and just kept bringing this attorney back. And and I think that that the law firms had, sense that there was some problem with her.
[00:18:37] They didn't understand really what it was, but they kept wanting to talk to her again and again, and finally The law firm actually asked her for hours and how much she built in the previous few years. And she came back and she was very nervous. And I hadn't bothered to ask her that either. It was it was assumed that she had been working very hard because of the firm she was at.
[00:18:54] And and she had him getting a lot of hours and and and then after we started talking [00:19:00] about that, she, it became very clear that she was a very difficult person to manage. She started complaining about the people in our firm. The fact that her pay was cut, that she hadn't was no longer on certain committees and and other issues.
[00:19:10] And and then her, and it came out that her, it was difficult for her employer to manager and the firm to ended up not making her an offer. And and it was because of management issue. And so this happens with partners, it happens with associates and and these are kind of ways that you can pick up on.
[00:19:26] And people that are not manageable by the way. I they can really undermine and prevent growth and there's all sorts of issues that you always want to be aware of. And then another sign of a manageable attorney is the ones that are manned attorneys that are manageable typically will always talk very enthusiastically about the people they've worked with in the past.
[00:19:45]They they really liked their bosses and they tend to like the, even their peers and they find reasons to idolize people in their firm and the people that they may have worked with. And and that's assigned many times and, have a very good firm, a [00:20:00] very good manageable person.
[00:20:01] They will talk about, what a great job a certain attorney did or what an honor it was to work with that sort of person. And and that's a good sign and. One of the best attorneys I ever hired. I came from a very well-known labor and employment firm and she was very manageable and she was always asking what she could do to be more useful and helpful and and really meant it.
[00:20:21] She would ask, she would ask for feedback all the time she would ask for do you know when in the middle of assignments, if there's something else you could be doing and and then I, but I do remember that when I first interviewed her and even while working with her, she always would talk.
[00:20:35]Put a lot of enthusiasm about the people she was working with and she would always speak, very nicely about the people that she'd worked with in the past and what they taught her. And then she would even talk about the things that I've taught her and talk to other people what I taught her.
[00:20:49] And and it was almost as if she had a great experience with every supervisor she ever worked with. And and that, that was very interesting to me. She just was very all around enthusiastic and [00:21:00] she wanted she, she did everything she could to be liked and thought of highly and and the opinions of others and so forth were very important to her.
[00:21:08] And and this is a sign of a very good attorney. They tend to be someone that's manageable, they have positive interactions. They think positively peop the people they work in with and they they fit in well another thing That I noticed is the most manageable attorneys are often, motivated by something other than money prestige.
[00:21:26] And the problem is an attorney that's motivated by money and prestige will only stick around at a firm to the extent they're paid a lot of money or the firm stays prestigious. And and that's a problem. And and that's, those attorneys tend to be very concerned about themselves.
[00:21:40]They're effected by the opinions of others, which can be good, but mainly it's not always a good thing to, to keep those attorneys around because they w can tend to leave. And and if you, cause you, if you can't meet their needs for money, prestige, they'll become a challenge to manage and they may stop following orders.
[00:21:56] They may start treating supervisors differently and so forth. [00:22:00] And and many partners, associates and others are not manageable because the leave when they're unhappy with their compensation. It's very common, for example for attorneys to start looking for jobs, if they feel like they didn't receive the best bonus, or if they their firm isn't keeping up in the salary or partner doesn't get the compensation they want just one year.
[00:22:20] And and so people will move every few years, sometimes even because they're not getting the compensation they want. And when they don't though, they can withdraw. And it's top reporter in the medians that cut down on their hours and it may stop taking various assignments and so forth.
[00:22:34] And there's nothing wrong with the attorney wanting good compensation, but. Many use it as a reason to stop cooperating, being manageable. And and that's just not a good thing. People that are very concerned with compensation that's how they measure their value.
[00:22:48] It may not be based on their contribution or the work that they're doing. And and certainly there's nothing wrong with being concerned. Yeah. Compensation, but most, very manageable attorneys will do work somewhere [00:23:00] because because of the other things No one thing I explained to like young attorneys all the time is that if you work in a law firm it's really, as an attorney, it's a long-term prospect.
[00:23:09]Someone in their mid twenties, theoretically, it's very common for attorneys to work into their, their eighties and so forth. The attorney general, there was just a point that I think at 68, people just work very very, very long, a long time. And and and so the most management attorneys typically will make not make short-term decisions about leaving and so forth because the compensation they're often motivated by learning supporting the group, working on certain matters representing certain types of clients.
[00:23:36] And they take up a long-term view of their career instead of a short-term which which unmanageable attorneys will do. And the same thing goes about how they approach bad news. Most law firms go through all sorts of ups and downs. They may have concern problems about w different getting sued or crises and so forth.
[00:23:53] And and this happens even with law firms that have been established for decades and and may have [00:24:00] experienced all sorts of bad news cycles. And if a law firm has had problems in the past that's probably pretty normal, but a lot of times the unmanageable attorney will decide that the brand of the firm has all sorts of problems because of a short-term issue.
[00:24:13] And and then we'll end up leaving. So those types of attorneys can be very difficult to manage. And then another big thing is politics and prejudices, and that's certainly a big deal and something that hurts attorneys a lot of times. And and, All attorneys probably have some blood could be used one way or another.
[00:24:32] Some are very liberal, very conservative some don't care, but and there's nothing wrong with an attorney, obviously having political beliefs, but those a lot of times can impact the ability, their ability to work in a law firm. If they believe someone in your firm is too liberal or too conservative the I've seen people leave because of that or because of a comment that they take too liberal accommodate take too conservative and so forth.
[00:24:55] They believe it's too conservative. And so these sorts of things if somebody is allowing that [00:25:00] to interfere with our job, that will cause problems. And I've worked with a lot of people that because of their Beliefs I, I believe made them on manageable. I've met, met women that you know, couldn't or men that weren't manageable by women for whatever reason I've met women that only wanted to work with women.
[00:25:16]Not. People that are deep seated and liberals and conservatives and and all sorts of things. And and so it's just, it depends on the person, but it certainly, if people have very deep seated beliefs like that, it can make them very difficult to manage if you're a group doesn't abide by the, the things that are important to them I've had people quit firms because they don't like, one of the firm's clients and so these sorts of beliefs can hurt attorneys trying to work in your firm and really make them not manageable.
[00:25:44] And then and then the other thing I think that that is very important to understand is that if an attorney is very manageable there, they want to fit in and they want to act dress and behave like other attorneys in your office, meaning both inside and outside of work. So they will the they'll do what they can [00:26:00] to, fit in.
[00:26:00] And I had an attorney once that I was working with, it was a sad story. He was a great attorney. He was first in his class from a very big law school. And and he couldn't get a job and. And when I met him I realized, his hair was down to his shoulders. It was, and there's nothing wrong with that, of course.
[00:26:17] But from the law firm's standpoint having hair Dondre, I'm sorry. Buttocks is there was the firm just that made them uncomfortable, I think. And and I've had people show up, dressing in strange ways or finding bad social media posts with them acting appropriately.
[00:26:33] And so all those sorts of things, an attorney needs to fit the part in order to look manageable and I've seen people, the, from not like their table manners or people in order to have second or third drink at lunch and and and any, anything that kind of shows that you might not be manageable or different and not fit in, and some firms isn't accepted and others, it's actually perfectly fine for people to, dress differently actively, but in others, it's not.
[00:26:58]And then and then, so these are some of the [00:27:00] things that that I, and I like this kind of list. The unmanageable attorneys will often give as reasons for looking at a new positions. Now when you interviewed with them they may say things that, the law firm. Isn't asking me to do work.
[00:27:12] It's taking my abilities and new account. They may talk about and that means many times that they're just the law firms not giving them work for whatever reason. Who knows, but that's assigned that if that happens a year from that probably can to leave her as well.
[00:27:26]Many times they talk about morale being low at the firm. It may No bad news of the firm clients the work travel I even saw someone wants looking for a job because the law firm changed parking garages. And so instead of having to park right in the building, they had to park across the street.
[00:27:44]Sometimes people will complain about health insurance. They they may complain about having to work in the office or not being able to do enough pro bono or the politics, or saying that the law firm is too concerned with hours or, things along those lines or [00:28:00] complaining that's only certain types of people are getting ahead on the firm and those are all issues.
[00:28:04] And the problem with these sorts of issues is that w when people say these things, they're probably gonna say them about your firm too. People are finding things. It looks, may sound a little trivial sometimes salary and bonuses, I believe are trivial.
[00:28:16] Having, being able to work at home more often can be trivial. All these things can be signs that the attorney may be unmanageable. I will let me see if there's any questions real quickly, and then a second here
[00:28:31]questions and I think there are some, give me one second.
[00:28:36]Okay. Oh, we have a lot of questions today. Okay. Wow. This is a lot of questions. Okay the first question, and let me just open up a word document here in a second. First question is it a okay or bad idea to hire a patent attorney that does not have a science degree? Most patent attorneys will have science degrees.
[00:28:55] Sometimes they will go back to school to get to get additional degrees or [00:29:00] additional classes to get that experience. But obviously it depends on the size of the firm. But in general, it's a bad idea to hire a patent attorney without a science. Sometimes math degrees can be used as well.
[00:29:12]But most patent attorneys do need to have a scientific degree just to get just a path passed the patent bar. So that is one of the kind of first things I would say that you need to if you're going to hire a patent attorney they need to be admitted to the patent bar.
[00:29:26] And then in addition to being admitted, the patent bar typically they will need to have some sort of science degree or education in order to be admitted. You're often, it depends on type of patch you're doing as well. Some law firms will be doing patents related to biotech and so forth.
[00:29:42] And others will be doing them related to hard sciences, which are things like, physics and electrical engineering. You took them want to hire a Pat attorney to be in the area that you're at and then how to hire a high cost attorney hire attorney head hunters. It really depends on your firm and the [00:30:00] type of jobs you have.
[00:30:01]So the fees that attorney head hunters charge will differ most of them charge based on. A percentage of the annual salary of the person you hire. So they will charge an example would be 25% of the person's annual salary. And then the headhunter will typically guarantee the person there will stick around for a certain length of time.
[00:30:20] It's usually six months and then the fees are usually prorated and over six months. So if the person leaves at month five, then you get I guess one six pack and they leave a month. One, you would get five, six pack or month two, I guess would be. So that's how that works.
[00:30:35]With that just smear
[00:30:38]Kinda love. Let me see here.
[00:30:41]Okay. Some of these questions are fun. Let me see here. Can a law firm boss only specialize in tourism, blah, blah, blah, other air specializing in other areas? I don't really know how to answer that question. But yes, they could certainly the law firm boss does not need to specialize in the same areas that everyone else does.
[00:30:58]Let me see here. Let me see.
[00:30:59][00:31:00] This is a fun question, but I'll answer this question is how did you spot a lousy liar and a lateral interview? But that's a good question. Typically a bad lawyer in a lateral interview will not talk with a lot of enthusiasm about what they're doing. They will be unfocused a lot of times they won't make eye contact.
[00:31:19]You can also see if the person's had a lot of positions. That's usually not a good sign. Gaps in employment are not a good sign. Unexplained reasons for not working or not a good sign. Anything that kind of shows a lack of commitment and focus. Many times people that have been working on multiple different things is not a good sign.
[00:31:37] And it also depends on what you're hiring for. So if you're hiring for someone to be. Work for businesses or are in someone to work for individuals have a kind of depend on that as well. That's a great question and there's certainly a lot of ways to to spot bad attorneys and interviews.
[00:31:52]Let me just see here. These are fun questions. I don't even, I'm very open ended questions. Why do lawyers leave law [00:32:00] firms? So liars leave law firms typically offer a lot of reasons or they can leave for any times because the hours they don't like the hours they can leave because they don't like the work. They can leave because there's not enough work.
[00:32:12]Many times they leave because they don't like. The people that they're working for other times they will leave because they want to work in a more prestigious firm, which is very common or a firm with more opportunity where they feel like they can advance that's important.
[00:32:27]So there's a lot of reasons that liars the firms, I think there is an article on BCG about this, that I've written that talks a lot about why liars leave law firms. And it gives a, quite a few reasons, but the main ones the best liars leave law firms, because they're trying to advance and trying to get a better job.
[00:32:44] Other lawyers will leave law firms because they want to work in a firm with fewer hours or more opportunity to work on larger clients. Some cases they want to work on a smaller appliance, but there's a lot of reasons. Let's see there.
[00:32:59]If [00:33:00] a law firm staff does not want to return to the office after the pandemic. What can I do? Should they get the chance and the choice? I don't think so. I think that if working in an office is a requirement of your job, you're entitled to have that as a requirement. And and there's nothing wrong with that.
[00:33:16] I know a lot of companies in a require people regardless to be in the office. And there's certainly nothing wrong with a company expecting people to work in the office. You, people do not should not have, excuse me, should not necessarily have that choice. Let me see here.
[00:33:32]Okay that looks about it for today. Let me just see Oh actually there's a couple more questions. Some of these are let me say different questions, Cal. I asked her this one real quickly. This one is is there any difference between a patent agent, a patent attorney and patent analyst?
[00:33:49]That's a good question. A patent agent typically does not need to be an attorney and a patent attorney needs to be an attorney and the patent analyst doesn't need to be admitted to the patent bar. A [00:34:00] patent agent is basically someone that's admitted at the patent bar that can write patents and can argue patents before the patent and trademark office.
[00:34:08]The same thing with a patent attorney, but a patent agent can be admitted. They typically have a scientific background and they can be admitted to the patent bar without without having a law degree. A patent attorney in contrast also takes the patent bar. But also has a lot of grades. So there'll be admitted to the bar.
[00:34:24] And then a patent analyst many times doesn't necessarily need to be admitted as a patent agent. The patent bar. They don't need to be a patent attorney and they can, many times they call them scientific analysts and so forth. And so they'll have a science background and can advise on different aspects of the patent.
[00:34:41]So the people that are doing the patents understand the cutting edge and the technology and so forth related, but they don't necessarily need to be okay. This next one, this next question is how do you write a business plan for a law firm? So I'm assuming this is someone that is looking for our [00:35:00] position as an attorney and the law firm is asked you to.
[00:35:03]Write a business plan. And so what what a business plan is law firms. When they hire lateral attorneys that are more senior, are always looking for the attorney to have plans in terms of their ability to be self-supporting and to bring in their own business. So in order for them to get that information, they typically want a business plan.
[00:35:23] And so a business plan, we'll talk about different types of contacts you may have in the legal community. Things that you've done in the past that are going to, potentially enable you to bring in business clients and other contacts you have, that you could bring over to your new position and that sort of thing.
[00:35:38] And so if you're able to. Write a good business plan. Then many times the law firm will take a leap of faith and hire you based on the business plan. Even if you don't have a large book of business. Other times, even if you have a large book of business, they'll still expect a business plan because they'll want you to be able to bring in more work in the past.
[00:35:56] So there's a bunch of information about business plans and BCG [00:36:00] search and can look at those in that case. Let me just see here. Okay. This next one question. I don't know this looks like maybe a question from a job seeker, but this question is what two partners in a law firm argue about most often and most of the arguments in law firms, wishing partners are about origination credit, meaning who gets who gets credit for bringing in a client repairing a client.
[00:36:24] And and then the other question that they argue about a lot is pay so you know, how much they get paid. So those are the two questions they get, they argue about a lot most of the arguments actually do deal with payment meaning how much of it, money that those partners get at the end of the year.
[00:36:42]Sometimes they also argue about hiring meaning they want to bring certain people in and, whether or not the law firm allow them two nation and the money that they get paid is one of the most important thanks. And then the next question is just say, but partners.
[00:36:59]A [00:37:00] kind of law firm partner be fired. Yes law firm partners can be fired and they are fired all the time. Different firms, fire partners in different ways. Some law firms just, there's one or two people that can just fire an attorney of other people decide to fire them. Other firms, they need to get a committee together, but law firm partners are fired all the time.
[00:37:20] And and then they're also asked to leave and they can be they can lose equity if they don't have enough business. And so being a law firm partner actually is in many cases, much more difficult than being an associate. And you're probably more likely to get fired for non-performance very quickly as a law firm partner than you would be.
[00:37:37]Even as an associate many times. So law firm partners are fired all the time. It depends on the firm too. There are some very. Big firms with very well known partners that where it would be very difficult to fire them, but for a law firm partners involved and anything, negative whether it's doing something dishonest or any type of harassment or any, did they do something [00:38:00] very stupid then?
[00:38:01] Law firm partners are certainly fired all the time. Yes. Okay. I think those are the questions for today and thank you. And we will certainly I've talked to everyone again next week. Thank you.
